The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[Anyasnake]

Looking at the World Standings is interesting. Particularly the top ten. Do we know how the Olympic draw will be done yet?

I don't think it has been updated since Skate America. Shibs should be in first I think ? (or 2nd, but definitely 1st or 2nd).

 

[Amantide]

I can see how S/K looked strong at SA in the twizzles and spins, however the program is overly melodramatic and not tastefully done IMO. The costumes are not good either, with the rags. I just can't watch Rachmaninoff programs. Unless P/C decide to do one. (and even then I hope not)

I've seen it once, only, but my impression is that their interpretion was overly melo. Yes, Rach it is a dramatic and intense music but keep it down a bit, especially with the facial expressions, might help.

 

[teacakes]

I don't think it has been updated since Skate America. Shibs should be in first I think ? (or 2nd, but definitely 1st or 2nd).

Hmm, interesting because they've added everyone's points from SA but haven't updated the ranks or the totals? At the bottom it says

Standings as of: 11/27/2017 3:51:12 PM

 

[hockeyplayer2]

I don't think it has been updated since Skate America. Shibs should be in first I think ? (or 2nd, but definitely 1st or 2nd).

Believe it's been updated, but the Shib's didn't do any B's which hurts them in the point standings. Monday was the 27th...

 

[Anyasnake]

Believe it's been updated, but the Shib's didn't do any B's which hurts them in the point standings. Monday was the 27th...

I think with GPF and Euros it's safe to say that P/C will stay 1st until Olympics. B/S will drop after GPF but might get it back after Euros.

 

[millyskate]

After having watched the French GP and caught up with Skate America...
I was mighty impressed with the Shibs SD. A deservedly high score, I think they have the best program of the top teams.
I really can't get into their FD though, I find it falls flat in comparison with many of the other top teams.

I'm finding the placements of the North American pairs such as C&B, H&D, W&P etc above top European teams increasingly hard to justify. At the French GP I saw nothing that W&P or C&B were doing better than Stepanova and Bukin or Guignard and Fabbri. In fact, in many cases I felt they were performing the elements less well. Granted W&P were injured, but I feel the era of North American dominance in Ice Dance is coming to an end. The placements we're seeing still feel like a legacy from the past few years, rather than a reflection of what's happening on the ice (nothing new there).

 

[Anyasnake]

I'm finding the placements of the North American pairs such as C&B, H&D, W&P etc above top European teams increasingly hard to justify. At the French GP I saw nothing that W&P or C&B were doing better than Stepanova and Bukin or Guignard and Fabbri. In fact, in many cases I felt they were performing the elements less well. Granted W&P were injured, but I feel the era of North American dominance in Ice Dance is coming to an end. The placements we're seeing still feel like a legacy from the past few years, rather than a reflection of what's happening on the ice (nothing new there).

Totally agree with this. This is not an issue of who is better "usually". At this competition, Guignard/Fabbri and Stepanova/Bukin were better. I would have had oversall S/B 2nd and G/F in 3rd (but maybe 2nd in the FD - it was mind-blowing).
Both of these teams did the twizzles better (actually bth S/B and G/F are in the top 5/6 of the best twizzles in the world), step sequences flawless and deeper (especially G/F), you can argue about the lifts too.
Transistions were great in G/F FD. Both teams have enormous speed too. Overall G/F grossly underscored on this FD and I would have C/B lower on than S/B on the FD too, but they were only 1 pt apart (the rise of Russian #2 is starting).

 

[muffinplus]

After having watched the French GP and caught up with Skate America...
I was mighty impressed with the Shibs SD. A deservedly high score, I think they have the best program of the top teams.
I really can't get into their FD though, I find it falls flat in comparison with many of the other top teams.

It's very dull and generic... That music surely doesn't help!

 

[sap5]

They were making "blod predictions". Ice Dance is nothing like singles : you can't miss a competition and hope everything is going to turn out your way.

Totally agree with this. This is not an issue of who is better "usually". At this competition, Guignard/Fabbri and Stepanova/Bukin were better.

So do we think ice dance scores should be based on the performance on the ice at each particular event (like singles skating), or that factors from previous events should be taken into account? And I'm not trying to pick on you Anyasnake -- just trying to understand the discussion in general, as it seems fans themselves go one way and then the other.

Also, should fans take a stand one way or another and let that be known, and would that have any effect on the system?

 

[Anyasnake]

So do we think ice dance scores should be based on the performance on the ice at each particular event (like singles skating), or that factors from previous events should be taken into account?

Ice dance should be about the performance at one particular event. I see it that way.
My first post meant that not anybody see it that way, obviously, and is still very very true. But again, I'm no judge.

EDIT : take the Italian case. I feel like when I watch CL and G/F that G/F on the tech outskate C/L sometimes (step sequences, lifts, etc). Why aren't they getting a better tech score at least ? Do you have to "wait for your turn" ? You kind of have to, because unfortunately it works that way. But it shouldn't.

 

[mollymgr]

So do we think ice dance scores should be based on the performance on the ice at each particular event (like singles skating), or that factors from previous events should be taken into account?

It should be judged on every performance but in reality factors from previous events play a role. That's the perfect example of problems with a subjective sport like skating. That's why going to the moon and back is actually much easier than judging something like this.

 

[sap5]

Ice dance should be about the performance at one particular event. I see it that way.
My first post meant that not anybody see it that way, obviously, and is still very very true. But again, I'm no judge.

True, none of us are judges. But ultimately, aren't we supporting the system? It's not always easy to tell whether scores are really reflecting what's happened on that day, but can something be done to make it more transparent? It doesn't seem like there is any incentive within the ISU itself to make that happen. Should others, push for that? Or maybe no one really cares?

 

[levineismine]

It should be based of course on performance on the ice at that event.
But it seems like, to a larger extent than in single skating, PCS take way longer to increase for a team that deserves them, i.e. for teams to be 'recognized' in their improvements.
There are exceptions (P/C post 2014), but for example I think the Shibs were better than the PCS they were receiving for a couple of seasons, and same with H/D last year and the year before.

 

[levineismine]

By the way, if you are not following Skating Scores on twitter, here's a snapshot of the highest scoring twizzles in the GP series
https://twitter.com/SkatingScores/status/935215504884686850

 

[DreamsofBliss]

True, none of us are judges. But ultimately, aren't we supporting the system? It's not always easy to tell whether scores are really reflecting what's happened on that day, but can something be done to make it more transparent? It doesn't seem like there is any incentive within the ISU itself to make that happen. Should others, push for that? Or maybe no one really cares?

To be fair, it happens in all the disciplines. Top skaters are supported maybe more than the programs they put out on the day. I would love for there to be some post press conference with the tech panel. However, I feel like in any sport with elements of human judging you will have disputes. Take baseball, umpires, and the strike zone for example.

 

[Anyasnake]

True, none of us are judges. But ultimately, aren't we supporting the system? It's not always easy to tell whether scores are really reflecting what's happened on that day, but can something be done to make it more transparent? It doesn't seem like there is any incentive within the ISU itself to make that happen. Should others, push for that? Or maybe no one really cares?

Uncounsciously, you have your ideas about each teams I guess (which is not always a good thing). I'll take both P/C and V/M who managed to reach the top without "waiting" with obvious very good skating skills and great performances. Especially P/C because they had a 13th place finish at worlds and 15th at Euros previously. Both these teams actually had (in 2014-2015 and 2007-2008 respectively) an incredible vehicle : Mozart and Umbrellas of Cherbourg. I'd say that both these FD are iconic.
That's why I always think that if Step/Bukin had one, they could be in the top 5 already (even if a lot of you disagree ).
What could we do to change that then ? Also, I think the flag under your name (without any politicking or anything) plays a part.

 

[firstflight]

Ice dance should be about the performance at one particular event. I see it that way.
My first post meant that not anybody see it that way, obviously, and is still very very true. But again, I'm no judge.

EDIT : take the Italian case. I feel like when I watch CL and G/F that G/F on the tech outskate C/L sometimes (step sequences, lifts, etc). Why aren't they getting a better tech score at least ? Do you have to "wait for your turn" ? You kind of have to, because unfortunately it works that way. But it shouldn't.

As I've mentioned before, judges have both the GOE's and PCS to rank teams. G/F's GOE's were clearly showing the judges wanted them placed behind the four teams ahead of them in the free skate. They only received one mark of +3, and had five 0's. As you all were saying, that did not reflect what happened that day relative to the GOE's other teams were getting.
I would bet that G/F's GOE scores will jump up as soon as C/L retire.

 

[teacakes]

I think with GPF and Euros it's safe to say that P/C will stay 1st until Olympics. B/S will drop after GPF but might get it back after Euros.

Do you know how they add up the points by any chance? I added up P/C's and it came to the total on the ranking, but B/S's points, who are #2, were higher.

 

[Anyasnake]

Do you know how they add up the points by any chance? I added up P/C's and it came to the total on the ranking, but B/S's points, who are #2, were higher.

Not at all, sorry

 

[mollymgr]

Right now there are system checks in place so that the score is not too high or two low due to a couple judges. The computer throws those outliers out. The tech panel has never been anonymous. The tech score is where there is a huge chance of making the difference. The tech panel will make it or break it for you, given the PCS is very close. PCS still takes a while to grow. If the judges are handing out 7's and 8's, it will take several competitions before you start seeing 9's and 10's. When it is extremely close, the subjectivity really raises its ugly head because it comes down to preference. Mind you, all of these decisions are happening very quickly. If we gave more time to the judges, it would probably be even more problematic than it is now.

 

[mollymgr]

Do you know how they add up the points by any chance? I added up P/C's and it came to the total on the ranking, but B/S's points, who are #2, were higher.

What points are you referring to?

 

[Anyasnake]

What points are you referring to?

The World Rankings points.

 

[mollymgr]

The World Rankings points.

http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2017/gpsdance.pdf

These ones?

 

[levineismine]

The other big problem is that GOEs are used almost like PCS. A lower ranked team doing a great element will never receive +2/3s.

And the PCS convergence in the different categories that several people already talked about (including Jackie Wong in a recent analysis), where judges do not differentiate. You can be a non-top team executing a clean program with less difficulty but with brilliant choreography and performance quality, but this will not be acknowledged. Your PCS in those categories will probably follow the skating skills mark.

 

[Anyasnake]

http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2017/gpsdance.pdf

These ones?

No this one : http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsdance.htm
It will be used to split Teams at the Olympics fr the SD.

 

[mollymgr]

No this one : http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsdance.htm
It will be used to split Teams at the Olympics fr the SD.

OK. Thanks. Here is how they come up with the points.
http://www.isu.org/communications/1625-1629-world-standing-sandp-id/file

 

[levineismine]

It's fun to look back a the beginning of the quad how things were looking in the GP standings:
http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2014/gpsdance.htm
Chock/Bates, the Shibs, and Papadakis/Cizeron were the 3 teams who qualified this year too.
Weaver/Poje were seen as the frontrunners and now didn't qualify for 2 seasons in a row.
C/B were way ahead of the Shibs.
The other qualifiers were Gilles/Poirier and Ilinykh/Zhiganshin
C/L were in a post-world slump and delayed with preparation
B/S were not competing (injured I think)
Hubbell/Donohue were only alternates
V/M were taking time off.

All in all, it has been quite a fun quadrennial.

 

[Anyasnake]

@levineismine How about 2015 ?
http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2015/gpsdance.pdf
The current World champions were missing due to a concussion.
C/L redeem themselves this GP season.
WeaPo managed to win everything again, many thought that they were finally going to be World champions.
Shibs won NHK and made a statement after losing their Challenger Series.
B/S returned and H/D was a revelation.

If you continue : Shibs finally won US Nats. P/C returned and were crowned Euros Champs again. 4CC was a shifting point : Shibs won, WeaPo "only" 3rd. And a few hours after, V/M announced their Comeback. Worlds : P/C won again, Shibs silver - 1st world medal in 5 years ! - and C/B World medallist twice in a row.

It was a bit of an unpredictable quad... for the better.

 

[VGThuy]

Looking back, this will probably be my favorite quad in ice dance.

 

[Miloune]

@levineismine How about 2015 ?
http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2015/gpsdance.pdf
The current World champions were missing due to a concussion.
C/L redeem themselves this GP season.
WeaPo managed to win everything again, many thought that they were finally going to be World champions.
Shibs won NHK and made a statement after losing their Challenger Series.
B/S returned and H/D was a revelation.

If you continue : Shibs finally won US Nats. P/C returned and were crowned Euros Champs again. 4CC was a shifting point : Shibs won, WeaPo "only" 3rd. And a few hours after, V/M announced their Comeback. Worlds : P/C won again, Shibs silver - 1st world medal in 5 years ! - and C/B World medallist twice in a row.

It was a bit of an unpredictable quad... for the better.

Beside this quad having seen the rising of P/C, it has been ruthless to W/P... Twice they were set to win worlds, twice they failed.