Harvey Weinstein megaproducer and executive ousted over sexual harassment

Tinami Amori said:
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
... first time one does it, you pull your hand away and maybe leave, or stay and try to "change the subject" (although i think such gesture is not very elegant and the guy looses 50 points)... Second time he does it, you GET UP AND LEAVE, or perhaps "put your nails into his tool" and then leave...:D. What this woman wanted is to continue with the date (for whatever reasons) but with, lets call it, different dynamics... And you can't always get what you want, and you leave.... and don't see him again.

I hate it when the girls like a guy, want to have sex with him, but don't like that he is moving too fast or what/how he is doing it or not following her expectations of courtship (aka NOT BEGGING or FLIRTING ENOUGH)... and yet they don't leave, and then complain.
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Read the post after yours with a link to the Laurie Penny article (MacMadam). This woman is an excellent writer, very thought-provoking and well worth the visit. I think you will enjoy this and other things she's written ("The Unforgiving Minute"+).
 
cocotaffy said:
So instead of constantly putting the burden on women and we should educate ours girls, which again had already been done, how about educating ours boys boundaries instead. Sorry for venting but I'm really getting tired of those counter productive arguments which won't help change men and women dynamics for the better but just will keep the status quo.
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^ ^ ^

This.

(Bolding mine.)
 
cocotaffy said:
TSo you get to hear those wisdom tips such as "my grandma told when a man touches my butt in the subway to take his hand and say out loud Whose is it ?" Well guess what, I can bet every woman has been given those kind of tips.
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Every woman has been told stuff like this while at the same time being schooled not to speak up, make waves, or be "rude." Which makes it even more bullshit than it already is since we not only put the burden on women but then we subtly undermine them when they attempt to do what we told them too.
 
Scrufflet said:
Read the post after yours with a link to the Laurie Penny article (MacMadam). This woman is an excellent writer, very thought-provoking and well worth the visit. I think you will enjoy this and other things she's written ("The Unforgiving Minute"+).
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The only feeling it provoked in me is anger at the writer, although I agree with maybe few comments about “media’s sensationalization of events for sake of readership” and “hypocrisy of promoting sexual freedom and shaming women at the same time”.

Don’t agree with:
- connecting women’s equality to idea of state paid contraception and abortions. Sex is pleasure – take responsibility and pay for your own pleasure and outcomes of such. If a female can’t afford a rubber, make the guy buy one, if he does not… then simply DO NOT have sex, no one dies…. and NOBODY must pay for YOUR PLEASURE, just don't buy a candy bar, buy a condom.

- the idea that it is ok for a man to be part of collective punishment, to be put through the grinder, even for minor offense of a “bad date”, because women had to “suffer so much all these years”. hate the message "it's ok for them to suffer a bit now, they were the in power for so long"..

- Blaming men for making non-violent sexual advances which a woman may not like, while on date she willingly accepted. “Date expectations” and “acceptable display of sexuality on a date” is subjective and individual. All it means is that they should MATCH between the two people who are out on a date. If behavior of the other does not meet your ideals or expectations – LEAVE.

If “society” and ‘women/other partner” want the other side to behave like “a lady or a gentleman”, then bring back the Culture of Gentlemanship, which means bringing back many cultural norms of European Gentry and yes, oh such scary word “Aristocracy”. In Multi-Cultural and Classless societies the norms for “courtship” are subjective, and the reason is self-explanatory. Ideas of “proper courtship/behavior on a date/expression of sexuality” do vary between, as examples, Latin, Asian, Eastern-European, African community, and! by social class which can be linked to upbringing… and it is often a reality, not a stereo type.

So unless “mixed societies” agree on what’s proper courtship, and literally introduce guidelines to the younger generation, there will always be a conflict.

There is a happy middle in sexual behavior in public somewhere between “Payton’s Place”, “La Dolce Vita”, “J-Lo’s fat arse in your face” and “Rapper culture”.
- http://www.imcdb.org/i352399.jpg
- https://cdn.flickeringmyth.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/GAC_LaDolceVita.jpg
- http://www.wetpaint.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/jennifer-lopez-iheartradio-butt-1024x1024.jpg
- https://i49.vbox7.com/o/0f5/0f5cc6d90.jpg

There are 3rd World countries, where “rape” is a form of punishment, and a norm, even raping animals….and people from such countries do immigrate to the West and it leaks into the “culture”... and so is "behavior and dating norms" of the lower classes..
https://www.snopes.com/limpopo-brothers-crocodile-assault/
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170818-15-moroccan-boys-gang-rape-rabid-donkey/

The other reason I don’t like this article, is because while it has interesting points, they are ALL laced with “left wing lean”. And the fact that the coverage of the "issue" is on top of the news, because it covers "successful, mostly white men". The issues of immigrants from 3rd world countries contributing to increase of VIOLENT RAPE is swept under the rug, yet it is a huge problem, just not covered by main-stream media which is left leaning.

Violent rape coverage should take priority over "bad dates" or "bad experience on a casting couch".
 
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RFOS said:
While she maybe could have communicated better, the way he's described as behaving definitely doesn't seem appropriate at all to me. It doesn't sound like he asked before just assuming he could do things like repeatedly putting her hand on his penis after she had taken it away, sticking his hands in her mouth (and following her when she went away, without checking in about why she was moving away and seeing if his behavior was OK with her). Not saying no doesn't mean yes. This is all based on the theory I've learned and the way I would want to be treated, because I'm not exactly practically experienced in this area. :shuffle: I'm sure there are norms that can be set and understood by both people when they have had experience with each other before, but for the first time with someone it doesn't seem right to me for him to just assume he's entitled to do anything he wants.
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If you willing get naked with someone and perform certain acts. The person is going to make certain assumptions. It's a sexual invitation and men can get carried away so if NO isn't being said!!!!!!!

Now this does not mean a woman shouldn't still be able to say no or man say no. I.e I got naked so I have to give him everything he wants!

But if you willingly allow yourself to get into the situation you at the very least have to SAY no. Or I am willing to do this and not that.

I find suggesting she is a victim infantalizes women and suggests no responsibility on our parts.
 
becca said:
I find suggesting she is a victim infantalizes women and suggests no responsibility on our parts.
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You open up a huge can of worms with this statement. There is often a power imbalance between men and women, and women continue to be sexually objectified and influenced by that sexual objectification. I would not say that this 'infantalizes' women, but rather that it diminishes us and denies us of personhood - not the same thing as infantalization.

As to responsibility, I can't speak specifically to the Weinstein case because I found it to so overwhelming and troubling that I had to stop following it.

But women are not responsible when men behave badly/inappropriately towards them due to the perception that they are sexual objects and lesser humans who don't mean what they say or say what they mean - no actually means yes. There's long been a perception that women chatter and aren't to be taken seriously, while men talk about the important affairs of the day and merit respect when they speak. I do believe this has changed for the better in past decades, but equality between the sexes has not yet been achieved. There is still a perception that women should please men and be nice to them - we must not frighten or offend, and we must take care not to puncture that fragile balloon of the male ego!

IMO your position veers closely to the view that women are responsible when they get assaulted or raped if they are wearing a mini-skirt or showing cleavage. Perhaps I'm thinking this because you've taken this stance in other discussion over the years?

Men don't get a pass for bad behavior just because they're men. Most of them (or at least I'd like to think most of them) are capable of behaving respectfully towards women providing that they understand women are people. It's sad that I even have to say it today, as women have had to fight for that personhood for centuries. On that front, it seems to have always been one step forward and two steps back.

In fact, I think (or at least hope) that many men would prefer to live in a world where women are respected. How could a man who is respectful of women as people not be horrified to share a sex with Harvey Weinstein?
 
Japanfan said:
You open up a huge can of worms with this statement. There is often a power imbalance between men and women, and women continue to be sexually objectified and influenced by that sexual objectification. I would not say that this 'infantalizes' women, but rather that it diminishes us and denies us of personhood - not the same thing as infantalization.

As to responsibility, I can't speak specifically to the Weinstein case because I found it to so overwhelming and troubling that I had to stop following it.

But women are not responsible when men behave badly/inappropriately towards them due to the perception that they are sexual objects and lesser humans who don't mean what they say or say what they mean - no actually means yes. There's long been a perception that women chatter and aren't to be taken seriously, while men talk about the important affairs of the day and merit respect when they speak. I do believe this has changed for the better in past decades, but equality between the sexes has not yet been achieved. There is still a perception that women should please men and be nice to them - we must not frighten or offend, and we must take care not to puncture that fragile balloon of the male ego!

IMO your position veers closely to the view that women are responsible when they get assaulted or raped if they are wearing a mini-skirt or showing cleavage. Perhaps I'm thinking this because you've taken this stance in other discussion over the years?

Men don't get a pass for bad behavior just because they're men. Most of them (or at least I'd like to think most of them) are capable of behaving respectfully towards women providing that they understand women are people. It's sad that I even have to say it today, as women have had to fight for that personhood for centuries. On that front, it seems to have always been one step forward and two steps back.

In fact, I think (or at least hope) that many men would prefer to live in a world where women are respected. How could a man who is respectful of women as people not be horrified to share a sex with Harvey Weinstein?
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I have never taken the position suggestive clothing means okay to rape someone.


If a man got naked with a woman and freely did certain things and never said he was uncomfortable with anything and later cried assault because the woman didn't notice he was uncomfortable. Come on the man would be criticized.

If she had gotten naked and voiced she was only comfortable with doing such and such I would never say it would be okay to proceed.

But for a woman to freely go on a date, freely get naked, freely engage in certain sexual activities and Never voice that she is uncomfortable with anything?

Yes the actor was using her but I think she wanted to use him too cuz he was a big celebrity.

He was not in a position of power but her date. Folks are not mind readers and while you would hope someone is sensitive and noticing things a fully arroused man may very well need to hear stop.

I am sorry but calling this woman a victim does infantalize women and suggests we are China Dolls with no responsibility for our own sexual behavior. I think it sets women back.
 
I agree with parts of what Tinami and Becca are saying. I don’t think the goal is to infantilize women, rather, I think it is being stuck in a groove. In a man and woman conflict, the man is always wrong. Because history.
 
snoopy said:
I agree with parts of what Tinami and Becca are saying. I don’t think the goal is to infantilize women, rather, I think it is being stuck in a groove. In a man and woman conflict, the man is always wrong. Because history.
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I don't think it's the goal but it is the consequence. Women cannot have it both ways if we want the right to be free sexual adults we need to take responsibility for our own sexual choices.

This woman chose to have sexual acts with this guy. Freely. She also decided not to clearly communicate what made her comfortable and uncomfortable.

You cannot be angry with someone if you don't communicate.

I'm sorry this will set sexual relations back. And hurt real harassment issues if we can now call it rape if a woman doesn't have a great experience in bed. Even if she doesn't say anything to the man.

I am sorry but thus ticks me off.

1. I absolutely don't think woman wears a sexy dress and goes to someone's apartment that he gets to do what he wants.

2. I don't even think the two get naked he gets to do what he wants and it becomes the woman's fault.

3. But I do think you get naked and engage in sexual acts you have a responsibility to be clear if there is something you don't want to do.

It makes me super angry people think this is assault because if that is our definition of assault people won't take it seriously.

Totally reasonable for her to say afterwards what she didn't like but to call it assault, make it public and ruin his life? And for people to suggest she bears no responsibility for the miscommunication? Or for having a bad experience?
 
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snoopy said:
I agree with parts of what Tinami and Becca are saying. I don’t think the goal is to infantilize women, rather, I think it is being stuck in a groove. In a man and woman conflict, the man is always wrong. Because history.
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If the man is always wrong, then why are so many victims of actual assault not believed?

Plenty of people have pushed back on the Aziz Ansara case and said it was miscommunication and/or a bad date. He hasn't lost his career. I don't think he's even gotten fewer people to think he's datable.

I just don't see this dynamic of "now all men are guilty without due process."
 
Well I skipped some words. Some people (some people on this thread) always think the man is wrong. They are the inverse of AA who always thinks the women are wrong.
 
For the most part I support the Me Too Movement but I think they need to be careful.

There are women quite capable of taking advantage unfortunately.

I tend to personally go case by case.

I am saying in the Aziz case it shouldn't be up for debate in terms of it being assault.
 
screech said:
He's a nominee, though in the best actor category, and those two are usually done right after one another.
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Nevertheless - and it's possible that he may become the only male to ever receive 4 Oscars for acting performances to this point, equalling Katharine Hepburn who won all 4 of hers in the Best Actress category.
 
One of the best things of last year's award season was Brie Larson (who presented a couple of awards to him) refusing to applaud Casey's win, and afterwards saying her decision to not clap for him 'speaks for itself'.

I wouldn't be surprised if they got a previous best actress winner to present.

I'd actually like if they in the future did something like they did in 2009(?), where they had previous winners in a category present to the same category (a group of best actress winners including the previous year's winner, presenting that year's best actress, same for the other acting categories). I still remember Marion Cotillard announcing Kate Winslet's name.
 
Japanfan said:
Advantage of what, and for what purpose?
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Well in this case revenge. Do you really want to argue that no woman ever lied about something like that ever?

In this case she is telling her version which IMO not assault and hurting him career wise without even having to give her own name.
 
becca said:
Well in this case revenge. Do you really want to argue that no woman ever lied about something like that ever?
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No, but it's important to acknowledge that women who bring forth sexual harassment or rape allegations are often shamed, ridiculed and disbelieved. There is a reason that rape is a highly under-reported crime. A woman who lies about it would only do so to achieve a certain advantage.

In this case, it appears there is safety in numbers.

And it's also important to acknowledge that men have long been allowed to get away with bad behaviour just because they are men. In many parts of the world a man still has the right to 'rape' his wife.

And what is the percentage of women who lie about harassment/rape as compared to women who are harassed/raped (including those who don't report it)? Very small.

To give an analogy, some people might fabricate a theft to obtain insurance money. But those are probably few in comparison to victims of actual theft. When someone reports a theft, do we automatically assume that they are lying?

There is a presumption in your view that women can't be trusted to tell the truth. This reflects outdated views that women are not to be trusted and are unstable ('hystero' means uteris and is part of both hyserectomy and hysteria). This brings to mind the theory of the humours, which postulated that women's female parts were cold and needed male sperm to warm them up (sorry I don't have a source, it was something I read a long time ago that stuck with me). How far have we really come since then?
 
Japanfan said:
No, but it's important to acknowledge that women who bring forth sexual harassment or rape allegations are often shamed, ridiculed and disbelieved. There is a reason that rape is a highly under-reported crime. A woman who lies about it would only do so to achieve a certain advantage.

In this case, it appears there is safety in numbers.

And it's also important to acknowledge that men have long been allowed to get away with bad behaviour just because they are men. In many parts of the world a man still has the right to 'rape' his wife.

And what is the percentage of women who lie about harassment/rape as compared to women who are harassed/raped (including those who don't report it)? Very small.

To give an analogy, some people might fabricate a theft to obtain insurance money. But those are probably few in comparison to victims of actual theft. When someone reports a theft, do we automatically assume that they are lying?

There is a presumption in your view that women can't be trusted to tell the truth. This reflects outdated views that women are not to be trusted and are unstable ('hystero' means uteris and is part of both hyserectomy and hysteria). This brings to mind the theory of the humours, which postulated that women's female parts were cold and needed male sperm to warm them up (sorry I don't have a source, it was something I read a long time ago that stuck with me). How far have we really come since then?
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Huh? Where did I say that women cannot be trusted to tell the truth. I said sometimes women lie and that is more a case of me wanting to look at facts. I would be careful labeling someone a rapist. But I wouldn't condemn an accuser.

What I said is this woman's own account does not indicate rape. She never told him no or explained what she was or was not comfortable with.

Based on HER OWN ACCOUNT this isn't rape or assault now if she had said I told him to stop and he refused I would feel different.
 
becca said:
In this case she is telling her version which IMO not assault and hurting him career wise without even having to give her own name.
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Um, how has his career been hurt?

As was mentioned in the article I posted a link to, this criticism is particularly lame as it is clear that most women can see the difference between sexual assault and a bad date.
 
MacMadame said:
Um, how has his career been hurt?

As was mentioned in the article I posted a link to, this criticism is particularly lame as it is clear that most women can see the difference between sexual assault and a bad date.
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He has been criticized and called names he misses an award show.
This was a public shaming and no not everyone can tell the difference.

Look my biggest anger about this is what it says about us women that we are victims nor capable of standing up or speaking up for ourselves.

I have a huge problem with this. The Account has her talking about how he gave her white wine she would have preferred red.
 
Does anyone remember this sleazy song Blurred lines some years back ? I can't even believe a production company thought "yeah let's produce this" Anyway, I stumble about this little funny extract from a British panel show where they discuss it. I love Richard Ayoade (the one with the brown suit and thick glasses) ironic comment about consent just before they play the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htYOgDs6ROE
 
Margaret Atwood's thoughts has apparently raised some backlash but I do believe she brings up some excellent points regarding what do we do from here now that we recognize how the legal system has not afforded many women justice so they are now choosing to by-pass it in some cases:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/15/margaret-atwood-feminist-backlash-metoo

I do think her critics also have a point about less powerful women not having access or recourse and thus the #metoo movement provided them with an avenue to seek justice that they could not before.
 
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