Harvey Weinstein megaproducer and executive ousted over sexual harassment

aftershocks

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@Japanfan, Happy New Year and good luck. I don't feel the need to explain what you are misreading or perceiving differently than I intended.

As far as what would change things, that's the f'ing $100 million dollar question. That's maybe one of the reasons why we are here in this universe going through so much hell, pain, joy, wonderment, and uplift counterbalanced by despair, etc.

Maybe take a listen at Jeff Bridges' Golden Globes acceptance speech after he was awarded the Cecil B. DeMille career achievement honor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsWQARXR0ig

Jeff Bridges is a humble genius, and a kind, loving, cool, well-adjusted, fabulous human being who believes it's wonderful to be alive, and that it's possible for us all to do our part as 'trim-tabs' in changing our course away from prevalent disaster. He's certainly doing his part. And he 'tagged'/ challenged us all in his uplifting speech Sunday night. Think about what that means in your own life. I don't have the answers. I'm still trying to pose and solve some of my own confounding questions. :)
 

gkelly

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14,501
Sexual harassment is pretty cut-and-dried.
Not really. There are plenty of behaviors that would be considered flirting if welcomed by the recipient and harrassment if not welcomed.

Harrassers tend to be people who don't have the social skills to read reactions, or perhaps more often people who feel entitled to behave as they wish and don't even care how anyone else feels about it.
 

aftershocks

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There are plenty of behaviors that would be considered flirting if welcomed by the recipient and harrassment if not welcomed.
Right. And even sometimes halfway cautiously welcomed, until alarm bells go off when one realizes the sexy flirter is actually married and still has the swaggering gall to relentlessly pursue and entice. I suppose there might also be a gray area where flirting can be jovial and non-serious between two parties who know each other, and know its in fun and not serious. OTOH, flirting can be a dangerous game when one party is innocent and vulnerable and the other is a serial flirt who likes to tease and provoke, but has no intention of following through. So many things aren't cut-and-dried that we think should be.
 

Japanfan

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Not really. There are plenty of behaviors that would be considered flirting if welcomed by the recipient and harassment if not welcomed.
So determine if the behavior would be welcome first, as in ask.

Otherwise a hands-off policy is probably prudent in today's climate, barring standard handshakes in the office.

I suppose there might also be a gray area where flirting can be jovial and non-serious between two parties who know each other, and know its in fun and not serious. OTOH, flirting can be a dangerous game when one party is innocent and vulnerable and the other is a serial flirt who likes to tease and provoke, but has no intention of following through. So many things aren't cut-and-dried that we think should be.
So, only flirt when you know it's okay with the other person.

Serial flirts may have to learn to restrain themselves. Should not be too difficult.
OTOH, flirting can be a dangerous game when one party is innocent and vulnerable and the other is a serial flirt who likes to tease and provoke, but has no intention of following through. So many things aren't cut-and-dried that we think should be.
If it's a game, a person can choose not to play it.
 
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watchthis!!

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Possibly. But I think actors still jump at a chance to work on a Woody Allen film, and the public still flocks to Woody Allen films (myself being an exception).
That's changing, as @Nell411 posted about with Allen's recent film not even being released that. His films before that:

Wonder Wheel (2017) lost 10 million (maybe much more, adding in the publicity budget), making 15 million on a 25 million budget.

Café Society (2016) had a budget of 30 million and made 43 million, but if the publicity costs are fairly equal to production costs, then the movie lost 17 million.

Irrational Man (2015) had a budget of 11 million and made 27 million. If publicity took the budget to 22 million, the movie made a profit, but not a ginormous one.

Before that was Magic In The Moonlight and Blue Jasmine, which did have movie-goers flocking to them, both making healthy profits. But it does appear that Allen is on a downward spiral.
 

Tinami Amori

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17,172
If it's a game, a person can choose not to play it.
:respec: exactly.

Not really. There are plenty of behaviors that would be considered flirting if welcomed by the recipient and harassment if not welcomed.
In terms of legal issues, my take is: initial flirting with socially acceptable words is not harassment, unless declined and pursue continues. initial physical flirting that involves touching must stay within socially acceptable norm, kiss on the hand, helping with a coat, taking by the hand to dance, greeting kiss, etc. The key issue is - to find the right company of people who share your concept of what proper initial flirting is. Once you go outside of "your culture and your level" that's when problems and misunderstandings start.
 

MacMadame

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Harrassers tend to be people who don't have the social skills to read reactions, or perhaps more often people who feel entitled to behave as they wish and don't even care how anyone else feels about it.
I don't agree that harassers TEND to be people with poor social skills. Most harassment cases are of someone in power exerting their power over those with less power. It's a form of bullying and it's not a result of poor social skills. These people know *exactly* what they are doing which is why they take steps to make sure they don't get caught.

I'm not saying that there are no cases where an accusation of harassment of any kind turned out to be someone with poor social skills. But it's pretty rare. Most of the time you can tell if someone is clueless because the power imbalance isn't there.
 

aftershocks

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So, only flirt when you know it's okay with the other person.

Serial flirts may have to learn to restrain themselves. Should not be too difficult.
What world do you live in??? :lol: Only flirting when you know it's okay with the other person is alnost like saying don't blush until you ask yourself permission. :rofl: Have you ever experienced what has been perhaps inadequately called, 'love at first sight'? :p

One person's 'not too difficult,' can be another person's anguished can of worms. It depends on the situation and the personalities involved.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/flirting
"Flirting is an activity... driven by emotions and instinct rather than logical thought..."

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/147470491401200305
Covert Sexual Signaling: Human Flirtation and Implications...

https://people.howstuffworks.com/flirting.htm

If it's a game, a person can choose not to play it.
Yep, as I said flirting can be a dangerous game under certain circumstances, as research on this human behavior confirms. One can choose or not choose to do a lot of things, which still doesn't make human behavior and human interaction cut-and-dried.
 

Japanfan

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What world do you live in??? :lol:
A world in which (I hope) women are becoming increasingly aware that it is their right to not be touched inappropriately, nor catcalled or whistled at or called demeaning names. It is their right to be respected and treated as full human beings. At the same time, I hope and think more men are becoming aware of the same thing.

Only flirting when you know it's okay with the other person is alnost like saying don't blush until you ask yourself permission. :rofl:
That depends on how you define flirting.

It it means calling a woman 'cutie-pie' or 'sweetheart', or patting a woman on the butt, or staring at a woman's chest while in conversation with her or at the office water cooler, men are fully capable of learning not to do those things.

If you're talking about more subtle forms of flirting, I think those who could perhaps be avoided as well. But simply being charming could be seen as flirting, and in some cases, might not be offensive at all.

But I don't know, I've never really known how to flirt, TBH. It always seemed pretentious to me.

Have you ever experienced what has been perhaps inadequately called, 'love at first sight'? :p
Yes, fortunately or unfortunately depending on my mood on a certain day.

The only 'flirting' involved was the man in question inviting me to have a cup of coffee with him and later asking if he could spend his vacation time with me.

One person's 'not too difficult,' can be another person's anguished can of worms. It depends on the situation and the personalities involved.
I'd appreciate if you could give some examples.

"Flirting is an activity... driven by emotions and instinct rather than logical thought..."
nature's most basic command—find a good mate and multiply.
Ah, yes, there's the tried (and not true) biological argument.

Plenty of women and men are choosing not to multiply, or only have one or two children. And plenty are choosing to live single as well.
 
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aftershocks

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A world in which (I hope) women are becoming increasingly aware that it is their right to not be touched inappropriately,
I'm commenting on your reference to flirting, not to sexual harassment and sexual abuse. The topic of conversation turned to the varieties and vagaries of flirting, not specifically addressing touching someone inappropriately. And the conversation is also about the fact that human behaviors and life in general are not cut-and-dried.

It it means calling a woman 'cutie-pie' or 'sweetheart', or patting a woman on the butt, or staring at a woman's chest while in conversation with her or at the office water cooler, men are fully capable of learning not to do those things.

If you're talking about more subtle forms of flirting, I think those who could perhaps be avoided as well. But simply being charming could be seen as flirting, and in some cases, might not be offensive at all.

But I don't know, I've never really known how to flirt, TBH. It always seemed pretentious to me.
The observations in your first paragraph are fairly obvious. And yes, there should be more awareness brought to appropriate forms of interaction in the workplace. As far as 'more subtle forms of flirting,' and what flirting behavior is about, I provided a few links it might be helpful for you to look at. For someone who admits they don't know how to flirt and who feels flirting is 'pretentious,' hmmm, you seem very CoP judgmental about the whole topic. :drama:

I'm not really sure what you are trying to argue in the first place. Going back to your first contention, nope, human behaviors are not cut-and-dried.

I'd appreciate if you could give some examples.
Read up on it @Japanfan if you're that pressed and concerned. Call some experts on the topic. Or maybe even ask your friends and family for real-life examples if you've never experienced, witnessed or participated in 'flirting' yourself. :duh: Good grief! There are relationship movies galore to watch too.

Ah, yes, there's the tried (and not true) biological argument.
Plenty of women and men are choosing not to multiply, or only have one or two children. And plenty are choosing to live single as well.
If you want to discount the scientific research written for a popular audience, fine. Human culture and behavior is always evolving and adapting, which does not discount human interaction studies. I don't think the referenced comment from the article I linked is trying to make a 'biological argument.' The researchers' findings are simply being presented.

You've already admitted you don't know anything about flirting, yet you claim to know that what you are terming 'a biological argument' about flirting is not true. :COP: :drama:
 

Japanfan

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I'm not really sure what you are trying to argue in the first place. Going back to your first contention, nope, human behaviors are not cut-and-dried.
I am arguing that certain behaviors are cut and dried, and hence easy to identify. Not that all human behaviors are cut and dried, which is certainly not the case.

Calling a woman names like 'cutie pie' and patting women on the butt, cat-calling and whistling, are offensive behaviors that might be conflated with flirting.

If you want to discount the scientific research written for a popular audience, fine. Human culture and behavior is always evolving and adapting, which does not discount human interaction studies. I don't think the referenced comment from the article I linked is trying to make a 'biological argument.' The researchers' findings are simply being presented.

I don't think the referenced comment from the article I linked is trying to make a 'biological argument.'
How is the following not a biological argument?

nature's most basic command—find a good mate and multiply.
You've already admitted you don't know anything about flirting, yet you claim to know that what you are terming 'a biological argument' about flirting is not true. :COP: :drama:
I'm plenty aware of how flirting (both overt and subtle) occurs among other people.

And I do know a fair bit about research methodologies, and know that a lot of studies written for a popular audience have questionable methodologies. With regard to gender in particular, which is a loaded topic and prone to bias for even the most astute of scientists.

I know a fair bit about the debate on biological bases for gender/gendered behavior.

And I do know that the claim that "nature's most basic command—find a good mate and multiply" is highly debatable (made obvious by plummeting birth rates throughout the world ever since women have had choices about their reproduction).

Your posts bring to mind the man that wails "but I can't even pat a woman on the back any more!" I first encountered that in the 80s, when awareness of sexual harassment was increasing, and my boyfriend said exactly that.

I'm sure you are not intentionally making a case to defend such a man, but that's how it is reading to me.

All I'm saying is that certain behaviors that might be classified as flirting in the past, or even today, now constitute sexual harassment, cut and dried.

I don't think you would disagree. The points you are making are coming from a different vantage point.
 

aftershocks

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Your posts bring to mind the man that wails "but I can't even pat a woman on the back any more!" I first encountered that in the 80s, when awareness of sexual harassment was increasing, and my boyfriend said exactly that.
Wow what a freakish imagination you have. :p I'm waiting for your treatise on The Cut-and-Dried Vagaries of Flirting with Danger on the Internet. :lol: But seriously, I'm not your boyfriend. :drama:

I do know a fair bit about research methodologies, and know that a lot of studies written for a popular audience have questionable methodologies... I know a fair bit about the debate on biological bases for gender/gendered behavior...

And I do know that the claim that "nature's most basic command—find a good mate and multiply" is highly debatable (made obvious by plummeting birth rates throughout the world ever since women have had choices about their reproduction).
Good for you. Suddenly you're a knowledgeable expert. :barrel Sure, it's entirely likely that original scientific research is sometimes questionably interpreted and summarized for a popular audience, using generalized layman's language. But if you want to get academic about it, read the more precise and documented scholarly journal articles. :yawn:

I'm sure you are not intentionally making a case to defend such a man, but that's how it is reading to me.
Maybe you should stop misreading and presuming altogether, cut-and dried. That 'shouldn't be too difficult.' :COP:

All I'm saying is that certain behaviors that might be classified as flirting in the past, or even today, now constitute sexual harassment, cut and dried.
Since you already said you don't know how to flirt, and you think flirting is 'pretentious,' please leave off with your 'categorical' pronouncements about flirting.

The points you are making are coming from a different vantage point.
Ah, so please stop with your tilting at windmills in my direction! You have every right to enjoy seeing what you wish to see, or not, and believing what your perceptions allow. Fight your own imaginary dragons and leave me out of kerfuffle.

I prefer engaging with Javi's version of Don Quixote! :watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqIsJ2l5Ggs
 
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