I, Tonya

[Vagabond]

CLEARLY, CHINA IS NOT IN JAPAN, which it says in the first sentence, among other errors, that make the article rather unbelievable.

NHK was in Chiba that year. I say we cut the writer some slack and flame the copy editor.

 

[Vagabond]

Surya Bonaly's SP at 1993 NHK. She fell (on her butt) on the triple lutz, which was to be the first jump in her combination. Interestingly, this is not the program she used at the Olympics. That program was immeasurably better.

Surya Bonaly's FS at 1993 NHK. For the record, she did not fall either on her butt or otherwise. Other than one tight landing, it was a very good outing by Bonaly standards.

Chen Lu's SP at 1993 NHK. She fell (on her butt) on the triple lutz, which was to be the first jump in her combination. Great edges and stroking. The rest ... not so much.

So, yeah.... The eventual gold and bronze medalists fell on their combinations in the SP, just as Harding apparently did. If she fed herself the narrative that she didn't actually fall in the SP until she had internalized it as the truth, I can see why she might believe that she should have won. If she had skated a clean SP, she would have been in the top three, and if she had also skated to her level from 1991 in the FS, she would have finished first in that segment, thereby winning the competition.

Of course, what actually happened did not go according to that scenario.

Facts are horrid things.

 

[VGThuy]

Here's Tonya's support system reacting to Tonya's 7th place showing at NHK (ues I know she placed 4th overall):

https://youtu.be/J-eMME0fe8Q?t=193

and

here's the TV Movie's take on Jeff's and Tonya's reaction to NHK with some commentary by generic "reporter" character who is clearly based on Christine Brennan with bonus scene of Nancy's infamous "I want to die" KnC line from 1993 Worlds:

https://youtu.be/ZCvO1ooJslM?t=2476

 

[bardtoob]

ETA: @bardtoob Who finished fifth in the SP? Koiwai or Preston?

The Magic 8-Ball says "unclear" ... Like everything about this competition. What I put matches Wikipedia.

Surya Bonaly's FS at 1993 NHK. For the record, she did not fall either on her butt or otherwise. Other than one tight landing, it was a very good outing by Bonaly standards.

I actually think this is one of Surya's best skates

 

[bardtoob]

So, yeah.... The eventual gold and bronze medalists fell on their combinations in the SP, just as Harding apparently did. If she fed herself the narrative that she didn't actually fall in the SP until she had internalized it as the truth, I can see why she might believe that she should have won. If she had skated a clean SP, she would have been in the top three, and if she had skated to her level from 1991 in the FS, she would have finished first in that segment, thereby winning the competition.

The Gold medalist, Surya, and Silver medalist, Lulu, both fell on their combos in SP and were third and fourth in the SP, respectively. There is no indication that the Bronze medalist, Yuka Sato, who was first after the SP, fell in the SP.

What if Tonya did an intermediate error rather than one of the two extremes, "clean" or "falling". Maybe Tonya did a 2Lz-2T or two-footed a jump but completed the element?

I have a hard time believing Tonya would lie about a fall at NHK because she must have assumed their would be video and better records. It is not like Tonya scrubbed the records from the internet. I am still in shock there is not more video because NHK is both the sponsor and a broadcasting company.

 

[VGThuy]

Crazy to think that this whole thing may not have happened if Tonya only did Skate America that Fall rather than go to NHK and let that placement feed into everything else that built up that she and Jeff were feeling.

 

[bardtoob]

Crazy to think that this whole thing may not have happened if Tonya only did Skate America that Fall rather than go to NHK and let that placement feed into everything else that built up that she and Jeff were feeling.

Tonya had to do NHK because she did not do Regionals. This arrangement was made because supposedly Tonya got a death threat.

Speculation) Tonya's with associates did the death threat themselves so Tonya could skip Regionals.

Speculative Motivation 1) Tonya thought Regionals was beneath her.

Speculative Motivation 2) Tonya feared that American judges would low ball her so she would not qualify for Nationals and effectively end her career.

 

[Vagabond]

What if Tonya did an intermediate error rather than being "clean" or "falling". Maybe Tonya did a 2Lz-2T or two-footed a jump but completed the element?

And maybe she had some other errors or glaring errors that cost her in addition to the fall. She did, after all, finish three places lower than Chen in the SP.

Still, let's suppose for a moment that she had finished third in the SP and that all other marks and ordinals for all other skaters in both programs were unaffected. In that case, we would have had:

1 Sato 1 3 2.5
2 Bonaly 4 1 3.0
3 Chen 5 2 4.5
4 Harding 3 4 5.5
etc.

In other words, Harding still would have finished fourth overall.

 

[casken]

here's the TV Movie's take on Jeff's and Tonya's reaction to NHK with some commentary by generic "reporter" character who is clearly based on Christine Brennan

https://youtu.be/ZCvO1ooJslM?t=2476

I was just watching that scene before and was thinking the same thing. She has Christine's mannerisms and style of speaking down pretty well. It noticeable that the character cites Tonya's dress coming undone as one of the shady things Tonya has done over the years, but we know from video that it was genuinely not her fault. So that's Morry Stillwell, the Canadian judge in the interview posted earlier in this thread, and most likely Christine Brennan, who all pushed the "Tonya unhooked her dress", myth. From Tonya's perspective, I could see how she felt there were forces working against her.

 

[bardtoob]

And maybe she had some other errors or glaring errors that cost her in addition to the fall. She did, after all, finish three places lower than Chen in the SP.

Maybe the error was her whole presentation? ... It is "unfortunate" in comparison to Chen Lu's

Still, let's suppose for a moment that she had finished third in the SP and that all other marks and ordinals for all other skaters in both programs were unaffected. In that case, we would have had:

1 Sato 1 3 2.5
2 Bonaly 4 1 3.0
3 Chen 5 2 4.5
4 Harding 3 4 5.5
etc.

In other words, Harding still would have finished fourth overall.

Nice work!

Do you think Tonya would have worked that out? I doubt it. I am certain she and her associates where a basket of irrational fears.

 

[VGThuy]

I was just watching that scene before and was thinking the same thing. She has Christine's mannerisms and style of speaking down pretty well. It noticeable that the character cites Tonya's dress coming undone as one of the shady things Tonya has done over the years, but we know from video that it was genuinely not her fault. So that's Morry Stillwell, the Canadian judge in the interview posted earlier in this thread, and most likely Christine Brennan, who all pushed the "Tonya unhooked her dress", myth. From Tonya's perspective, I could see how she felt there were forces working against her.

OT: That "retired skater" character was clearly Carol Heiss, right?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Tonya had to do NHK because she did not do Regionals. This arrangement was made because supposedly Tonya got a death threat.

Speculation) Tonya's with associates did the death threat themselves so Tonya could skip Regionals.

Speculative Motivation 1) Tonya thought Regionals was beneath her.

Speculative Motivation 2) Tonya feared that American judges would low ball her so she would not qualify for Nationals and effectively end her career.

It seemed a little unfair that Tonya, who placed 4th at the 1993 US Nationals, was assigned a regional qualifying competition. Whereas Nicole Bobek (who finished 5th) and Michelle Kwan (who finished 6th), did not have to do regional competitions during the 1993-94 season.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

We'll never know how many kids raised in trailers and beaten with hairbrushes had the talent to land the 3a but were never even taken to the rink once. The fact that Tonya found one of the golden tickets but got escorted away by wonka's Umpa-loompas singing a little ditty about kids who hit other kids or whatever is the whole comi-tragedy from start to finish. All of Varooka's advantages couldn't help her and Charlie still won even though he cheated, etc but it's like every four years we gotten see another show about poor poor Violet and how turning purple ruined her whole life and all wonka's fault, and her father's fault and the fault of everyone else who helped guide her to that moment when she chose to pop the experimental gum in her mouth. It's the 30th anniversary of Violet turning violet! Let's do another documentary about it.

Sadly, physical abuse of that nature isn't as uncommon as we think.

From memory, a very talented junior, Michelle Cho, was allegedly hit by her mother.
To the point, where other parents at her rink considered reporting it to child protection.

A friend of mine who skated at the time, said after one session, when Tiffany Chin missed the triple flip over and over in practice, that Tiffany's mother smacked her across the face in front of the other skaters.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

OT: That "retired skater" character was clearly Carol Heiss, right?

I believe Heiss has said when she competed, it was for 'God and Country'. The unnamed character they used to represent her, even had Carol's trademark gravel voice.

 

[WanderlustTO]

I saw this today and really loved it - as a movie, I thought it was really well done...probably one of the best movies i've seen this year - well acted and (depending on your previous knowledge of Tonya) I think it did a good job in portraying Tonya in a more realistic light than the last 25 years of ham fisted portrayals.

For long time figure skating fans, there is nothing new about the narrative - you'll already be familiar with all of it (not just the Tonya/Nancy narrative, but all the dark underbelly involved in general).

Additionally, if you recall the "era" well, there were gaps in the competition narrative re Tonya.

It was surreal being reminded of how the 24 hr news cycle was existent then but in some ways different. The news magazine shows, etc.

 

[cmk]

It seemed a little unfair that Tonya, who placed 4th at the 1993 US Nationals, was assigned a regional qualifying competition. Whereas Nicole Bobek (who finished 5th) and Michelle Kwan (who finished 6th), did not have to do regional competitions during the 1993-94 season.

The usfsa was punishing Tonya for being herself according to an author ( I think Ben Wright) of my skating books. I'm surprised they didn't make Nicole go to regionals though but Nicole did go to the test practice at the Olympic venue (she didn't compete at pirutten if I recall correctly). We know from the boards that Morry S pretty much hated Tonya way before the whack. Michelle probably had an international assignment that directly conflicted with regionals ( they could of done the same for Tonya but didn't). I do think Tonya was very hurt not to get invited to the pro-am ( I think she had finished 2nd to Kerrigan the year before in 93, but she wasn't attempting 3lutz until 93 nationals. She also very much needed the $20,000 appearance fee plus the prize money the pro-am was paying out as well.
The equipment failures ( dress and loose blade were not her fault, no one knows for sure who called in the death threat (the movie implies Jeff thought it was Nancy, Morry is too sure of the death threat not being real so he might have been behind it himself ( I do believe he hated Tonya that much), or Jeff could of did it. No one will ever know for sure.
Tonya has apparently had a lifelong problem with ovarian cysts, so much so that she thought she wouldn't ever be able to have kids. She then got pregnant at 40 with her son, promptly married the dad, they are still together and seem happy with each other. As for not bringing the right size lace, I'm sure the media hounding her day and night probably affected her preparation that is understandable she might forget something that important. Diane should of realized that might happen and brought extra on her own. Jeff was also the one that influenced her to go back to Diane (who did kind of baby her) because Jeff liked Diane and hated Dody. She is skating again, and back with Dody.
She was not fairly marked in the short because she merely took an extra step between the 3lutz and 2 toe, while Yuka singled her, and Josee fell. She was placed 10th in the short, and should of been no longer than 7th, and with the higher basemark because she did land the 3lutz she should of been over Witt (3toe/2oe), and Tanja S (3loop/2toe) which move her up to 5th. In the free , she landed 3 lutz, 3 flip (the only lady in the top 10 to do so), 3salchow, 3loop was landed on 1 foot, but she put other foot down quickly so judges errantly marked it as 2 footed. She should of moved ahead of Surya because she had better basic skating skills than Surya, although I preferred both Tonya and Surya to Nancy. Her 94 performance should of been no longer than 4th or 5th, and if she hadn't had the distractions and skated like Nationals, she should of and would of been on the podium.
+

 

[NinjaTurtles]

Saw the movie last night and don’t think it made Tonya too sympathetic; although, the film is clearly from her perspective and version of events. Her frequent reiteration of things not being her fault, very obviously poked at fun at Tonya’s poor accountability and overall lack of trustworthiness. I think that piece of her personality puts a fair amount of bad taste in the audience’s mouth.

 

[gkelly]

Tonya had to do NHK because she did not do Regionals. This arrangement was made because supposedly Tonya got a death threat.

Speculation) Tonya's with associates did the death threat themselves so Tonya could skip Regionals.

Speculative Motivation 1) Tonya thought Regionals was beneath her.

Speculative Motivation 2) Tonya feared that American judges would low ball her so she would not qualify for Nationals and effectively end her career.

All possible, but if she thought that there was any chance of not getting past NWP regionals, she was even more lacking in perspective than we thought. Possibly she would have been vulnerable at Pacific Coast sectionals if she had a bad day, but if she were skating reasonably well there's no chance she wouldn't have finished top 4.

I can see how anything but walking away with first would have been an embarrassment to a former national champion/world medalist.

According to the program I saved from 1994 Nationals, the qualifiers through Pacific Coasts were
1st Jennifer Verili, St. Moritz Skating Club
2nd Keri-Anne Thomas, All Year FSC
3rd Melissa Ann Nelson, Peninsula FSC
4th Lisa Talbot, Peninsula FSC

I.e., no senior ladies from NWP made it to Nationals that year.

Had Harding already been assigned to NHK before the regionals death threats? What NHK really got her out of timewise was sectionals, not regionals. But after the death threat, USFSA might have thought it would not be safe to have her compete at sectionals either.

Michelle probably had an international assignment that directly conflicted with regionals ( they could of done the same for Tonya but didn't).

Kwan competed at Skate America (7th) and Junior Worlds (1st) that fall.

I do think Tonya was very hurt not to get invited to the pro-am

Yes, probably.

The equipment failures ( dress and loose blade were not her fault,

Well, they were her responsibility in the sense that she didn't maintain and check her equipment sufficiently, the dresses may not have been soundly constructed. I think it's all part of limited financial resources and a chaotic lifestyle, which were circumstances she was born into. But I don't believe she engineered the equipment failures intentionally.

She was not fairly marked in the short because she merely took an extra step between the 3lutz and 2 toe,

It's possible some judges considered the quick exit from the solo double flip as a step out.

while Yuka singled her, and Josee fell. She was placed 10th in the short, and should of been no longer than 7th,

And let's not forget Anna Rechnio (clean skate with 3Lo+2T combo) in 9th place.

Jumps aside, they each had a variety of strengths and weaknesses in their other elements, basic skating, and presentation. I'm sure ordinals were mixed among them. (I used to have all the scores from that event written out by hand and ordinals calculated, but I think I threw away that notebook last time I did a major cleaning).

Anyway, I was in Hamar for the short program, I was a big fan of Harding's skating when she was on, and that performance was disappointing. I thought 10th place was a bit harsh, but not robbery.

 

[Vagabond]

Do you think Tonya would have worked that out? I doubt it. I am certain she and her associates where a basket of irrational fears.

Perhaps she felt she should have been placed higher in the FS as well.

Sato had yet to do a triple lutz in competition but had superior skating skills. Harding may have noticed the first point but overlooked the second. :shrug:

 

[meggonzo]

And maybe she had some other errors or glaring errors that cost her in addition to the fall. She did, after all, finish three places lower than Chen in the SP.

Still, let's suppose for a moment that she had finished third in the SP and that all other marks and ordinals for all other skaters in both programs were unaffected. In that case, we would have had:

1 Sato 1 3 2.5
2 Bonaly 4 1 3.0
3 Chen 5 2 4.5
4 Harding 3 4 5.5
etc.

In other words, Harding still would have finished fourth overall.

I also wonder if Tonya thought she would have placed higher in the long if she skated in the last group. 7th in the short put her in the first group for the long.

 

[Erin]

I also wonder if Tonya thought she would have placed higher in the long if she skated in the last group. 7th in the short put her in the first group for the long.

That's my assumption. Because (in her mind) she didn't get marked fairly in the short program, she was in the first group in the long program and was marked unfairly there and she thought she should have at least been in 3rd place (if not higher, who knows) in the free. Which might have been possible if she had skated in a later group.

Also, in response to @Vagabond's question of who came in 5th in the SP, I'm pretty sure there was a tie for 5th. Ties were rare under the ordinal system but still possible and I have a vague recollection of seeing it happen this time.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Perhaps she felt she should have been placed higher in the FS as well.

Sato had yet to do a triple lutz in competition but had superior skating skills. Harding may have noticed the first point but overlooked the second. :shrug:

Actually, Yuka landed a triple lutz in the free skate at the 1993 World Championships.

The landing was a bit wild, but she still completed it on one foot.

 

[cmk]

Actually, Yuka landed a triple lutz in the free skate at the 1993 World Championships.

The landing was a bit wild, but she still completed it on one foot.

The ordinal system produced a lot of strange results- I recall one euros where Urmanov did not skate well and was not in the top 3 after his skate, but later skaters flipped ordinals and he ended up winning.

 

[gkelly]

The ordinal system produced a lot of strange results- I recall one euros where Urmanov did not skate well and was not in the top 3 after his skate, but later skaters flipped ordinals and he ended up winning.

You're probably thinking of 1997 Europeans, which was a real messy event with both ordinals and factored placements. But Urmanov was not out of the top 3 after his freeskate.

Detailed explanation of what happened: http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/obo/score-tech.shtml

 

[Coco]

Reading the last few pages of this thread make me sooooooooooo glad we have IJS, faults and all.

 

[skatingguy]

Reading the last few pages of this thread make me sooooooooooo glad we have IJS, faults and all.

In the very least it gives us a clear record of what each skater did and how they were scored so that when we argue about it 15 years from now we have a place to start with.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

In the very least it gives us a clear record of what each skater did and how they were scored so that when we argue about it 15 years from now we have a place to start with.

Exactly.

Scores under the 6.0 gave fans of the sport very little to go with, considering that the judges notes for each skater were not posted for public scrutiny. Sometimes, especially when there was a controversial decision, it was hard to understand why certain skaters were given the marks they received.

IJS, and the pdf annotations posted online with each major competition, make it easier to understand each result.

 

[gkelly]

So if we disagree, at least we know what we're disagreeing with.

 

[Clay]

It's possible some judges considered the quick exit from the solo double flip as a step out.



And let's not forget Anna Rechnio (clean skate with 3Lo+2T combo) in 9th place.

Jumps aside, they each had a variety of strengths and weaknesses in their other elements, basic skating, and presentation. I'm sure ordinals were mixed among them. (I used to have all the scores from that event written out by hand and ordinals calculated, but I think I threw away that notebook last time I did a major cleaning).

Anyway, I was in Hamar for the short program, I was a big fan of Harding's skating when she was on, and that performance was disappointing. I thought 10th place was a bit harsh, but not robbery.

That must have been an exciting night to see live.
Here are the scores, including ordinals:
https://web.archive.org/web/2009010...d/17_lillehammer/17_figure/17_figure_w_ex.htm

(The scores are getting more difficult to find, even on the cached site, so you may want to save them)

As you know, Harding skated early and I think was the first skater of the night to go for a triple lutz.
At that event, the top 10-12 skaters were seeded later from the previous Worlds. I don't think that happened in 1992 or again until much later. Skating early certainly didn't help Harding's case, much like the rumored early draw at NHK 1993. Also, the recently interviewed Canadian judge seemed to favorably prefer this short program compared to the long program.

Although Anna Rechnio had skated well at Europeans, I imagine it was difficult to judge that performance. She skated right in the middle of the event and there were not many 3 loop combos that night. She had great speed and attack (How was it live?) and at least adequate presentation. 4 of the 5 judges had this above Harding, pre-OBO.

 

[gkelly]

Although Anna Rechnio had skated well at Europeans, I imagine it was difficult to judge that performance. She skated right in the middle of the event and there were not many 3 loop combos that night. She had great speed and attack (How was it live?) and at least adequate presentation. 4 of the 5 judges had this above Harding, pre-OBO.

I was a new fan at the time; 94 Olympics was the first international competition I attended. So I didn't know who a lot of the skaters even were. I don't remember what impression Rechnio made on me at the time -- not much, beyond the fact that she skated a clean program. Later I got a video of the British Eurosport coverage, and the commentators remarked on her speed, which does seem apparent on video. Watching again today, I like her use of the music even though I hate that music, and her posture seems to be a weakness.

One skater who did make a positive impression on me live was the last skater, Lenka Kulovana, who was very elegant (except for minor glitches on the 3T+2T combo and final spin). I see her ordinals ranged from 6 to 15.