The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[Ka3sha]

Yet they are not even politicked at all. And that's bullshit crazy because Bobrova is slow and boring.

SB always had and still has a great lobby (Tarasova, Bestinianova, Bukin senior), they have always scored pretty good
Probably too good for a team with a girl with poor basics and lack of skating skills, it's ice dance after all

 

[caseyedwards]

SB always had and still has a great lobby (Tarasova, Bestinianova, Bukin senior), they have always scored pretty good
Probably too good for a team with a girl with poor basics and lack of skating skills, it's ice dance after all

Those names mean nothing outside of Russia in dance anymore though. They are not Spiliband! Zueva! Dubreuil!

 

[Bigbird]

Bobrova isn't slow per say, but she lacks refinement and grace. She is a fighter though so she's always gunning for her levels. Stepanova has been working on her skating skills and while they are still wanting her team compensates in every other way possible. Her styling and presentation are impeccable. The entire costume budget for the Russian team must have been spent on S/B. With S/K the focus yes is on Nikita, it has to be, as he could implode at any moment. I've found them rather uneven this year, but aren't they always? So, in reality, we will not know what Russia can do until perhaps Europeans.

 

[topaz]

The Shibs did not miss key points. Their level 2 was based on timing not missing the key points. If they did they would have received two “N”s not two “T”s. For all of that they still received the same GOE as H/D and higher GOE than V/M and because it was pretty good considering despite the timing issues. Their pattern is comparable to H/D and I feel like select people are copying and pasting Shib criticisms from last season and every season before. Like saying they were slower than H/D when clearly that’s not the case if we’re watching the same video of this particular SD performance.

And the Shibs lost a lot of GOE for their twizzles compared to what they usually get so it was reflected. It’s just that the Shibs planned a very difficult set with many more rotations than the competition so they were still able to meet level 4 despite Alex having one less rotation than usual. It was still more rotations on the second set than H/D planned. Also, Madison hit a slight snag on the middle of her second set not on her entrance.

Looking at cleanliness of steps, turns, it’s not picking the deepest ones at a moment but also looking at the entrances and exits and the entire thing as a whole. The Shibs steps may not go for the long lobes of H/D but they were deemed correct and deep and clean. It’s a different approach but not a less correct one.

And are you referring to me with the comment "Their pattern is comparable to H/D and I feel like select people are copying and pasting Shib criticisms from last season and every season before. Like saying they were slower than H/D when clearly that’s not the case if we’re watching the same video of this particular SD performance."

I watched the Olympic channel broadcast originally, then I watched the youtube versions of Eurosport and another European broadcast. You are welcome to view all those videos/broadcasts. Yes, to me the shibs were overall slower than H/D in this SD. The looked slower on my original viewing of the SD on the olympic channel and in my opinion it was confirmed with other youtube versions I watched.

Also, I was not referring the level 2 dance rhumba cd pattern, I was referring to the 2nd pattern steps that they received the highest score of any team on. In your opinion obviously, H/D did not have that over the Shibs. That's your opinion, I thought their dance patten steps sequence hit all key points to achieve the level 4 requirement.

We'll have to disagree on this one.

 

[Ka3sha]

Those names mean nothing outside of Russia in dance anymore though. They are not Spiliband! Zueva! Dubreuil!

I'm speaking about Russian politics and that with their lobby they could have easily become Russian #1 if they had better programs and she had decent SS.
They were given a lot of chances in last few years, but all their outing at Worlds were kind of sloppy: she fell on the steps in the SD in 2015, they had wobbles in both 2016 and 2017 as well.

 

[Bigbird]

I'm speaking about Russian politics and that with their lobby they could have easily become Russian #1 if they had better programs and she had decent SS.
They were given a lot of chances in last few years, but all their outing at Worlds were kind of sloppy: she fell on the steps in the SD in 2015, they had wobbles in both 2016 and 2017 as well.

Yes, but this is Russia we're talking about. More important than substance is form or exterior. Add to that the element of nepotism and the political support internally will always be strong. I pity teams coming up because they'll need to be leaps and bounds better than them, to even have an opportunity to represent Russia. I am just telling it as it is.

 

[MarieM]

I'm speaking about Russian politics and that with their lobby they could have easily become Russian #1 if they had better programs and she had decent SS.
They were given a lot of chances in last few years, but all their outing at Worlds were kind of sloppy: she fell on the steps in the SD in 2015, they had wobbles in both 2016 and 2017 as well.

Nah. All the lobbying stayed inside of Russia.
Zhulin and his hitman made sure of that. Hitman is one of the best political animal I've ever witnessed. He's clever and will do whatever is needed.
StepBukin's coach don't rely on politiks, hence they've never really got a good chance to win and IMO this season, they should be way ahead of B&S.

 

[caseyedwards]

I'm speaking about Russian politics and that with their lobby they could have easily become Russian #1 if they had better programs and she had decent SS.
They were given a lot of chances in last few years, but all their outing at Worlds were kind of sloppy: she fell on the steps in the SD in 2015, they had wobbles in both 2016 and 2017 as well.

I just remember in 2015 nationals when there was no b/s many people were desperate for them to come back because of their age and experience. So while you are most definitely right that If she had much much better skating skills and better programs they could have been to number one people were all over the press during Russian Nationals desperate for b/s to return and not to have so much youth and inexperience.

Nah. All the lobbying stayed inside of Russia.
Zhulin and his hitman made sure of that. Hitman is one of the best political animal I've ever witnessed. He's clever and will do whatever is needed.
StepBukin's coach don't rely on politiks, hence they've never really got a good chance to win and IMO this season, they should be way ahead of B&S.

Totally!!

 

[Bigbird]

Nah. All the lobbying stayed inside of Russia.
Zhulin and his hitman made sure of that. Hitman is one of the best political animal I've ever witnessed. He's clever and will do whatever is needed.
StepBukin's coach don't rely on politiks, hence they've never really got a good chance to win and IMO this season, they should be way ahead of B&S.

Or more realistically be that much closer to them, each has noticeable failings. But I'm not really interested in their current top 3 seniors, per say. None of these has the total package. I'm more interested in their new teams and their juniors to be frank.

 

[Ka3sha]

Nah. All the lobbying stayed inside of Russia.

Sure, but their lobby cannot help them even in Russia..
Maybe the problem is in them and their skating and not in their lobby?


I haven’t seen them live this season but I’ll in two weeks at Nationals, maybe I will change my opinion after that..

 

[Bigbird]

Sure, but their lobby cannot help them even in Russia..
Maybe the problem is in them and their skating and not in their lobby?

True, but they seem to be in denial about that.

 

[caseyedwards]

Sure, but their lobby cannot help them even in Russia..
Maybe the problem is in them and their skating and not in their lobby?


I haven’t seen them live this season but I’ll in two weeks at Nationals, maybe I will change my opinion after that..

They came close to beating b/s last season and could do it this season but it’s an extreme battle of lobbies! Like I said the crying about b/s being absent in 2015 was very very real. And they are totally undefeated In Russian nationals since 2011. I/k at their most hyped couldn’t beat them at Russian nationals. Even when Clean that one time in 2013. Below the big big names b/s has all the support. Like bronze medalists during soviet times or 4th place finishers during soviet times. Plus zhulin of course.

 

[Bigbird]

They came close to beating b/s last season and could do it this season but it’s an extreme battle of lobbies! Like I said the crying about b/s being absent in 2015 was very very real. And they are totally undefeated In Russian nationals since 2011. I/k at their most hyped couldn’t beat them at Russian nationals. Even when Clean that one time in 2013. Below the big big names b/s has all the support. Like bronze medalists during soviet times or 4th place finishers during soviet times. Plus zhulin of course.

I/K was rarely ever clean at Nationals from juniors to seniors. Eight out of ten times Katsalapov messed up twizzles or footwork or both. Right before the OG, they messed up their knee lift and the skate was just rough. Based on interviews with Morozov and others Katsalapov, who liked to dictate the pace of their practice would back off the hard work after big tournaments. What could possibly explain his reduced technical skills between Sochi and Saitama? He should already be a world champion, no other world championship is easier than that after the OG. Hence my utter frustration with Russia's internal politics. They tend to allow personalities to dictate the progress of their sport rather than the actual ice dancing.

 

[Ka3sha]

They came close to beating b/s last season and could do it this season but it’s an extreme battle of lobbies!

While I almost hate Bobrova’s SD this season (I don’t like S/B’s either) , I think that Bobrova and Soloviev are miles better than S/B. Katia’s posture and Zhulin’s chores are their main problems, yes, but other than that they are pretty good. They have better skating skills, speed, edges. S/B are one of the slowest teams in current top-10, IMO. Their are still juniorish and sloppy sometimes.
And gosh Stepanova just can’t skate She has improved but her knees are still very stiff and she can’t gather speed in few turns (look at Tessa, Gabi, Ilinykh, for example).
I honestly don’t see a reason, why they should be ahead of BS or even SinKats

Russian federation would have gladly put I/K ahead of B/S each time but I/K were prone to stupid mistakes and twizzles disasters..

 

[MarieM]

Ka3sha I disagree about almost everything. You haven't paid attention to Stepanova&Bukin's skills this season.
And coming from me, it's a very huge compliment.
S&B are almost as powerfull as Hubbell. Without the same technique, that is something worth noting.
They are IMO miles better and faster than Chock, the italians, Giles/poirier. They lack the raw power teams like Weaver/Poje have, but IMO this season at last, they've fixed some of Alexandra's posture problems.

Bobrova is still skating waist bent down. Poor technique from the waist up. And they've lost their easyness of edges this season.
Nikita&Vika have the best SS of all, but they never put it all together at the same time. Nikita can't control what he does. And IMO he never will. They have shade of genius, but they do not work enough and HE is the problem.

 

[Ka3sha]

Ka3sha I disagree about almost everything. You haven't paid attention to Stepanova&Bukin's skills this season.
And coming from me, it's a very huge compliment.
S&B are almost as powerfull as Hubbell. Without the same technique, that is something worth noting.
They are IMO miles better and faster than Chock, the italians, Giles/poirier. They lack the raw power teams like Weaver/Poje have, but IMO this season at last, they've fixed some of Alexandra's posture problems.

Bobrova is still skating waist bent down. Poor technique from the waist up. And they've lost their easyness of edges this season.
Nikita&Vika have the best SS of all, but they never put it all together at the same time. Nikita can't control what he does. And IMO he never will. They have shade of genius, but they do not work enough and HE is the problem.

It’s funny, I agree with you on Bobrova and SinKats but obviously completely disagree with your thoughts on S/B.

I did pay attention to their skills (especially hers) but still don’t think that they are powerful or on the same level as H/D or Chock/Bates. As I said, I haven’t seen them live this season, probably I’ll change my mind after Nationals Or later at Worlds.
At the same time, I agree that they are better than Piper/Paul and their bronze at CoR was well deserved.

 

[VGThuy]

I do think generally-speaking the Russian teams tend to be blazing fast compared to even the fastest non-Russian team. That's just the way they're taught. Whether or not that speed comes from the best basics and technique depends on the team and coaches.

 

[chapis]

About S/B, they are super nice and sweet people but I can´t stand her skating, their costumes, their programs, their music . But russian junior teams are looking good, and I just saw that Anastasia/Kirill (Russia) are in first place after the SD at JGPF, C/P in 2nd place. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AC_f0MdMrz0

 

[Lara111]

About S/B, they are super nice and sweet people but I can´t stand her skating, their costumes, their programs, their music . But russian junior teams are looking good, and I just saw that Anastasia/Kirill (Russia) are in first place after the SD at JGPF, C/P in 2nd place. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AC_f0MdMrz0

Somebody understand why C/P twizzles were level 2?

 

[chapis]

Somebody understand why C/P twizzles were level 2?

Anthony did not completed the last set, maybe that was the reason. By the way, they need train their twizzles with someone else, their twizzles are looking like those of C/B

eta. I just remembered that Scott made to similar mistake at NHK and their twizzles only dropped 1 level, so no idea, maybe a wrong edge entrance

 

[AquaLady]

For the record, with all due respect to P/C, I thought V/M definitely won yesterday's SD. On any given day, V/M perform their SD with better overall finesse and edge quality. Well, what can we do? Didier is doing his job.

Also, with all due respect to the Shibs, I thought H/D really showed up, were flawless, deserved a higher score, and skated like they were the best American team.

I don't understand how Nastya and Kirill are number one and above Christina and Anthony? Like, I would understand the twizzle argument but other than that, there's no way S/A were better than C/P. Unlike C/P, S/A did not execute all their elements effortlessly. I even thought Sofia and Igor skated cleaner and brought more.

 

[Lara111]

For the record, with all due respect to P/C, I thought V/M definitely won yesterday's SD. On any given day, V/M perform their SD with better overall finesse and edge quality. Well, what can we do? Didier is doing his job.

Also, with all due respect to the Shibs, I thought H/D really showed up, were flawless, deserved a higher score, and skated like they were the best American team.

I don't understand how Nastya and Kirill are number one and above Christina and Anthony? Like, I would understand the twizzle argument but other than that, there's no way S/A were better than C/P. Unlike C/P, S/A did not execute all their elements effortlessly. I even thought Sofia and Igor skated cleaner and brought more.

There was also timing issue on pattern as per TP. It is hard to see when watching online.

 

[Anyasnake]

For the record, with all due respect to P/C, I thought V/M definitely won yesterday's SD. On any given day, V/M perform their SD with better overall finesse and edge quality. Well, what can we do? Didier is doing his job.

Unless Guillaume changed his name, Gaby and him did the job. Like Ben Agosto said, it was "breathtakingly clean". Having both team back to back showed that. P/C scored where they lost last year and V/M weren't the cleanest this time.
This kind of statement is really pointless to anyone who want to understand Ice Dance. The cleanest won. And if Shibs had been cleaner they would have been dangerously close to V/M too. If H/D were cleaner, they would have been closer to the Shibs (that wasn't their best performance yesterday).

 

[marbri]

I have to say there is one thing that always irks me when discussing V/M vs P/C and that is the notion that one wasn't clean while the other was as a way to explain the results. Both teams got L3 on their step. How does that make one "breathtakingly clean" and the other "not the cleanest"?

The only explanation imo that is valid here is that the majority of the panel went with P/C and that is where the subjective part of this sport comes into play.

 

[Anyasnake]

I have to say there is one thing that always irks me when discussing V/M vs P/C and that is the notion that one wasn't clean while the other was as a way to explain the results. Both teams got L3 on their step. How does that make one "breathtakingly clean" and the other "not the cleanest"?

You don't automatically drop a level when you go unclean, and then there are some things we don't see that the Tech panel does (camera work included). P/C could have had one edge from one of them that wasn't enough for the TS for example. V/M beginning of their No-touch could have been enough for the Tech Panel to put a 3 too.
In GP France, P/C got a perfect +3 GOE on the PSt, yet level 3. Same thing with V/M yesterday on the No-touch. Details, yet you have to differenciate. I agree it can be harder for s the Ice Dance fans : we are used now to seeing all of that over and over, yet little things that seem to matter so much make a team drop 1.5 point so easily.
But then I'm not reasy to go through the whole ISU book
But when a team go clean and not the other this is enough to give the points to them I think.

 

[marbri]

And we disagree on how to read those two SDs. As I said, subjective.

 

[Anyasnake]

And we disagree on how to read those two SDs. As I said, subjective.

But how to you want to read them if it's not by performance quality ? And most importantly elements ?
This wasn't my way, it's the judges way. SD is most importantly based on elements and execution before anything. The subjectivity may lie in the preference of a program for sure, but one cannot argue on execution.

 

[skategal]

The tech panel and judges saw something off with V/M's Rhumba pattern. Although technically, "clean" it was originally deemed level 3 and then bumped up to level 4. The judges gave them +2 GOE rather than +3 GOE.

That was really the difference between V/M and P/C.

What I found interesting is that if P/C, V/M, and S/S all had skated the SD as well as they could, they would all probably be within 1 point of each other.

That Olympic Gold is far from determined yet.

 

[VGThuy]

The tech panel and judges saw something off with V/M's Rhumba pattern. Although technically, "clean" it was originally deemed level 3 and then bumped up to level 4. The judges gave them +2 GOE rather than +3 GOE.

That was really the difference between V/M and P/C.

What I found interesting is that if P/C, V/M, and S/S all had skated the SD as well as they could, they would all probably be within 1 point of each other.

That Olympic Gold is far from determined yet.

As much as I want this to be true, I have a feeling the FD won't play out the same way.

 

[Anyasnake]

The tech panel and judges saw something off with V/M's Rhumba pattern. Although technically, "clean" it was originally deemed level 3 and then bumped up to level 4. The judges gave them +2 GOE rather than +3 GOE.

It's "hidden" by the camera work, but try to focus on Tessa on the chochtaw here : https://youtu.be/adwEGD279mI?t=103
Scott is hiding her but she has done a better positioning of her upper body and free leg extention on her other SDs. Since it's right in front of the judges, they saw it and didn't go with the +3. That's also why there was a level3 at the beginning. That one was hard to spot.
Scott on the other way had a terrific one. So smooth.