Are Virtue & Moir now the ice dancing GOATs?

[VGThuy]

I really do not know how anyone could vote no on this one

Because the other teams in contention are also incredible.

 

[Judy]

I’m not sure about picking a top team of all time. There have been so many changes throughout the years in ice dance. There are legends and deservedly so for their time. I wasn’t watching T&D during their reign but they certainly brought something unique and different for their time. I think V&M are def up there though. There are few teams that would want to do 3 Olympics and be competitive and in medal position each time.

On another note I can’t believe T&D are still skating!

 

[pani]

TD lose to GP and UZ
I think if we will talk about medals in ice dance VM only one who won all titles in juniors and senior competitions, who won 2 individual gold and 1 silver at OG + 2 team events medals, one gold. The only one comletition they didn't win before comeback was GPF and they did it. So it's not a question if we are talking about VM achievement.
Who is near to them? GP with two golds, but with overall 2 medals at OG, KP, but they have bronze-silver-gold, TD with gold and bronze.
As we are talking about impact in ice dance of couse TD did the bigest one, but in most part in professional level. Sad we didn't have World Professional Championships now And of couse we are talking about Dean creativity.
But VM changes face of the ice dance too.
If we are talking about skating and dance quality everyone could have there own opinion. This could be a subject for voting
But i don't think VM have bad skills and they showed versalty, and will see who could be at this level during three Olympic cycles.

 

[Andora]

Where! I love 1997-1998 ice dance chat! 1997 had so many incredible programs, and 1998 had... A&P's masterpiece, and that's about it. I loved K&O's Masquerade Waltz as much as I hated their Carmen. That program just died after the first 1/3, as many stated. I can't fairly judge G&P's Memorial, because while it was effective.... It wasn't a great dance.

Anyways, no sense in talking about who the GOAT of ice dance is for all the discussions above, but obviously V&M are on the level with the exceptional K&P and T&D, and this fan can't really ask for more...

 

[DimaToe]

I would say yes, they medalled at 3 consecutive Olympics. Their style might not be my favorite but their competitive results are hard to deny, they are now the standard to beat in ice dance.

 

[MsZem]

I would say yes, they medalled at 3 consecutive Olympics. Their style might not be my favorite but their competitive results are hard to deny, they are now the standard to beat in ice dance.

So did K/P - and it was difficult for young teams to break through at the time, wasn't it?

 

[DimaToe]

So did K/P - and it was difficult for young teams to break through at the time, wasn't it?

Yes it was, but V/M were world champions after taking several seasons off and beating a pair that set a new stylistic standard for ice dance.

 

[Excidra]

All of this is subjective, but what I can say is that no other ice-dancers have skated in 3 consecutive Olympics like a boss. *flip my wig*

 

[Andora]

V&M are in exceptional company with K&P. Even as pros, K&P were enthralling at times... Also, I just never could get Bestmianova & Bukin...

 

[gk_891]

V&M are in exceptional company with K&P. Even as pros, K&P were enthralling at times... Also, I just never could get Bestmianova & Bukin...

As a child, I remember being ethralled by B&B. Then I went through a very long period of hating them and thinking very strongly that all of their garish expression was an overcompensation for their lack of technical abilities. But in the last few years, I've come to the realization that they had some awesome compulsories. The Kilian was maybe the best example of that as their crossed open choctaw was skated to absolute perfection. And their double choctaw in the rhumba CD was one of the best that I've ever seen. They never really transferred those type of strong skating skills into their free dances though. They were probably capable of better.

 

[Peepsquick]

To me V/M were exceptional at what they did. In no case did they revolutionize Ice Dance. They are the apotheosis of what some call the North-American ice dance style. They didn't invent it.
I don't like the concept of GOAT either, to be honest. So excellent skaters who will be remembered as such but that's all.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

They're the second best of all time at absolute worst.

V/M and P/C met 5 times over the course of 2 years, of which V/M won 4 overall matchups. I don't think 'surpass' is quite the right word.

I think V/M's longevity and the diversity of their competition has to play a role in considering them as GOATs. Adjusting to three senior quads of different rules and favoured styles is no joke. They're as versatile as T/D. Their technique is pretty much unparalleled. Comebacks very rarely pan out so successfully. What they did to reel P/C's 2017/18 momentum back in really was badass. If you take into account impact on the sport and the general public, maybe T/D still have it, but I'd say V/M are GOAT competitors at least. 7 programs in individual Olympic competition, every single one skated to near perfection. That's special.

Comparing across eras is ultimately a fruitless endeavour however and everyone will have their own criteria and preferences. It's still fun to argue!

 

[MsZem]

They're as versatile as T/D.

No, they're not.

Their technique is pretty much unparalleled.

Their technique is excellent. It's not unparalleled by any stretch of the imagination.

This would have been easier to compare if CDs were still part of the competition. When I saw V/M at 2009 TEB, they were clearly superior to everyone there. OTOH, the rest of the podium was Pechalat/Bourzat and the Kerrs, both teams renowned for creativity and performance ability more than for technique.

Comebacks very rarely pan out so successfully. What they did to reel P/C's 2017/18 momentum back in really was badass.

They lost three out of four segments in head to head competition in 2017-18. Obviously, the one they won (with some help from Papadakis's costume) made a huge difference. And they did perform under a lot of pressure in the FD.

I think in the long run V/M will be thought of as one of the best teams ever, but not necessarily the most memorable one. It's too soon to say what kind of impact P/C will have.

 

[Peepsquick]

They're the second best of all time at absolute worst.

V/M and P/C met 5 times over the course of 2 years, of which V/M won 4 overall matchups. I don't think 'surpass' is quite the right word.

I think V/M's longevity and the diversity of their competition has to play a role in considering them as GOATs. Adjusting to three senior quads of different rules and favoured styles is no joke. They're as versatile as T/D. Their technique is pretty much unparalleled. Comebacks very rarely pan out so successfully. What they did to reel P/C's 2017/18 momentum back in really was badass. If you take into account impact on the sport and the general public, maybe T/D still have it, but I'd say V/M are GOAT competitors at least. 7 programs in individual Olympic competition, every single one skated to near perfection. That's special.

Comparing across eras is ultimately a fruitless endeavour however and everyone will have their own criteria and preferences. It's still fun to argue!

Versatile imo is just what everybody did back then: theme hopping. Entertaining for most. For me it's just that.
Talking about the comeback ... it was great but don't forget the age difference between V/M and P/C. Experience and mental preparation were on V/Ms side. They are fierce competitors and had one goal in mind. It did the trick.
As for perfection ...
Comparing eras IS a fruitless endeavor and V/M and P/C to me belong to different eras.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

I did say 'near' perfection for a reason...

See, this is where perspectives can differ so much! The ability to 'theme hop', as you put it, is a big deal to me when evaluating careers overall. Not when judging individual competitions obviously, but mastering different styles is always a big plus in my personal book. It's why I couldn't hope to place P/C yet because there are still so many ways they could and hopefully will branch out.

I remember many, many people thinking that their ages would be a disadvantage when they came back, because they were no longer in their physical prime and entering into a much changed landscape after 2 years away. Always seemed a bit silly to me, they're hardly dinosaurs. Their competitive mettle certainly came in most useful. P/C will have taken a lot from their Olympic experience- I still think missing the TE was a mistake.

As a skater, I genuinely do believe that their overall technique in terms of edges/extension/posture/synchronicity/closeness/athleticism/power/ice coverage/blade control/placement etc as a evenly matched team is the best ever, even if you could argue that other teams or halves of pairs have mastered any of those aspects of skating to a greater level. But as always, YMMV.

 

[VGThuy]

IMO, in a sport like ice dance where base values are similar and execution of elements from two teams are seen as outstanding and at least worthy of +3s based on the rules and both teams' PCS are hitting near 10.00s and there are no jumps, it's hard for me to look at results as the ultimate arbiter of which team is really better because it's really up to the judges at that point and one judge can make a big difference in determining which team won what phase of the competition, which means it truly could have gone either way. So those arguing that because V/M lost phases of the competition to P/C hurts their legacy or whatever doesn't really hold much sway with me. It's not like a race or something where one athlete clearly had to outperform another to win no matter how close it gets. This is more of a case where both teams performed up to their ability in that particular phase of the competition and some judges went one way and some judges went another way.

 

[Peepsquick]

I did say 'near' perfection for a reason...

See, this is where perspectives can differ so much! The ability to 'theme hop', as you put it, is a big deal to me when evaluating careers overall. Not when judging individual competitions obviously, but mastering different styles is always a big plus in my personal book. It's why I couldn't hope to place P/C yet because there are still so many ways they could and hopefully will branch out.

I remember many, many people thinking that their ages would be a disadvantage when they came back, because they were no longer in their physical prime and entering into a much changed landscape after 2 years away. Always seemed a bit silly to me, they're hardly dinosaurs. Their competitive mettle certainly came in most useful. P/C will have taken a lot from their Olympic experience- I still think missing the TE was a mistake.

As a skater, I genuinely do believe that their overall technique in terms of edges/extension/posture/synchronicity/closeness/athleticism/power/ice coverage/blade control etc as a evenly matched team is the best ever, even if you could argue that other teams or halves of pairs have mastered any of those aspects of skating to a greater level. But as always, YMMV.

I'll certainly give you synchronicity, athleticism and power. Closeness has many faces and V/M surely have a great alchemy between them but it is a rather "traditional" one for ice dance: male-female. I have to confess that I am no fan of ballroom dancing, so I am not hung up on the "hyper-sexualized" and "codified" part of it. Honestly, I appreciate a well danced samba, waltz etc. but watching professional ballroom dancers makes me cringe. V/Ms sd this year was on the tipping side for me, close to artificial. P/C project a more interesting closeness for me: emotional and they evolve as one on the ice. It is truly fascinating. There is something very fresh and "new" about it.
Ice coverage and blade control I put squarely in P/C's box. They excel at it.
And you are right ... arguing is fun!

 

[VGThuy]

I think it's interesting you use the term "closeness" when I think V/M are really superior in terms of intricacy, complexity, and closed-holds and having it throughout their program compared to every other team they competed against in 2017-2018. To me those things are a huge sign of how well in-tuned and how much mastery a team has over their skills and with each other. I mean they are no T/D or K/P when it comes to that, but nobody is since ice dance evolved to have a lot more speed in the past 20-30 years.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

Exactly, I absolutely did not mean 'closeness' in terms of chemistry or the relationship on the ice because that's entirely subjective and I don't put much stock in it when judging teams purely on the skating, I meant in terms of closeness of blades and complex holds among the teams they came up with and competed alongside (not in comparison to past eras, don't get me wrong!) I always thought their Latch FD looked slightly odd on them because they were displaying they could do the newer open style and it was just so opposite to their greatest strengths. It was lovely but it took me a while to get used to them skating something much less intricate than usual.

This is why I give ice coverage to V/M easily too. In person, their MR twizzles cover more than half the rink, and they gain as much speed as P/C but with much less open and parallel skating. In terms of blade control, I can probably count on one hand the number of times Scott Moir has stepped on a flat his entire career and you only have to look at what his blades are doing in the lifts instead of Tessa's positions in the air to see that the control is quite extraordinary. The Prince/Moulin Rouge curve lift alone!

 

[Peepsquick]

I think it's interesting you use the term "closeness" when I think V/M are probably superior in terms of intricacy, complexity, and closed-holds and having it throughout their program. To me those things are a huge sign of how well in-tuned and how much mastery a team has over their skills and with each other.

Technical virtuosity in complex holds etc. doesn't always translate for me to closeness. It is wonderful but I miss the fluidity that only ice can give to your movements and P/C have all these minute movements that anchor them together as well as tether them to the music but without breaking the glide. It create for me something truly intimate and magical.
I think that many sports-fan don't see it and might never see it. They don't put the compexity of what they do in the forefront. They try to erase it. They might have succeeded too well! But then, again, I love the diversity in the field and V/M's achievements cannot be denied.
On a different level: I find the concept of GOAT a bit childish and quite frankly insulting to all the great skaters who came before.

 

[forthewin]

I wonder why some P/C ubers are so eager to deny V/M's status here. I mean, P/C have a long long way to go to be even in the conversation of being GOAT. And on a superficial level, doesn't it look better for P/C to lose to the GOAT? So what's the motive really?

 

[MsZem]

I wonder why some P/C ubers are so eager to deny V/M's status here. I mean, P/C have a long long way to go to be even in the conversation of being GOAT. And on a superficial level, doesn't it look better for P/C to lose to the GOAT? So what's the motive really?

My motive is that I don't believe that V/M are the greatest of all time. I also don't think you can compare teams from different eras.

The flip side of your question: why are so many V/M fans so eager to diminish D/W and P/C? Isn't their legacy more impressive if they faced strong competitors?

 

[forthewin]

My motive is that I don't believe that V/M are the greatest of all time. I also don't think you can compare teams from different eras.

The flip side of your question: why are so many V/M fans so eager to diminish D/W and P/C? Isn't their legacy more impressive if they faced strong competitors?

See, this is the difference. V/M don't need their rivals to look good. They're already brilliant on their own for all the work and results. But I guess you can't understand that. Pity. Anyway, I don't even care about the so-called GOAT status. I'm happy as long as V/M are satisfied with their career. So no further argument with you.

 

[MsZem]

Oh no, whatever will I do?

I'll admit I'm curious why P/C (and presumably D/W) require strong competition to give meaning to their achievements, while V/M's career apparently occurred in a vacuum. A void, if you will.

 

[pani]

I wonder why some P/C ubers are so eager to deny V/M's status here. I mean, P/C have a long long way to go to be even in the conversation of being GOAT. And on a superficial level, doesn't it look better for P/C to lose to the GOAT? So what's the motive really?

Agree. I mean th question is between TD (OK, impact in ice dance), KP (because they have 3 medals from 3 OG) and GP (because they have 2 OGM). But this I clear VM only figure skaters who have 5 Olympic medals and Golds, won everything in junior's and seniors levels.
As for PC will see, what future will bring them. I They will be able to skate next 8 years they could also win maybe 4 Olympic medals with all golds (if in 2026 we will have medals for Short programs, Long programs and medal for both programs together) and record counts of WCh gold medals.
But today VM are best Olympic skaters, this the fact.
I even wonder some on did th I thread, because things is very clear at this moment.

 

[Peepsquick]

Sorry, I didn't realize you had to automatically agree that V/M are now dancing GOATs. I read that as a question. Medal count-wise let us crown them ! Long live the king and queen!

 

[Anyasnake]

I have a "serious" question. Kind of, I don't know.
Let's pretend post-Sochi did not happen. What was being said in 2014 ? If you were to rank Davis/White and Virtue/Moir into the "GOATs" list, with the perception and everything ? Who was seen as the best team/skaters if you count both teams achievements from 2006 to 2014 ? (With the idea that both teams were retiring ?)

 

[MsZem]

Agree. I mean th question is between TD (OK, impact in ice dance), KP (because they have 3 medals from 3 OG) and GP (because they have 2 OGM). But this I clear VM only figure skaters who have 5 Olympic medals and Golds, won everything in junior's and seniors levels.

Given that T/D, K/P, and G/P did not have an opportunity to win Olympic team medals, total medals is hardly a reasonable way to determine who is/was best. As for the rest, I'm pretty sure that Torvill and Dean never competed at JW.

There is more to greatness than winning Olympic medals. Remember that Castelli/Shnapir are Olympic medallists, and Kurt Browning is not.

Aljona is, of course, the greatest. And some of her programs have been better dance programs than actual dance programs.

 

[VGThuy]

To be fair to dance teams, dance teams have to comply with a whole lot more rules with regards to holds, restrictions, and footwork requirements and are under a lot more scrutiny for those elements.

 

[pani]

Given that T/D, K/P, and G/P did not have an opportunity to win Olympic team medals, total medals is hardly a reasonable way to determine who is/was best. As for the rest, I'm pretty sure that Torvill and Dean never competed at JW.

There is more to greatness than winning Olympic medals. Remember that Castelli/Shnapir are Olympic medallists, and Kurt Browning is not.

Aljona is, of course, the greatest. And some of her programs have been better dance programs than actual dance programs.

VM have individual 2 OGM, 1 silver. KP bronze-silver-gold. GP 2 golds (and without medal at there first OG).
I can't get why you bring Aljona, but Rodnina is the greatest. But i prefer to talk about pair, not just one skater from the team.
If for you VM are like Castelli/Shnapir it's OK, but this doesn't mean VM are not great You need to notice that VM won with CD and OD and them with SD, this I huge achievement too. And junior level too, which you ignore.