Shooting in Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas

[flyingsit]

The Walmart with the shooting last week is about 10 miles from my house. The news coverage has indicated that while other patrons in the store drew their guns in response, that actually DELAYED the police response and follow-up because they had to treat every person with a gun as a potential ally/partner of the shooter and each one was considered a threat until investigated.

 

[skatesindreams]

Until we are impacted directly, will we care enough to do anything to address the issues involved?
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/06/opini...-damn-about-mass-shootings-robbins/index.html

 

[BlueRidge]

This might be of interest to some of you - but noted Evangelical Christian pastor/author Skye Jethani posted this observation about what pastors in rural areas have been telling him about what's going on in their communities. I think there are many sobering points here that are worth thinking about.

This is harrowing.

I have to ask though, if all those guns are already out there, how do we get rid of them? Do we expect people to simply give them up?

I would like to have fewer guns but I seldom hear people advocate more than passing laws to get rid of them. The laws in and of themselves won't erase the existence of the guns. In some way, the government has to go get those guns. What would that look like?

 

[Tinami Amori]

This might be of interest to some of you - but noted Evangelical Christian pastor/author Skye Jethani posted this observation about what pastors in rural areas have been telling him about what's going on in their communities. I think there are many sobering points here that are worth thinking about.

Skye Jethani… born in India, majored in history and theology of Islam, later studied all major religions, often praised by HuffPost, and now a Christian Pastor….. I don’t know if I trust him not to have a “lefty agenda”…. .. could be a “double agent”, who knows….

Two things I noted in his "ideas" in the FB post:
- When people use guns to commit suicide, they are usually more successful, because for example, a noose can break, and a jump off a bridge may not be fatal….

Well.. how about addressing a cause and desire for suicide, and not the “methods”?

- When a man is drunk and attacks his wife/family member, he is more dangerous with a gun, then with knife or baseball bat. Well….. a knife and a baseball bat do kill also….

Well.... how about addressing “violence” and not the “tool”?

.. by his logic why not forbid automobiles or alcohol? People drink and drive….and that can kill.

 

[oleada]

Except we do have laws against drinking and driving, with strict penalties. The drunk driving rate has been cut in half since 1980 when MADD began their campaign. It has been very successful.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Except we do have laws against drinking and driving, with strict penalties. The drunk driving rate has been cut in half since 1980 when MADD began their campaign. It has been very successful.

We have laws against "shooting" at a family member too... ... I have no problem with a movement Mothers against shooting family members.

 

[skatingfan5]

Such a horrific tragedy is made even more awful to me (if that were even possible) on learning that half of the murdered victims were children, including an 18 month old infant.

Every time there is another mass shooting I feel such despair and a deep sense of helplessness and hopelessness. I will be writing once again to my U.S. representative, but he has a 93% NRA rating, so it really is just about pointless.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Yeah, my father was in the military. Listening to the wives talk, there's a LOT of alcoholism and sexual harassment in the ranks. It's like a fraternity. With guns. And their job is to face traumatic events. It's not entirely surprising that a former service member would snap. However, this particular guy seemed problematic even before he joined, judging by some of the stories we're hearing from people who knew him. Maybe the military needs to make its psych evals a bit more rigorous.

He was denied a gun permit in Texas, according to the Governor. That law did a lot of good!
And I just read that he plead to fracturing his son's skull.

“He assaulted his stepson severely enough that he fractured his skull, and he also assaulted his wife,” retired colonel Don Christensen, formerly the chief prosecutor for the Air Force, told the Times. “He pled to intentionally doing it.”
As punishment, Kelley was confined in military prison 12 months, received a reduction in military rank and was discharged for “bad conduct” -- a step above a dishonorable discharge.

Who is the moron who decided fracturing a child's skull should not receive a dishonorable discharge? In what world is fracturing a child's skull and beating your wife considered honorable? I guess that would be this world.

 

[snoopy]

Wow.

This might be of interest to some of you - but noted Evangelical Christian pastor/author Skye Jethani posted this observation about what pastors in rural areas have been telling him about what's going on in their communities. I think there are many sobering points here that are worth thinking about.

He explained that when combined with high unemployment and drug or alcohol abuse, the addition of guns has been devastating. Suicide rates are climbing, he said, not just because people are struggling more with depression, but because suicide attempts are far more successful with a firearm. "In the past I used to get a chance to counsel someone after they tried to kill themselves. Not anymore."

But the pastor said the presence of guns has almost completely shut down one of the church's most important ministries. Domestic violence is rampant throughout the region, he explained. Again, the result of poverty and substance abuse. So many women are abused, he said, that years ago churches came together to create a hotline to protect them. When feeling threatened, women called a phone number linked to a network of pastors and church elders. One or more would arrive at the woman's house to intervene, rescue her, or stay with her husband until he sobered up.

"Now," the pastor said, "with everyone carrying guns we can't get pastors and elders to sign up for the program. No one wants to walk into a house with a raging guy with a gun." He said even local police are more reluctant to intervene.

 

[snoopy]

Well.. how about addressing a cause and desire for suicide, and not the “methods”?

Well.... how about addressing “violence” and not the “tool”?

Great thoughts. What proposals have you seen to address these things?

 

[Habs]

Hmm. Doesn't seem to be anyone calling this what it is either. Oh wait, is the guy white? That'd explain why they're not calling him a terrorist...

I get what you're saying. I honestly do. But, terrorism is generally classified as something that is politically motivated. This appears to be a guy who just wanted to kill people. Hence, mass shooting, not terrorism.

Regardless, it's beyond awful and it's been happening far too often. My heart breaks for those people.

 

[missing]

This is harrowing.

I have to ask though, if all those guns are already out there, how do we get rid of them? Do we expect people to simply give them up?

I would like to have fewer guns but I seldom hear people advocate more than passing laws to get rid of them. The laws in and of themselves won't erase the existence of the guns. In some way, the government has to go get those guns. What would that look like?

What has become of ashtrays, rotary phones, VCRs, 1975 Datsuns with standard transmission?

Presumably they ended up in attics, or in landfills, or (ideally) recycled.

Americans are very good at ridding themselves of things. If weapons are thought of as consumer items (like 8tracks and electric knives), then they could end up on the top shelf of a closet or tossed in the garbage.

A certain percentage of Americans will always own weapons, just as a certain percentage will always drink to excess or smoke or shoplift. A small number of men will kill. The idea isn't to think the problem will go away. It's to minimize it. Fewer people nowadays buy cigarettes. I'd like to see an America where fewer people buy weapons.

 

[BlueRidge]

What has become of ashtrays, rotary phones, VCRs, 1975 Datsuns with standard transmission?

Presumably they ended up in attics, or in landfills, or (ideally) recycled.

Americans are very good at ridding themselves of things. If weapons are thought of as consumer items (like 8tracks and electric knives), then they could end up on the top shelf of a closet or tossed in the garbage.

A certain percentage of Americans will always own weapons, just as a certain percentage will always drink to excess or smoke or shoplift. A small number of men will kill. The idea isn't to think the problem will go away. It's to minimize it. Fewer people nowadays buy cigarettes. I'd like to see an America where fewer people buy weapons.

So what we need are not so much laws or law enforcement, but cultural changes. I think there's a lot to that.

 

[allezfred]

Imagine how many people would die if a person who planned and intended to kill a specific group of people, would have used explosives, if he could not get a gun, or ran them over with a truck in a parking lot.

One thing is clear now: if a person intends, plans and is mentally capable to commit a mass murder, he/she will find away; if he/she can't get guns, he/she will find other means. We have almost weekly examples of it. The issue is "state of mind", not "type of weapon".

Maybe you think having mass murders on a weekly basis in your country is acceptable. Certainly does not happen in the one I live in. It certainly does not happen in other developed nations with the frequency it does in the United States. The issue is most definitely the type of weapon and who has access to the type of weapon.

We all take our shoes off at airports because of one incident on an airplane ten years ago. Same with liquids. What is your problem with having strict background checks (extreme vetting, if you like ) for the purchase of guns?

 

[Gazpacho]

One thing is clear now: if a person intends, plans and is mentally capable to commit a mass murder, he/she will find away; if he/she can't get guns, he/she will find other means. We have almost weekly examples of it. The issue is "state of mind", not "type of weapon".

Tinami, you have been one of the most vocal opponents on this board of laws that expand healthcare access. How do you address these mental health problems while taking healthcare access away from those people?

 

[MacMadame]

Trump has tweeted that this is not a gun problem, but a mental health problem.

OK, then, let's work on solving that problem. You know since there is nothing that could possibly be done about gun violence.

Oh wait, no, we are actually working to make it harder for people with mental health needs to get care.

And easier to get guns.

I
It’s also worth noting that those with mental health issues are significantly more likely to be the victims of violence, not the perpetrators. I think that the “mentally ill = being violent” stick that always gets said when these things happen make it harder for those dealing with issues to want to pursue successful medical treatment because of the stigma.

This is true but it's also true that most gun deaths in the US are from suicides. I see making it easier for people with mental illness to get guns as equivalent to giving someone who is a cutter a new razor.

I have to ask though, if all those guns are already out there, how do we get rid of them? Do we expect people to simply give them up?

Gun buy-back programs. They are used all over especially after the law changes and what was once legal is no longer. But even countries who have stricter gun laws than we do still have periodic buy-back programs.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I get what you're saying. I honestly do. But, terrorism is generally classified as something that is politically motivated. This appears to be a guy who just wanted to kill people. Hence, mass shooting, not terrorism.

The poster you're responding to heard your/that argument many times before, as early as 2 days ago, but it is to no avail... It is "cool now days" to say something nasty about "white people" if you want to be "progressive"....

Great thoughts. What proposals have you seen to address these things?

If my car has failed breaks, and yet i am not a mechanic, i know enough to decide not to junk the whole car but to fix the breaks, and without knowing how to fix them simply take it to a mechanic.

So, since we all pay taxes, some of which fund research laboratories and university facilities, i'll let "those wise psychologists" find the solutions... .
Because you will not like mine. I am still in shock from the 1970's when all the "crazies" where let out of institutions and were walking around Berkeley, acting weird....
https://cbssanfran.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/berkeley-hateman-cbs-photo.jpg?w=720
... and some of them called themselves "poets" and "bohemians"..... floated around all day without work or purpose, and got government money to do so.
http://www.thestreetspirit.org/October2005/Vinograd.jpg

... there are qualified people in the science world who can figure out a balance between personal freedom and danger to society.

Tinami, you have been one of the most vocal opponents on this board of laws that expand healthcare access. How do you address these mental health problems while taking healthcare access away from those people?

I have no idea... nor obligated to have one. I came to USA with 2 suitcases and less than 100 dollars, with mother. Nobody paid for my healthcare, and nobody helped me not to be crazy with all the "influences" and "freedoms" that divert you hell knows where in this "Great and free America".

I actually have many solutions! If you want my solution, OK! but every body will have to live and do like me, and overcome obstacles by same methods. Do you like this idea?

 

[jeffisjeff]

So what we need are not so much laws or law enforcement, but cultural changes. I think there's a lot to that.

But one needs to consider why guns are an increasingly important part of our culture in the US. I think the NRA and Republican party are largely to blame. Owning a gun is one way to give a big FU to those eville elitist liberals that certain groups seem to hate so much.

 

[allezfred]

I have to ask though, if all those guns are already out there, how do we get rid of them? Do we expect people to simply give them up?

Australia had a gun amnesty where the government bought back the guns. Maybe money might talk?

 

[BlueRidge]

But one needs to consider why guns are an increasingly important part of our culture in the US. I think the NRA and Republican party are largely to blame. Owning a gun is one way to give a big FU to those eville elitist liberals that certain groups seem to hate so much.

Absolutely.

There's a whole cultural chain here. Look at the post that ilovepaydays linked to and the culture of fear--ginned up not just by the NRA, but all of the rightwing media.

We should try to enforce existing laws and pass new ones, but ultimately we're going to have to address these political/cultural factors successfully.

 

[BlueRidge]

Australia had a gun amnesty where the government bought back the guns. Maybe money might talk?

I don't think Australia faced the political/cultural factors involved with the proliferation of guns in the US. I mean, definitely jurisdictions should do buy backs, and in fact they have, but like everything else it hasn't been enough.

Again the climate of fear among the gun owning population that has been ginned up by the right wing media. The symbol of guns as anti-liberal/anti-cosmopolitan. Fears among whites of becoming a racial minority played on by the NRA.

There's a lot that has to be taken head on. The logic of why we should eliminate the assault and military style weapons in particular is impeccable but we're not in a rational debate.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Maybe you think having mass murders on a weekly basis in your country is acceptable.

provocation! i do not think mass murders on weekly basis is acceptable.

What is your problem with having strict background checks (extreme vetting, if you like ) for the purchase of guns?

provocation! i am in support extreme vetting and back ground checks.

But one needs to consider why guns are an increasingly important part of our culture in the US. I think the NRA and Republican party are largely to blame. Owning a gun is one way to give a big FU to those eville elitist liberals that certain groups seem to hate so much.

They deserve the hate, they are nasty, unfair and bias, and self serving, not to mention Orwellian "some are more equal than the others".

Australia had a gun amnesty where the government bought back the guns. Maybe money might talk?

There were buy-back programmes in USA.... it did not work.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/12/gun-buybacks-popular-but-ineffective/1829165/

 

[Gazpacho]

Tinami, you have been one of the most vocal opponents on this board of laws that expand healthcare access. How do you address these mental health problems while taking healthcare access away from those people?

I have no idea... nor obligated to have one.

This takes the art of cop out answers to a new level

 

[Tinami Amori]

This takes the art of cop out answers to a new level

It's this type of answer: USA has a system, not perfect, but economically best in the world, learn to use it and to deal with it, and take care of yourself. You want to help? start a charity with your own money.

 

[skatingfan5]

So it seems that a clerical error of neglecting to enter Devin Kelley's domestic violence into a federal database allowed him to pass the background check last year to buy the weapon he used in yesterday's massacre. I suppose he could have obtained it illegally or in a private sale, but he didn't have to go to any special effort.

 

[oleada]

So it seems that a clerical error of neglecting to enter Devin Kelley's domestic violence into a federal database allowed him to pass the background check last year to buy the weapon he used in yesterday's massacre. I suppose he could have obtained it illegally or in a private sale, but he didn't have to go to any special effort.

Link from the NYTimes discussing th above:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/texas-shooting-church.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

He bought the guns legally but shouldn't have been allowed to

 

[Tinami Amori]

Link from the NYTimes discussing th above:
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/texas-shooting-church.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage
He bought the guns legally but shouldn't have been allowed to

Exactly! He spent 12 months in the clink too, for violence, he should have been on a no-buy list.

 

[snoopy]

The republicans control all three branches of government. It's the perfect time to introduce legislation to address such things. They don't have to worry about 2nd amendment repeal. It's their move.

The poster you're responding to heard your/that argument many times before, as early as 2 days ago, but it is to no avail... It is "cool now days" to say something nasty about "white people" if you want to be "progressive"....


If my car has failed breaks, and yet i am not a mechanic, i know enough to decide not to junk the whole car but to fix the breaks, and without knowing how to fix them simply take it to a mechanic.

So, since we all pay taxes, some of which fund research laboratories and university facilities, i'll let "those wise psychologists" find the solutions... .
Because you will not like mine. I am still in shock from the 1970's when all the "crazies" where let out of institutions and were walking around Berkeley, acting weird....
https://cbssanfran.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/berkeley-hateman-cbs-photo.jpg?w=720
... and some of them called themselves "poets" and "bohemians"..... floated around all day without work or purpose, and got government money to do so.
http://www.thestreetspirit.org/October2005/Vinograd.jpg

... there are qualified people in the science world who can figure out a balance between personal freedom and danger to society.


I have no idea... nor obligated to have one. I came to USA with 2 suitcases and less than 100 dollars, with mother. Nobody paid for my healthcare, and nobody helped me not to be crazy with all the "influences" and "freedoms" that divert you hell knows where in this "Great and free America".

I actually have many solutions! If you want my solution, OK! but every body will have to live and do like me, and overcome obstacles by same methods. Do you like this idea?

 

[Tinami Amori]

The republicans control all three branches of government. It's the perfect time to introduce legislation to address such things. They don't have to worry about 2nd amendment repeal. It's their move.

Ok. why not?.. although i suspect whatever they introduce will not be good enough for Dems (just on a principle of it), but they should try....

 

[AxelAnnie]

But one needs to consider why guns are an increasingly important part of our culture in the US. I think the NRA and Republican party are largely to blame. Owning a gun is one way to give a big FU to those eville elitist liberals that certain groups seem to hate so much.

I have a slightly different take. Look at all the violence in movies and tv. Shoot I walked into my daughter's home to babysit....this is my anti-violence, no guns daughter . Her two boys were watching Clone Wars........ever heard of it. I have never seen such mayhem and death packed into 30 minutes.

Also, the proliferation of social media has allowed people to bully, demean, etc., invisibly, without taking any responsibility for the damage their posts create. It is perfect, they can say horrid things, start awful rumors without even seeing the look on the face of the person they are hurting.