What will Dance field look like in 2018-19?

[chapis]

Beside on their body types, they'll never have the effortlessness or ease, IMO.

Madison´s body has been compared to Tessa´s body and I think Tessa´s skating is effortless.

 

[casken]

Madison´s body has been compared to Tessa´s body and I think Tessa´s skating is effortless.

I'm talking about the proportions of the partners to each other.

 

[chapis]

I'm talking about the proportions of the partners to each other.

Well, it is even weirder, I never thought that there is a problem with Madison and Zach proportions to each other, especially now that acrobatic lifts are not important anymore, but I guess you understand yourself.

 

[casken]

Well, it is even weirder, I never thought that there is a problem with Madison and Zach proportions to each other, especially now that acrobatic lifts are not important anymore, but I guess you understand yourself.

It's not just lifts, I'm talking ease of partnering through holds and connecting movements too.

 

[VGThuy]

If the Shibs do continue, I wonder if they'll think about changing training locations just to get something fresh. I know they seek out outside help all of the time and pretty much put themselves in the driver's seat in the past three seasons but it'd be nice if they didn't have to work so hard. They could still be involved with the creative process but it would also be nice to have a coach have a stronger idea for them and what they should be developing as well. It's one thing to get outside contributors for a week or so before the season and have a refresher session in the middle of the season, but it's another to have them with you all day every day. I used to get annoyed when it seemed everybody mentioned Evgeny Platov every time there was a suggestion for a coaching change for anybody, but now I see what people mean looking at his past work before his teams left him.

I admit that I do wonder if they'll be an issue if one of them wants to continue and the other one doesn't and if the one who decides to stay would have issues finding a partner. Right now, I really think they're just thinking about this season and will figure out what they want to do after Worlds. I said I wouldn't be surprised if they continued to 2022, and I still wouldn't be surprised, but another four years is a big commitment and they both are showing clear interests in both skating-related and non-skating related (or slightly skating-related) endeavors. I know I'd be itching to hone new skills in other fields that I was already interested in going if given the opportunities.

 

[slipchuk]

I think if the Shibutanis win an individual Olympic medal there is a good chance they will go pro. Their chances of a future World title are not great with Papadakis & Cizeron almost certain to continue and Hubbell & Donohue on the rapid rise, and despite being marginally older than the Shibutanis clearly having more potential improvement ahead than the Shibs have at this point. However if they dont win an individual Olympic medal I think they will continue, and possibly all the way to 2022 depending how things go. I think it all depends if they get that bronze in the individual at the Games or not.

 

[kittysk8ts]

What does H/D need to win over P/C? What are their shortcomings compared to P/C?

I think speed and flow. Judges LOVE speed. IMHO, P/C currently have the best of both.

 

[VGThuy]

I think if the Shibutanis win an individual Olympic medal there is a good chance they will go pro. Their chances of a future World title are not great with Papadakis & Cizeron almost certain to continue and Hubbell & Donohue on the rapid rise, and despite being marginally older than the Shibutanis clearly having more potential improvement ahead than the Shibs have at this point. However if they dont win an individual Olympic medal I think they will continue, and possibly all the way to 2022 depending how things go. I think it all depends if they get that bronze in the individual at the Games or not.

I disagree with you regarding what you see as the Shibs being limited compared to H/D, but then I find most have underestimated how much the Shibs can improve as a team.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Montreal is amazing and the mix of French and North Am schools works so well but V/M and P/C are generational talents and not just products of MTL.

Agree. Both teams were already uber talented when they went to MTL. But my dear lord both also became THAT much better after moving to MTL.

 

[Spiralgraph]

"Clearly having more potential improvement than the Shibs have at this point"

That is your opinion and not a statement of fact. As close as Nationals was, it seems likely to me that it'll be very difficult for any USA team to build a dynasty (that is stay as nationals champs for 4 years through to the next Olympics in 2022)
I'd guess that each competition will be judged on who competes best for that event. I'm hoping that happens next month. To count the Shibs out (or Chock and Bates, for that matter) is short sighted indeed. As we saw very recently ice is slippery and final results are hard to predict.

Go Shibs!

 

[GreenGan]

If the Shibs do continue, I wonder if they'll think about changing training locations just to get something fresh.

I think it'd be better for them. But something fresh.. What do you have in mind ? Krylova/Camerlengo ? Carol Lane ? Morozov ? Besides those 3, and the only reasonnable choice I see is Krylova, I don't have much idea for a coaching team change.

I actually want to see how Abachkina/Thauron performs and how they improve. I think they are one of the few young couple that are interesting and have potential right now, with Soucisse/Firus. Hawayek/Baker are also on the line but it's nothing new and as crowded as the US dance is..

 

[SLIVER]

Agree. Both teams were already uber talented when they went to MTL. But my dear lord both also became THAT much better after moving to MTL.

Yes what they did for P/C is unprecedented in the history of coaching IMO. Just watch P/C at the gp events in 2013 leading into 2014 euros/worlds, the improvement in one season is super natural.
Imo that will always be MTL's biggest legacy, I'd love to know how they turned a young talented couple (plenty of those) into skating Gods in 12 mnths, just nuts..

 

[Spiralgraph]

I'm also wondering about Chock and Bates and whether they'd consider a coaching change. They seem stuck in a rut and might benefit from another coaching team.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Yes what they did for P/C is unprecedented in the history of coaching IMO. Just watch P/C at the gp events in 2013 leading into 2014 euros/worlds, the improvement in one season is super natural.
Imo that will always be MTL's biggest legacy, I'd love to know how they turned a young talented couple (plenty of those) into skating Gods in 12 mnths, just nuts..

Unprecedented!

 

[Anyasnake]

I don't know about a coaching change for Shibs... not sure. They are doing a good job with Massimo Scali I think. Then I prefer what they do which is seeking help and ideas outside of Canton and outside the skating world than what Marina gave them before honestly. But Massimo brought that touch of youth that maybe Marina was missing. She is known for very elegant programs like she gave Voir and Marlie, but it's nice to see a touch of "cool" with her top team now.

 

[chapis]

[QUOTE="VIETgrlTerifa, post: 5252307, mem953719049296498690. Shibs do continue, I wonder if they'll think about changing training locations just to get something fresh. I know they seek out outside help all of the time and pretty much put themselves in the driver's seat in the past three seasons but it'd be nice if they didn't have to work so hard. They could still be involved with the creative process but it would also be nice to have a coach have a stronger idea for them and what they should be developing as well. It's one thing to get outside contributors for a week or so before the season and have a refresher session in the middle of the season, but it's another to have them with you all day every day. I used to get annoyed when it seemed everybody mentioned Evgeny Platov every time there was a suggestion for a coaching change for anybody, but now I see what people mean looking at his past work before his teams left him.

I admit that I do wonder if they'll be an issue if one of them wants to continue and the other one doesn't and if the one who decides to stay would have issues finding a partner. Right now, I really think they're just thinking about this season and will figure out what they want to do after Worlds. I said I wouldn't be surprised if they continued to 2022, and I still wouldn't be surprised, but another four years is a big commitment and they both are showing clear interests in both skating-related and non-skating related (or slightly skating-related) endeavors. I know I'd be itching to hone new skills in other fields that I was already interested in going if given the opportunities.[/QUOTE]

Well, Alex definitely has his eyes beyond skating https://twitter.com/AlexShibutani/status/953719049296498690
I guess if this would depend only on Maia I guess they will continue, so we only can hope she can convince him continue other 4 years, they have said clearely that they are not interesed on skating with other people.

 

[Anyasnake]

I'm also wondering about Chock and Bates and whether they'd consider a coaching change. They seem stuck in a rut and might benefit from another coaching team.

That on the other hand I wouldn't mind but I don't see it happening at all. They are one of Igor's biggest priority after all.
I don't see them really stuck but it's all about finding what's suits you and being true to yourself in your programs these days, and not going for flamenco, then latin, then waltz, then musical, etc, every year. I'm not saying they should find something specific and stick to it, not at all, but they've never had THAT free dance. THE free dance, that is just so them. A lot of other couples have had that : P/C (Mozart), V/M (Umbrellas), Shibs (Fix You), H/D (Beth Hart), WeaPo (Je suis malade), G/P (Hitchock), B/S (Anna Karenina), etc...
(The examples in brackets are the 1st one each teams did if they were to be others)

 

[slipchuk]

Chock & Bates seem to want to continue ATM but IMHO they have even less incentive to continue than the Shibutanis. They have been dropping both internationally and in the U.S since early 2016 now. They definitely wont medal at the Games unless atleast 3 teams underperform IMO. The one positive sign atleast is they have been the highest of the 3 U.S teams sometimes in the FD this season, but thus far it has only been because of mistakes and missed levels by the other 2 teams, this occured at both the GPF and U.S Nationals, it isnt really so much them.

I do agree if they do continue they could benefit from a coaching change though. They are technically strong enough to compete with the best but they have never had a defined and unique look of their own, and while for awhile the judges didnt seem to care, now that more teams can match them technically is really starting to hurt them. I do think their FD this year is their best ever routine, which is another reason they are doing well in that portion, but they need to continue going along that path and find more of a unique look that makes them stand out.

 

[GreenGan]

Imo that will always be MTL's biggest legacy, I'd love to know how they turned a young talented couple (plenty of those) into skating Gods in 12 mnths, just nuts..

Different life. P/C had to get up the morning at 5 to be able to skate before classes, skate only 2 hours, then they had to go studying arts for Guillaume and management (I think) for Gaby. And they would skate 2 hours again later. (That may not be their exact planning but you get the idea).
There are not many ice rink in France.
There was also a "war" going on between Zazoui and Didier at the time, Zazoui couldn't come to their competition as an official coach because of him.

You also have to take into consideration that P/B, V/M and D/W were either retiring or taking a break, the FD choreography resonnated with them and the work with Catherine Picard (their theater coach) was I think a big changer for them. They are taught to express and not to act. Her ways of teaching was a match. (Someone related the story of P/C first class with her on Golden Skate). And C/L weren't ready for CoC in 2014 which was a good moment for P/C to show that they were on.

Many things were aligned to make it for P/C. They had the goods to begin with. And the atmospher at Montreal, the way Dubreuil, Lauzon, Haguenauer are in harmony with their vision of ice dance creates that atmosphere. (Haguenauer was D/L coach in France) If you add the international context, you understand how they won in 2015. Even though they weren't on V/M-D/W skills at the time.

 

[sap5]

Yes what they did for P/C is unprecedented in the history of coaching IMO. Just watch P/C at the gp events in 2013 leading into 2014 euros/worlds, the improvement in one season is super natural.
Imo that will always be MTL's biggest legacy, I'd love to know how they turned a young talented couple (plenty of those) into skating Gods in 12 mnths, just nuts..

Didn't Marie-France say it was largely packaging? That P/C always had the skills, but they weren't being shown to the best effect. Add in their work with Ms. Picard and the other things GreenGan also mentioned.

 

[sap5]

I know they seek out outside help all of the time and pretty much put themselves in the driver's seat in the past three seasons but it'd be nice if they didn't have to work so hard.

Is this what the Shibs want though? My impression is that they really like Marina's hands-off approach.

 

[Anyasnake]

Different life. P/C had to get up the morning at 5 to be able to skate before classes, skate only 2 hours, then they had to go studying arts for Guillaume and management (I think) for Gaby. And they would skate 2 hours again later. (That may not be their exact planning but you get the idea).
There are not many ice rink in France.
There was also a "war" going on between Zazoui and Didier at the time, Zazoui couldn't come to their competition as an official coach because of him.

You also have to take into consideration that P/B, V/M and D/W were either retiring or taking a break, the FD choreography resonnated with them and the work with Catherine Picard (their theater coach) was I think a big changer for them. They are taught to express and not to act. Her ways of teaching was a match. (Someone related the story of P/C first class with her on Golden Skate). And C/L weren't ready for CoC in 2014 which was a good moment for P/C to show that they were on.

Many things were aligned to make it for P/C. They had the goods to begin with. And the atmospher at Montreal, the way Dubreuil, Lauzon, Haguenauer are in harmony with their vision of ice dance creates that atmosphere. (Haguenauer was D/L coach in France) If you add the international context, you understand how they won in 2015. Even though they weren't on V/M-D/W skills at the time.

That was exactly like that. That was the same way we had to train back in the days (and still now for a lot of teams), you just don't have enough ice time if you don't go very early and at lunch time (eat in 5-10 minutes). Look at their 2013 TEB FD, they look like they were going to die because they did not have the stamina.
But it's like that, things aligned. You give skating a chance and move elsewhere, you have ice time during the day, a very decent amount of sleep and a clear schedule. Plus the talent AND circumstances : At CoC 2014 they had the "luck" that most team are looking for. Anna&Luca bombed big time, Shibs had too many level issues (plus a couple of glitches) and P&C skated very well. Then momentum goes on your side. You add many retired teams (or injured like B/S), the fact that C/L WD for TEB after that...
In Ice Dance you have to have the talent combined with a bit of momentum I think. They won 2 GPs "out of nowhere" that year, and the momentum was way too hard to stop.

I don't know if there are any other teams that managed to climb that fast, except V/M in 2008. And it was a silver because there was an excellent established team at the top (and a couple of glitches in the OD). Shibs won bronze in 2011 too, but had some issues at worlds the following years.
But then there is Evan Bates. Actually he impresses me a lot. World Junior champ in 2008, manages to go to Vancouver, split, found Maddie, went as America #2 in their 2nd season, went to Sochi, World silver medallist then... I don't know but he's going to his 3rd Olympic Games. Okay he is not ranked 1,2 or 3rd right now, but this is talent right there.

 

[VGThuy]

Is this what the Shibs want though? My impression is that they really like Marina's hands-off approach.

I think that’s what they want but I also think a stronger hand would also be beneficial as they’re still students who are learning. That’s why they sought to work with so many people because I think they crave that as well. I think you can still take creative responsibility but also work with someone else who may take a bit more control. I just think a more inspired coach/choreographer wouldn’t have made Alex and Maia feel the need to take THAT much responsibility on their own. I think it’s fine for the past three seasons but I’d like to see someone’s work on them like Lambiel’s exhibition for them last season or Tchernyshev’s exhibition for them three years ago that led to “Fix You”. I hope that makes sense.

 

[firstflight]

But then there is Evan Bates. Actually he impresses me a lot. World Junior champ in 2008, manages to go to Vancouver, split, found Maddie, went as America #2 in their 2nd season, went to Sochi, World silver medallist then... I don't know but he's going to his 3rd Olympic Games. Okay he is not ranked 1,2 or 3rd right now, but this is talent right there.

He post about how fortunate he feels to have the opportunity for three Olympics:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bd1Pos_nVaZ/?hl=en&taken-by=evan_bates

 

[starrynight]

It's also a factor whether 'the fashion' will change in the type of ice dancing favoured by the judges.

We say acrobatic lifts aren't necessary anymore. Who knows if the judges will decide they are again.

 

[caseyedwards]

It's also a factor whether 'the fashion' will change in the type of ice dancing favoured by the judges.

We say acrobatic lifts aren't necessary anymore. Who knows if the judges will decide they are again.

Rules would have to be changed to make really acrobatic only way to get level 4.

 

[starrynight]

There wasn't any rule change which contributed to the step away from acrobatic lifts was there?

 

[caseyedwards]

There wasn't any rule change which contributed to the step away from acrobatic lifts was there?

This is what I am saying! Rules allowed simpler lifts to get level 4 so why were people being dumb and being so acrobatic? So to get back to acrobatic they need rules to force it.

 

[starrynight]

Or just the team that is popular/successful to start doing it and then everyone has to follow.

The reason everyone did the acrobatic lifts was that it became a part of the VM vs DW rivalry and everyone else had to try to match it to look like the best.

I think some teams/ a lot of teams are certainly doing acrobatic lifts now just to try to make themselves stand out even if they know they actually won't get more points for it.

 

[mirage]

I agree it as much Carol Lane as Poirier, or more. Carol Lane also has a TON of clout high up in Skate Canada.

I agree with all you said. I really dont see G&P ever becoming Canadian #1 but we will see.

MarieM I agree with you on Hubbell & Donohue. Although overtaking P&C if they stay wont be easy, but it could happen if P&C's style falls out of favor somewhat. I do expect them to start a reign as the U.S #1 atleast.

Carol Lane is a queen of politicking!