U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

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^Maybe a lot is being based on Vincent's practices (?) I am not even entirely sure how great they were but it was posted on TSL that he was landing quads right and left.

He has no trouble landing quads, he does multiple quads every session. I just find that despite the great work Drew has done with him, there’s still something that I don’t quite connect with.

For me personally, it could be that he’s just not showing the maturity I like to see in a Senior skater. For me, that’s where the future comes in. He’s got the quads, he’s got some moves, but just that maturity that really gives connection to music and an audience, it’s not quite there yet.

I do think that Vincent’s jumps will probably get him to the podium this week though. So while he may deserve an Olympic spot based on placement, I’d rather watch him once he matures.
 
Last time nationals was SAN Jose, Vincent won novice and Nathan won jr. Venue is in their favor but that does not ensure anything of course
 
Not to mention Nathan has never had a UR problem...
I agree that Vincent is part of the future, but I don't see him as part of this Olympic team :slinkaway
 
The thing is, we haven’t seen Max or Vincent since mid-November. A lot can change in that time, and Vincent has reported that he’s skating clean and Max is killing it in practice.

We’ve seen Adam and Jason more recently, but even so, that doesn’t mean we’ll see the same guys this week that we saw at the GPF.

I think the men’s first official practice is this afternoon at 5:00 pm pacific time, so we should start to have a better idea of where they’re all at later today.
 
Not to mention Nathan has never had a UR problem...
I agree that Vincent is part of the future, but I don't see him as part of this Olympic team :slinkaway

Nathan does underrotate occasionally. When he is tired and underrotates he falls because he always lands on his blade. Vincent has this technique to spin the last half turn on ice on toepick and he won't fall. If Jason learns this toepick-landing technique maybe he'll be able to land some quads without falling. If everyone learns to put his blade down with over half a turn at lutz and flip takeoff and land on his toepick, we will see a lot of 4Lz and 4F soon.
 
I personally think Nathan is the only US man who clearly deserves to go.

I think that the rest should be based on how they skate at Nationals. Yes Jason/ Adam made the GPF but neither have improved technically in order to be competitive with the world.

I think if Zhou beats them at Nationals send Zhou. He has more of a future than the other three men who are not going to medal individually anyways. It is worth giving him the experience for the next Olympic cycle.
 
The thing is, we haven’t seen Max or Vincent since mid-November. A lot can change in that time, and Vincent has reported that he’s skating clean and Max is killing it in practice.

You mean YOU haven’t seen them since mid-November.

Vincent is landing multiple quads every session. Max is a little more hit and miss, having some great sessions and some that are not so great.

Vincent frequently gets on, does what he needs to do and then leaves the session early. Max is more likely to stay on for the entire session.

However, it all comes down to a few minutes later in the week and really, anything could happen.
 
The thing is, we haven’t seen Max or Vincent since mid-November. A lot can change in that time, and Vincent has reported that he’s skating clean and Max is killing it in practice.

We’ve seen Adam and Jason more recently, but even so, that doesn’t mean we’ll see the same guys this week that we saw at the GPF.

I think the men’s first official practice is this afternoon at 5:00 pm pacific time, so we should start to have a better idea of where they’re all at later today.

Zhou did not look good in practice yesterday. Even though it was "unofficial" he was still practicing. He was missing quite a few quads.
 
You mean YOU haven’t seen them since mid-November.

Vincent is landing multiple quads every session. Max is a little more hit and miss, having some great sessions and some that are not so great.

Vincent frequently gets on, does what he needs to do and then leaves the session early. Max is more likely to stay on for the entire session.

However, it all comes down to a few minutes later in the week and really, anything could happen.

Well most of us, including me, aren’t in CS, but it sounds like you’re the exception to that - thanks for your insight.

Someone on GS who’s at Nats is reporting that Max won’t be at practice tonight. No details, no idea if it’s true.

ETA @Cleo1782, thanks for letting us know what you saw.
 
Well most of us, including me, aren’t in CS, but it sounds like you’re the exception to that - thanks for your insight.

Someone on GS who’s at Nats is reporting that Max won’t be at practice tonight. No details, no idea if it’s true.

ETA @Cleo1782, thanks for letting us know what you saw.

Your welcome. BTW, I don't take practice that seriously. If someone is missing everything or looks nowhere close to hitting a jump, yes I take note of that, but if they are just 'off' I don't see it as a huge deal. I will say when Max won nationals he was amazing in practice, but last year Zhou was so so and skated great. Mirai is the ultimate practice skater this year. She looks so fit and amazing and tightens up when she competes. Gracie was also phenomenal in practice, but Ashley never is........so it's just hard to tell who is going to show up that night. Bradie looks amazing too-so solid. Grant and Caroline look good as well.
 
Good point - there’s a huge difference between practice and competition. It might be even bigger this year, given how much is on the line. It’s interesting, though, that competitors respond in such opposite ways. Anyway, I’m sure we’ll all look forward to hearing more of your first hand impressions later!
 
I personally think Nathan is the only US man who clearly deserves to go.

I think that the rest should be based on how they skate at Nationals. Yes Jason/ Adam made the GPF but neither have improved technically in order to be competitive with the world.

I think if Zhou beats them at Nationals send Zhou. He has more of a future than the other three men who are not going to medal individually anyways. It is worth giving him the experience for the next Olympic cycle.

Agreed about Nathan. But about Zhou’s “having more of a future” - Yes, there’s certainly promise, but A LOT can happen in an Olympic cycle. I was convinced that Adam was done after 2014. I was pretty sure Max would probably quit after 2014, certainly after 2015 Nationals. Joshua is probably done and I was convinced in 2014 he would be in the mix right now.

Do we know whether Jason plans to continue after this season?
 
I'm not arguing that Vincent doesn't have a future. Sure he does. He's still a kid with a long way to go.

What I'm pushing back against is the idea that he should be chosen for that reason only and not have to earn it.
 
Agreed about Nathan. But about Zhou’s “having more of a future” - Yes, there’s certainly promise, but A LOT can happen in an Olympic cycle. I was convinced that Adam was done after 2014. I was pretty sure Max would probably quit after 2014, certainly after 2015 Nationals. Joshua is probably done and I was convinced in 2014 he would be in the mix right now.

Do we know whether Jason plans to continue after this season?

I think Jason should probably retire after this season because he doesn't have the content to really contend and would be an amazing show skater, but I think he plans to continue. I think it is up in the air really. I think he will continue if he doesn't make the Olympic team. He is still young, but I am not sure he will ever have the jumps to keep up with the quad mania.
From what I heard from some 'insiders', the USFS really likes Zhou and believes in him, so if he skates well I think he might make the team.
Josh is done from all that I know. What a shame..
And Max is well liked by the USFS because of his hard work and general consistency even if he doesn't get the great PCS marks-he is still considered a solid skater that has content and a good mentality.
Again this is just second hand info from some people I know in the sport and in USFS not gospel or anything.
 
I think Jason should probably retire after this season because he doesn't have the content to really contend and would be an amazing show skater, but I think he plans to continue.

I also don’t think Jason will have the technical content needed to contend with the quad era, and I agree that he would make a great show skater, but I personally don’t think anyone should talk about when a skater ‘should’ retire.

Each athlete is on their own journey, with their own goals. For some this includes the Olympics, for some, it’s just making sectionals. The athlete is the one putting in the hard grind and long hours, this decision should be theirs, when the time is right for them.

I know this is the Men’s thread, but I’m certainly glad that Mirai didn’t retire 4 years ago when many people thought that she should.
 
I think Jason should probably retire after this season because he doesn't have the content to really contend and would be an amazing show skater, but I think he plans to continue. I think it is up in the air really. I think he will continue if he doesn't make the Olympic team. He is still young, but I am not sure he will ever have the jumps to keep up with the quad mania.
From what I heard from some 'insiders', the USFS really likes Zhou and believes in him, so if he skates well I think he might make the team.
Josh is done from all that I know. What a shame..
And Max is well liked by the USFS because of his hard work and general consistency even if he doesn't get the great PCS marks-he is still considered a solid skater that has content and a good mentality.
Again this is just second hand info from some people I know in the sport and in USFS not gospel or anything.

I also think that Jason wants to go to school and has taken some classes already. Max just graduated. I will admit that I have been worried about the realistic vocational/educational futures of Ashley, Adam, and Joshua. They haven’t been interested in school and the amount of coaching, choreography, and show opportunities are limited and insanely competitive.

Unfortunately, unless you are a legend/celebrity, it’s really hard for an U.S. athlete to make a decent amount of $$$ in Olympic sports. I call it the “Michael Phelps effect”.
 
I also don’t think Jason will have the technical content needed to contend with the quad era, and I agree that he would make a great show skater, but I personally don’t think anyone should talk about when a skater ‘should’ retire.

Each athlete is on their own journey, with their own goals. For some this includes the Olympics, for some, it’s just making sectionals. The athlete is the one putting in the hard grind and long hours, this decision should be theirs, when the time is right for them.

I know this is the Men’s thread, but I’m certainly glad that Mirai didn’t retire 4 years ago when many people thought that she should.

Just my opinion on a message board. Jason can retire whenever he sees fit. I just don't see him contending for titles anymore.

But agreed. My goal in skating was to make it to Nationals, not place. So I totally understand. I was just saying his results as an Olympic medalist going forward might not satisfy him and he would be excellent in shows.

I think Jason would be successful at anything he tries. Most skaters have the will, determination, and mindset to accomplish their goals.
I didn't win any Olympic medals, but my mindset since I was 4 was to succeed and work as hard as you can. Figure skating taught me that and I don't even work in the figure skating field right now. It instilled those values which I think a lot of former skaters are very successful in their own lives.
 
If I recall, changes have been proposed to the scoring system that would create more of a balance between high BV elements and GOE/PCS?

Depending on what changes are implemented and when, a skater like Jason might become more competitive at the top even without a quad.

Then again, as is the case currently, I guess it depends in part on how judges apply the guidelines.
 
... the amount of coaching, choreography, and show opportunities are limited and insanely competitive.
I agree about show skating but not coaching. Relative nobodies who maybe made it to sectionals in my area start coaching at $60+ per hour and there is no shortage of learn to skate tots to fill their hours. Even if they only fill a 25 hour schedule, that's $70K+ per year.

I know less about choreography but most lower level choreographers also coach.
 
I agree about show skating but not coaching. Relative nobodies who maybe made it to sectionals in my area start coaching at $60+ per hour and there is no shortage of learn to skate tots to fill their hours. Even if they only fill a 25 hour schedule, that's $70K+ per year.

I know less about choreography but most lower level choreographers also coach.

Thanks for the info. But aren’t there a lot of extra insurance/certification costs? Plus, doesn’t the rink usually charge to use their facilities to coach? Also, for example, didn’t Kori Ade say in an interview that the Broadmoor World Arena wouldn’t let her coach there and that was the main reason she ended up having to go to Monument?

And there’s the whole actually having the patience and skills to be a viable coach thing......;)
 
I agree about show skating but not coaching. Relative nobodies who maybe made it to sectionals in my area start coaching at $60+ per hour and there is no shortage of learn to skate tots to fill their hours. Even if they only fill a 25 hour schedule, that's $70K+ per year.

I know less about choreography but most lower level choreographers also coach.

I think coaching isn't as lucrative as you think. I know a few Olympic level coaches that don't make the money you would imagine. A lot of times these coaches coach pro bono for their top athletes if they don't have the money. And these top coaches put in a majority of time to these elite athletes so they can't just make the cash teaching beginners because of the travel for comps and stuff. They also pay the rink a cut for services and for insurance plus taxes for being self employed . It's a lot of long hours and babysitting for athletes even adults.
 
Thanks for the info. But aren’t there a lot of extra insurance/certification costs? Plus, doesn’t the rink usually charge to use their facilities to coach? Also, for example, didn’t Kori Ade say in an interview that the Broadmoor World Arena wouldn’t let her coach there and that was the main reason she ended up having to go to Monument?

And there’s the whole actually having the patience and skills to be a viable coach thing......;)

Yes and yes. There are a lot of costs people don't realize. Insurance, coaching credentials, and the rink always gets part of the cut. Plus the taxes. You aren't making millions at all. And it certainly isn't a 9-5 job. Some coaches charge for 'missed lessons' when they are away at an international comp, but some don't. So they lose a week of lessons.
 
I think coaching isn't as lucrative as you think. I know a few Olympic level coaches that don't make the money you would imagine. A lot of times these coaches coach pro bono for their top athletes if they don't have the money. And these top coaches put in a majority of time to these elite athletes so they can't just make the cash teaching beginners because of the travel for comps and stuff. They also pay the rink a cut for services and for insurance plus taxes for being self employed . It's a lot of long hours and babysitting for athletes even adults.
There are a lot of costs people don't realize. Insurance, coaching credentials, and the rink always gets part of the cut.
I think you're conflating a lot of different types of coaches and also rink arrangements.

Yes, there is liability insurance, but it's not very expensive (certainly not anywhere as expensive as professional malpractice insurance). And certification costs are more of a one-time deal and again, not a lot of money.

Rink arrangements differ, but most coaches that I know pass any of these costs through to their students.

And a coach who is traveling to international competitions is likely of a higher caliber and making a higher rate. So if they are not charging their students for lost lesson time, they are making up for it with their billing rates.

It's been decades since I skated but when I last had a coach (or rather, coaches) they were all making close to $100 an hour, and they weren't Olympians or national-level coaches.

And finally, for @ilovepaydays, work is out there. Maybe Kori Ade wasn't able to teach at Broadmoor, but she certainly found herself another rink, and I'm sure she's making good coin.

Bottom line - for a profession that requires no secondary education and maybe only a few relatively easy PSA certifications*, coaches in the U.S. make pretty darn good money.

*The top-level PSA ratings are NOT easy, but the first levels are not difficult, and in many places even the entry level rankings are not required.

Plus the taxes.
Erm, don't we all pay taxes? :confused:

You aren't making millions at all.
I never claimed coaches became millionaires, only they they could readily make $70K+ a year, right out of the gate, which certainly beats being a $10/hour greeter at Wal-Mart.

And it certainly isn't a 9-5 job.
Most jobs aren't.

Ok, this tangent was in response to @ilovepaydays concerns for what Adam, Ashley and Joshua might do for a living after they move on from skating, and my point was that if they decide to coach, they will probably do just fine. Back to U.S. men.....
 
the rink always gets part of the cut
Not everywhere. Coaches in my area are independent contractors with skating clubs to teach on club ice, which the club buys from the rink. They do not pay the club or the rink. There are public sessions for figure skating at a few rinks, but they generally do not allow coaching.

25 hours a week is 5 hours of coaching, 5 days a week. That's a lot of ice and a lot of students, even if you get ones who will take lessons every day for 30min or more.
 
Not everywhere. Coaches in my area are independent contractors with skating clubs to teach on club ice, which the club buys from the rink. They do not pay the club or the rink. There are public sessions for figure skating at a few rinks, but they generally do not allow coaching.

25 hours a week is 5 hours of coaching, 5 days a week. That's a lot of ice and a lot of students, even if you get ones who will take lessons every day for 30min or more.

That's great, but I have taught in Cali and Florida and they took a big cut off my earnings. It may not be an absolute standard, but I taught at Ice Castle in Lake arrowhead and in Ellenton, FL. Both of these are elite training centers so they may take less of a cut or none in lesser know locations.
 
I think if Zhou beats them at Nationals send Zhou. He has more of a future than the other three men who are not going to medal individually anyways.

I agree with this... and I also believe that Vincent is very much "the present," as he is "the future." He has just as much chance of placing as well, internationally, as any of the other top American men, aside from Nathan.
 
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I'm not arguing that Vincent doesn't have a future. Sure he does. He's still a kid with a long way to go.

What I'm pushing back against is the idea that he should be chosen for that reason only and not have to earn it.
If Vincent places top 3 at Nationals, I think he has done enough to earn it. He was 2nd last year, won Jr worlds.

I wouldn't see the point of sending Adam or Brown when neither have them have shown that they can compete for an individual Olympic medal and both are stagnating technically. Sure they "might" finish higher but they might not. Why not give Zhou some no pressure Olympic experience.

Was he perfect on the Gp no but he is also trying very hard technical content.
 
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