The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[Cayuse]

Who can clarify the Shib's timing error? Are the steps on the wrong beat of the music or do they hold (or not hold) certain steps for the wrong number of beats of music?

 

[marbri]

But how to you want to read them if it's not by performance quality ? And most importantly elements ?
This wasn't my way, it's the judges way. SD is most importantly based on elements and execution before anything. The subjectivity may lie in the preference of a program for sure, but one cannot argue on execution.

I know how to read the protocols and I know how this works. We don't interpret them the same way and there is probably no real point to continue a debate because the reality is neither you nor I were on that panel to say precisely why it went a certain way. You think it all comes down to the rhumba because there exists the 0.50 points that you feel explains the 0.54 lead whereas I think it came down to subjectivity (which btw is not me implying something nefarious, this IS a subjective sport at the end of the day).

 

[MsZem]

For the record, with all due respect to P/C, I thought V/M definitely won yesterday's SD. On any given day, V/M perform their SD with better overall finesse and edge quality. Well, what can we do? Didier is doing his job.

Anyone who makes the argument that P/C's success is due solely or primarily to Gailhaguet's politikking cannot be taken seriously.

First of all, P/C are exceptional skaters. Cizeron is a generational talent, and Papadakis has become quite special herself. I realize many fans are sold on the idea that V/M are untouchable, but V/M - while excellent themselves - are not untouchable. And you can say many things about their programs, but "finesse" is really not the first word that comes to mind.

Second, P/C's success has come to some extent despite their federation and not because of it. They had absolutely no support when they trained in France, as their placements and assignments in the 2013-14 season demonstrate. They basically had to leave the country to get away from their federation screwing them over. Once they did, their talent and programs were impossible to ignore.

Finally, the notion that Gailhaguet is some master politician is laughable. Skating is full of politics, and those who do it well aren't obvious like Gailhaguet. They don't get voted down in the first round of the elections to replace Speedy, either. Whatever influence you think he has far outstrips his actual power.

 

[kittysk8ts]

I know how to read the protocols and I know how this works. We don't interpret them the same way and there is probably no real point to continue a debate because the reality is neither you nor I were on that panel to say precisely why it went a certain way. You think it all comes down to the rhumba because there exists the 0.50 points that you feel explains the 0.54 lead whereas I think it came down to subjectivity (which btw is not me implying something nefarious, this IS a subjective sport at the end of the day).

@marbri, as you and I discussed over in the V/M thread, isn't it the level 3 in the no touch step sequence that really hurt them? of course the lesser GOE on the rhumba hurt as well.

 

[skategal]

As much as I want this to be true, I have a feeling the FD won't play out the same way.

It may not for this competition but the Shibs have pretty much perfected their SD to compete with V/M and P/C.

They still have 2 months to polish the FD and ice is slippery.

At the end of the day, the OGM may still come down to P/C vs V/M but the Shibs are much more competitive now than people gave them credit for at the beginning of the season. My hats off to them.

 

[AquaLady]

Anyone who makes the argument that P/C's success is due solely or primarily to Gailhaguet's politikking cannot be taken seriously.

First of all, P/C are exceptional skaters. Cizeron is a generational talent, and Papadakis has become quite special herself. I realize many fans are sold on the idea that V/M are untouchable, but V/M - while excellent themselves - are not untouchable. And you can say many things about their programs, but "finesse" is really not the first word that comes to mind.

Second, P/C's success has come to some extent despite their federation and not because of it. They had absolutely no support when they trained in France, as their placements and assignments in the 2013-14 season demonstrate. They basically had to leave the country to get away from their federation screwing them over. Once they did, their talent and programs were impossible to ignore.

Finally, the notion that Gailhaguet is some master politician is laughable. Skating is full of politics, and those who do it well aren't obvious like Gailhaguet. They don't get voted down in the first round of the elections to replace Speedy, either. Whatever influence you think he has far outstrips his actual power.

You need to chill. I didn't say P/C's success is solely on Didier. I insinuated that Didier is doing his job. Don't put words into my mouth. I think Guillaume is a star. He's one of the best ice dancers right now. I'm not trying to make P/C look like they suck, cause they don't. It's just that, in my opinion, V/M performed better and are better in the short dance. Period.

BTW, the fact that you're downplaying Didier's politicking is ridiculous. Forgot what happened in 2002?

 

[MsZem]

You need to chill. I didn't say P/C's success is solely on Didier. I insinuated that Didier is doing his job. Don't put words into my mouth. I think Guillaume is a star. He's one of the best ice dancers right now. I'm not trying to make P/C look like they suck, cause they don't. It's just that, in my opinion, V/M performed better and are better in the short dance. Period.

You didn't insinuate anything. You stated very clearly that P/C winning the SD yesterday was Didier doing his job. That's not putting words in your mouth; it's attributing your own comments to you.

BTW, the fact that you're downplaying Didier's politicking is ridiculous. Forgot what happened in 2002?

He tried to politik and did a lousy job of it. My point exactly.

 

[blancanieves]

Unless Guillaume changed his name, Gaby and him did the job. Like Ben Agosto said, it was "breathtakingly clean".

The cleanest won. And if Shibs had been cleaner they would have been dangerously close to V/M too. If H/D were cleaner, they would have been closer to the Shibs (that wasn't their best performance yesterday).

H/D were cleaner, they didn't get credit for it. Ben Agosto's call on H/D: "very clean, didn't make any mistakes; edges were very clean; excellent twizzles; twizzles were beautiful."

The fact that they're virtually tied with C/B in TSS, whom Agosto described as "sloppy with the free leg in the step sequences, especially the Pst; twizzle sequence slow on the rotation" is testament to how the judges were not consistent in evaluating these teams.

 

[Debbie S]

H/D were cleaner, they didn't get credit for it. Ben Agosto's call on H/D: "very clean, didn't make any mistakes; edges were very clean; excellent twizzles; twizzles were beautiful."

The fact that they're virtually tied with C/B in TSS, whom Agosto described as "sloppy with the free leg in the step sequences, especially the Pst; twizzle sequence slow on the rotation" is testament to how the judges were not consistent in evaluating these teams.

C/B's base value was 1 point higher due to the level 3 H/D got on their twizzles. H/D did earn higher GOE and ultimately, received higher TES. Not sure what you are complaining about.

 

[Anyasnake]

H/D were cleaner, they didn't get credit for it. Ben Agosto's call on H/D: "very clean, didn't make any mistakes; edges were very clean; excellent twizzles; twizzles were beautiful."

The fact that they're virtually tied with C/B in TSS, whom Agosto described as "sloppy with the free leg in the step sequences, especially the Pst; twizzle sequence slow on the rotation" is testament to how the judges were not consistent in evaluating these teams.

Overall, when comparing them to SCI and NHK I found them a bit slower. But what caused them trouble were the levels. Especially that level 3 twizzle. When they did it, I thought Maddie almost bobbled. It wasn't their cleanest twizzles (they have gotten a perfect score on this before, so they're capable of it). Ben also said that performance-wise it could have been better and I agree. They left points on the table.
Good to notice that H/D have the 2nd best pattern after P/C. On camera it looked big and deep.
Not gonna lie, they were much sharper/cleaner than C/B. For me the difference could be seen, and if you take the execution only, it should already be good enough for a point gap in GOEs.
Also in PCS. C/B strong point is the speed. This season, it just doesn't show (and that's odd). The pattern was not the best and they went into the twizzles with so much hesitation, it threw me off.
C/B have lost their mojo a bit, at least it feels like it.
I'm waiting for tomorrow for the FD, hoping everyone is clean to really show the difference.

 

[Spun Silver]

As much as I want this to be true, I have a feeling the FD won't play out the same way.

Buck up, VGT! The Shibs’ FD is a sleeper, and a grower. After you see it, you don’t know what hit you. With Fix You, you knew. But it is what Evolution was aiming at, IMO, and it is mesmerizing in a semi-abstract, semi-emotional way. Plus, even though they can’t exactly swagger in it, they are skating at a new level, in my non-expert opinion.

 

[AquaLady]

You didn't insinuate anything. You stated very clearly that P/C winning the SD yesterday was Didier doing his job. That's not putting words in your mouth; it's attributing your own comments to you.


He tried to politik and did a lousy job of it. My point exactly.

LOL. I said what was on my mind. You can say anything you want, but the fact that you went defensive mode and made a 4-paragraph essay undermining Didier's deviousness speaks volumes about you. HAVE A GOOD LIFE.

 

[barbarafan]

I agree very much. I also think that this was an off-SD for them today... better having that now than at Olys or Nationals.

Did not find that Mai's performance ability was there....Latin by numbers

 

[barbarafan]

Nothing. She's french.

as well the french judge gave V/M pcs of 4 x 9.50 and a 9.75/ cdn judge gave P/C 3 x 9.50, a 9.75 and a 10.00.

 

[Amantide]

as well the french judge gave V/M pcs of 4 x 9.50 and a 9.75/ cdn judge gave P/C 3 x 9.50, a 9.75 and a 10.00.

Nothing strange with either, but +1 from the French was over the top. lol

 

[blancanieves]

But what caused them trouble were the levels.

My point is that H/D deserved higher levels than they got.

 

[barbarafan]

ASAP is going to have to wait until I finish grad school two weeks from today, but I love the suggestion.

Then I hope you r reading this on your break..study on....good luck

 

[barbarafan]

Yes, but this is Russia we're talking about. More important than substance is form or exterior. Add to that the element of nepotism and the political support internally will always be strong. I pity teams coming up because they'll need to be leaps and bounds better than them, to even have an opportunity to represent Russia. I am just telling it as it is.

Watching the juniors coming up and a few newer seniors you might not need to pity them next year.

 

[topaz]

About S/B, they are super nice and sweet people but I can´t stand her skating, their costumes, their programs, their music . But russian junior teams are looking good, and I just saw that Anastasia/Kirill (Russia) are in first place after the SD at JGPF, C/P in 2nd place. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AC_f0MdMrz0

See I think Stepanova has improved, not as much as Vika Sinitsina but improved. /I think S/B are more evenly matched this season that previously. They both are very good performers and have very good musicality. I love Vika's free dance dress. You hate this dress - https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GiGLI-QB...gL/s1600/Stepanova_Bukin_FD_Fotor_Collage.jpg.

I like their packaging(minus Ivan Bukin's free dance blouse)

For the record, with all due respect to P/C, I thought V/M definitely won yesterday's SD. On any given day, V/M perform their SD with better overall finesse and edge quality. Well, what can we do? Didier is doing his job.

I thought V/M were sharp yesterday but for me P/C were exceptionally fast and flowy in the SD. The entrance into the Rhumba pattern from P/C was breathtaking. The power, speed, edges and the flow super impressive. I don't know how Gabby was able to hold the key points/entrances and egdes in the first choctaw position. That edges was so deep.

I have never been a fan of 80% of V/M programs, but their talent and skill level superb, maybe top 5 dance team ever. Tessa is the Barbara Fusar-Poli of her generation talent wise - musically versatile, movement, line, extension, performance. She's one of the best ever. However, their SD is less latin that P/C. The choreography of their SD could be used for another SD with different music if you ask me. Also, Tessa's edges weren't as clean as Gabby. Scott I have issues with some of the things he's said in the past, but he's an excellent skater. He's not better than Guilliaume in my opinion who is the best male ice dance skating today.

 

[caseyedwards]

While I almost hate Bobrova’s SD this season (I don’t like S/B’s either) , I think that Bobrova and Soloviev are miles better than S/B. Katia’s posture and Zhulin’s chores are their main problems, yes, but other than that they are pretty good. They have better skating skills, speed, edges. S/B are one of the slowest teams in current top-10, IMO. Their are still juniorish and sloppy sometimes.
And gosh Stepanova just can’t skate She has improved but her knees are still very stiff and she can’t gather speed in few turns (look at Tessa, Gabi, Ilinykh, for example).
I honestly don’t see a reason, why they should be ahead of BS or even SinKats

Russian federation would have gladly put I/K ahead of B/S each time but I/K were prone to stupid mistakes and twizzles disasters..

But the question is why was b/s always put in the position to take advantage of i/k mistakes? Even when I/K were clean they never beat b/s in either a sd or fd. B/s are (almost) totally undefeated in sd and fd in Russian nationals. Clean b/s always beat clean I/k. B/s also made tons of mistakes at Russian nationals. It’s not like they were Davis and White consistent in Russia. Flawed b/s always beat flawed I/k too in Russian nationals.

 

[Anyasnake]

But the question is why was b/s always put in the position to take advantage of b/s mistakes? Even when I/K were clean they never beat b/s in either a sd or fd. B/s are totally undefeated in sd and fd in Russian nationals. Clean b/s always beat clean b/s. B/s also made tons of mistakes at Russian nationals. It’s not like they were Davis and White consistent in Russia. Flawed b/s always beat flawed I/k too in Russian nationals.

S/K beat B/S in the SD at the 2015-2016 Nats I think.

 

[caseyedwards]

S/K beat B/S in the SD at the 2015-2016 Nats I think.

You are so right. Their only loss to any other team at Russian nationals -post 2010. The only time a mistake ever really hurt them at Russian nationals. And their SD score last season was 81! I think it’s all about preserving the work they did for them among the international judges and they don’t want s/k or s/b to go around saying their number one.

 

[topaz]

del

 

[allezfred]

I said what was on my mind.

Totally devoid of facts mindless drivel?

 

[MarieM]

So as I already said, that bronze medal is up for grabs, and the shibs IMO just lost their chance.

 

[caseyedwards]

Top 5 for Olympics
1. France
2. Canada
3. USA
4. USA
5. USA

 

[levineismine]

So as I already said, that bronze medal is up for grabs, and the shibs IMO just lost their chance.

But once again H/D juuuust missed the opportunity to step up
I think the FD tes score was fair given the lift for H/D, but it's the 4pts gap in the SD that I did not fully get.
Come on judges kick those PCS up a point.

 

[MarieM]

H&D were hosed in PCS.

 

[Spun Silver]

So as I already said, that bronze medal is up for grabs, and the shibs IMO just lost their chance.

Oh please. They just had a very uncharacteristic event. They never miss their twizzles. Whatever is off will be fixed by Nats. Who can predict the Olympics? But they certainly didn't just lose their chance.

 

[Miloune]

About VM : the intensity in the Tango part was amaaaazing. They really worked on their circular, it matched the music better. Maybe they should add a bit more in the diagonal idk. And the death scene at the end was better than before I think, more intense. I think once they figure out what to do about the come what may section they could reach the 120 too, I see no reason why they shouldn't tbh. Their feet are so quick...