U.S. Ice Dance 2017/18 season news & updates

[Debbie S]

And is it truly a "lift" if the girl is elevated all of 4 inches or so above the ice, stepping on her partner's boots and "striking a pose"?

Given the large number of teams that do lifts with a position like this, I would assume that TPTB have made it clear that the position is just like any other "lift" position. It is actually very challenging to be suspended like that - need a super-strong core and arm strength from both partners.

 

[kwanfan1818]

For Sochi, all skaters going to Nationals had to tell USFS in December 2013 in writing whether they wanted to participate, and, if so, in which program(s), and if they'd reconsider if the team needed them to do something else. As if they would appear to be rigid before Nationals was judged and the selection committee met.

Then USFS ranked the disciplines in the order of strength. The top skater/team in the strongest discipline chose first, in theory. If they didn't want to do both, or did, but were strong-armed into sharing, they get to do their preferred program unless they were strong-armed into doing the other, and then the next strongest skater/team, if there was one, would have been offered what was left, and if that skater/team didn't want to skate at all or the program that was left, they go to the third qualifier, if there was one. Then the next strongest discipline, etc., until the team was filed, with a max of two disciplines splitting segments.

In theory, if there wasn't a full roster, USFS could have gone back to skaters who agreed to consider changing their minds, and if they didn't change, to compete with three disciplines or give back the spot if there were three or less.

The feds don't have to declare subs for the frees until after the last short is competed. I don't recall if USFS had to tell the skaters earlier if they are subbing, or if it just maked strategic sense to announce right away and to prepare them.

In Sochi, D/W, like V/M, were the top team in the strongest discipline, and they had the clout to choose to skate both. I don't think any US skater or team has the clout to do that this year. With a tight race with China anticipated for team bronze, especially since it's a likely scenario that US will have to make up a pile of points in Pairs, USFS might prefer Chen to skate both Men's segments. I'm not so sure that would be Arutunian's preference.

 

[clairecloutier]

Changing topics, am I the only one excited about McNamara/Carpenter's results at CoC? I thought it was a great GP debut for them! Really enjoyed the SD. I feel the FD needs more polishing and a lot more connection between them, but still very nice overall.

I also enjoyed Pogrebinsky/Benoit's performances. M/C definitely are a bit stronger technically, but P/B have more of the polish and presentation level that I expect in seniors.

 

[jlai]

The good news is that two us ice dancing teams are likely to be able to participate in the team event since they are all pretty even in skills.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

I don't think the USFS had much of a strategy for the team event in Sochi - for one thing, it didn't seem to occur to anyone that the short program was more important because of the way points are handed out. I think they're unlikely to leave it up to the skaters to decide this time.

 

[kwanfan1818]

For Sochi, there was a lot of skepticism about the event and nothing to suggest how it would impact skaters for the individual events. No one wanted to appear unpatriotic or unwilling, since they had to declare in their Nationals paperwork their TE preferences, and that was open to USFS before the US Olympic Team had been chosen, but there was a lot of negativity worldwide about the timing and impact.

The scoring system for the TE was debated here and in some of the media as soon as it was published, ie, before USFS had to decide. We all know there are USFS people who read this and other boards laying out various scenarios and pointing out directly how scoring the frees made the free that much less impactful, although I don't ever disregard the USFS's ability to ignore what's in their face.

Before Sochi, the mandatory selection process document for the Olympics that USFS was required to submit to USOC was dated in the summer of 2013. Whatever the official selection process for the TE is, I assume it's already in writing and signed off/accepted by the USOC.

 

[Debbie S]

In that case, I would assume that team event selection is similar to the 'body of work' criteria for selecting individual event skaters. If the USOC is involved with approvals, then most likely it's not based strictly on Nats results b/c, as with individual selection, if Nats was the 'qualifier', then it would be considered an Oly trials and USOC would be able to run it and reap profits (if any). Whether USFS chooses to go in order of Nats ranking for the skaters selected for the Oly team is up to them, but given that they chose Ashley for the TE in Sochi despite her being the 3rd ranked (at Nats) lady on the Oly team would indicate they have a more holistic mindset.

I guess we'll see how it will play out with the U.S. dance teams. They are all pretty much equal with respect to matchups with the other contending teams in the TE...Canada, Russia, China, Japan. For the men, I'm sure USFS wants Nathan to do both but Raf likely has other ideas...I could see them using 2 men (subbing out Nathan for the FS) and 2 dance teams, with 1 lady. I guess it wouldn't shock me if they only used 1 dance team, but I would think they'd want to give at least 2 teams a shot at a team medal, given their collective body of work over the past quad.

 

[jlai]

Is it still going to be 10 countries in the team event and is the scoring still gonna be the same? Depending on which countries they are, US pairs may not look as dire in the team (given the Knierims are going). South Korea and Japan do not have strong pairs and depending on which other countries are competing, US pair may end up 6th even if Italy and France all beat Team USA in pairs. If they beat team Aussie and one other country they will be 6th .
On the other hand, almost all the countries potentially competing in team has a lady who potentially can have a good day at the team event.
I would say US ladies could be a weak link considering the inconsistency.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Scoring hasn't been disclosed in any documentation I've seen.

 

[Dobre]

Changing topics, am I the only one excited about McNamara/Carpenter's results at CoC? I thought it was a great GP debut for them! Really enjoyed the SD. I feel the FD needs more polishing and a lot more connection between them, but still very nice overall.

It was a great GP debut for them. Earned level 3 step sequences in both the SD and FD. (This is the first time for them to do this in senior competition). And level 4s for everything else. Their combined base value/levels were higher than every team at Cup of China except Papadakis & Cizeron. And the assistant technical specialist here was the same person who called the U.S. Classic the last two seasons--almost never gives anything higher than a level two footwork call there. The entire tech panel was from Europe.

Well done for Lorraine & Quinn. Solid.

 

[RoseRed]

Is it still going to be 10 countries in the team event and is the scoring still gonna be the same? Depending on which countries they are, US pairs may not look as dire in the team (given the Knierims are going). South Korea and Japan do not have strong pairs and depending on which other countries are competing, US pair may end up 6th even if Italy and France all beat Team USA in pairs. If they beat team Aussie and one other country they will be 6th .
On the other hand, almost all the countries potentially competing in team has a lady who potentially can have a good day at the team event.
I would say US ladies could be a weak link considering the inconsistency.

It's still 10 teams. As far as I know the scoring is the same. Right now it looks like the 10 teams will be:
- Canada
- Russia
- USA
- China
- Japan
- France
- Italy
- Germany
- South Korea
- Isreal

For the SP, you'll have Canada (D/R will def do the short), Russia, China, France ahead of the US for sure, a good chance of Italy ahead, and Germany ahead for sure if S/M do it (I don't know if they will, but I can see them doing the SP at least so that Bruno can get out there on Olympic ice). The USA team would probably at least beat Japan, SK, and Isreal. So 5th at the absolute best, but probably more likely 6th or 7th.

For ladies it's a bit harder to know, but you'll at least have Russia, Canada (Kaetlyn basically always nails the SP and it scores great) ahead, likely Japan too, Italy if Carolina skates okay. So best bet is probably 4th or 5th, with 3rd as the highest possibility for the SP IMO.


Back on dance, I'm hoping H/D can get the silver at NHK this week.

 

[baramin]

I imagine they’ll chose just one dance team to do short & free for the team. If you can only swap skaters in 2 events & we only have 1 pair, dance is the safest section for the US to double up. Chen has a legitimate chance at a solo medal, and the men’s event is right after the pairs, so they won’t want to over exert him. Any one of the US dance teams could pick up a bronze in the dance event, and none are going to place higher than 3rd in the team (assuming V/M & P/C skate both sections), and there’s a bit more recovery time between the team & solo events. The only way I see them not using only one dance team is if our ladies end up looking too inconsistent as the season goes on, and they decide to use Wagner (provided she makes the team) as the least likely to implode. It’s a shame, since all 3 dance teams are so strong & deserving.

It looks like Bobrova/Soloviev aren’t going to factor into the major podiums this season. I’m looking forward to seeing how the US looks against Weaver/Poje & Cappellini/Lanotte as we head towards the GP final.

 

[FiveRinger]

The good news is that two us ice dancing teams are likely to be able to participate in the team event since they are all pretty even in skills.

I thought about this over the weekend. Which US team is going to get dumped for the team competition? I'm curious to know your thoughts. I would like for it to be C/B, since I prefer the Shibs and H/D, but I might be prejudiced. This may have been discussed already, but this thread is too long to read.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

It would be a slap in the face to the US dance program if two teams aren't allowed to do the team event. This is the one discipline that deserves multiple medals. I think the Shibs and C/B have a leg up with their body of work, and I hope USFS agrees.

 

[CassAgain]

I think selecting the top two finishing teams at Nationals would be the fairest way. Madison and Zach deserve a chance as well.

 

[VGThuy]

I think whichever team manages to not only be the top placing American, but medals at the GPF will have an "in" for the team event. Whether or not they'll be joined by another team is a question that will put us on edge, I think.

I would hate not to have two teams represent the U.S. in the team event considering how consistently high-placing all three teams are in the past 2 and a half seasons. I think we'll only get 1 ice dance team if the USFS decides Nathan will benefit from being rested before the individual and not force him to do both the SP and LP and the USFS decides they need to showcase two ladies before the individual for marketing purposes and/or one of the American ice dance teams medals and scores well above teams 4-6 in the GPF to where they may have a shot of playing spoiler against the top two and it'll look good to have one ice dance team to make them look like a top contender with V/M and P/C as I do not believe Canada will put two ice dance teams since V/M are an almost guaranteed first or second place as of right now and Canada is going for gold. The last one is hard to believe as V/M and P/C are trading WRs when one of them steps out onto the ice these days. This is assuming the USFS are putting more priority over the individuals than the team event.

 

[SidelineSkater]

I agree it would be a shame not to use two US dance couples as they've consistently been the best discipline this quad. However, as stated by several already, I can see them splitting the men to rest Nathan, and then using two ladies, unless there is a clear #1 that shows up between now and nats - which isn't likely.

 

[sap5]

... as I do not believe Canada will put two ice dance teams since V/M are an almost guaranteed first or second place as of right now and Canada is going for gold. The last one is hard to believe as V/M and P/C are trading WRs when one of them steps out onto the ice these days. This is assuming the USFS are putting more priority over the individuals than the team event.

For whatever reason I feel like Canada will put V/M out for the SD, but W/P for the FD. Je Suis Malade is W/P's strongest program and I think they'll do quite well with it during the season.

 

[VGThuy]

For whatever reason I feel like Canada will put V/M out for the SD, but W/P for the FD. Je Suis Malade is W/P's strongest program and I think they'll do quite well with it during the season.

I doubt it because they are in the race for gold and with V/M they can get a first place ranking in the FD and all the points that can get while with WeaPo, they can place anywhere from last to third at best (if France makes the team final).

 

[RoseRed]

For whatever reason I feel like Canada will put V/M out for the SD, but W/P for the FD. Je Suis Malade is W/P's strongest program and I think they'll do quite well with it during the season.

Tessa and Scott have said they'd love to skate both if asked, so there's no way the Canadian fed will risk it, unfortunately for W/P.

 

[Dobre]

Tessa and Scott have said they'd love to skate both if asked, so there's no way the Canadian fed will risk it, unfortunately for W/P.

I'm not sure Canada knows yet whether W&P are a greater risk/bet than their #2 pairs team.

 

[RoseRed]

I'm not sure Canada knows yet whether W&P are a greater risk/bet than their #2 pairs team.

Yes, but pairs goes first after the team event, whereas dance is third. I'd be very surprised in D/R are willing to skate both programs, since they hope to contend for an individual medal and have had injury issues in the last year. So Canada will have no choice for pairs, but they will for dance.

 

[canadianskater]

Yes, but pairs goes first after the team event, whereas dance is third. I'd be very surprised in D/R are willing to skate both programs, since they hope to contend for an individual medal and have had injury issues in the last year. So Canada will have no choice for pairs, but they will for dance.

I had the same coversation with someone last week and said the same thing.

 

[Sylvia]

For those who enjoy looking at scores ...

ISU SB total scores of the 7 Grand Prix teams after Cup of China:
4) 189.43 Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE USA ISU GP Skate Canada 2017
5) 189.24 Maia SHIBUTANI / Alex SHIBUTANI USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
7) 184.50 Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES USA ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
15) 165.20 Kaitlin HAWAYEK / Jean-Luc BAKER USA ISU GP Skate Canada 2017
17) 163.14 Rachel PARSONS / Michael PARSONS USA ISU CS Ondrej Nepela Trophy 2017
20) 157.61 Lorraine MCNAMARA / Quinn CARPENTER USA ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
29) 150.47 Elliana POGREBINSKY / Alex BENOIT USA ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
---- 148.75 Rachel PARSONS / Michael PARSONS USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017

Short Dance [TES/PCS included]:
4) 77.30 [40.23/37.07] Maia SHIBUTANI / Alex SHIBUTANI USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
6) 76.08 [40.57/36.51 -1] Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE USA ISU GP Skate Canada 2017
8) 72.66 [35.97/36.69] Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES USA ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
14) 67.48 [36.72/30.76] Rachel PARSONS / Michael PARSONS USA ISU CS Ondrej Nepela Trophy 2017
20) 63.77 (JR) Christina CARREIRA / Anthony PONOMARENKO USA ISU JGP Minsk Arena Cup 2017
21) 63.65 [34.30/29.35] Lorraine MCNAMARA / Quinn CARPENTER USA ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
24) 63.10 [32.47/30.63] Kaitlin HAWAYEK / Jean-Luc BAKER USA ISU GP Skate Canada 2017
28) 61.36 [31.68/29.68] Elliana POGREBINSKY / Alex BENOIT USA ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2017
---- 59.41 [29.29/30.12] Rachel PARSONS / Michael PARSONS USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
---- 59.32 [30.14/29.18] Elliana POGREBINSKY / Alex BENOIT USA ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017

Free Dance [TES/PCS included]:
3) 113.35 [57.47/55.88] Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE USA ISU GP Skate Canada 2017
5) 111.94 [56.01/55.93] Maia SHIBUTANI / Alex SHIBUTANI USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
6) 111.84 [56.27/55.57] Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES USA ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
13) 102.10 [53.05/49.05] Kaitlin HAWAYEK / Jean-Luc BAKER USA ISU GP Skate Canada 2017
18) 95.66 [48.08/47.58] Rachel PARSONS / Michael PARSONS USA ISU CS Ondrej Nepela Trophy 2017
20) 93.96 [48.99/44.97] Lorraine MCNAMARA / Quinn CARPENTER USA ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
28) 91.15 [46.97/44.18] Elliana POGREBINSKY / Alex BENOIT USA ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
---- 89.34 [43.52/45.82] Rachel PARSONS / Michael PARSONS USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Again the scores are interesting to look at as a kind of marker and a general guide, even though the numbers are meaningless without context. Plus, trying to compare individual scores from event-to-event is not necessarily a determinant of overall outcomes, particularly when the scores are separated by percentage points. And when a high score at one event garnered gold, while a similarly high score at another event garnered bronze. Suffice to say that U.S. ice dance and Olympic ice dance events are going to be nail-biters/ heart-stoppers. It might pay to meditate and to take deep breaths before watching.

Placing the below discussion here from U.S. men's thread, re U.S. ice dance selection for Olympic team event:

I think they will split men’s & ladies and have the Shibs do dance.

The only reason I can think of that they would split dance is because another team scores consistently higher in either the SD or FD.

...
I can think of several:
-Because mathematically, splitting dance may be better for team USA than losing placements by putting up a second man and lady.
-Because the U.S. has two multi-World medalists in ice dance. Which they do not have in any other discipline.
-Because U.S. dance teams split placements at Worlds/Nationals/the GPF last season.
-Because the U.S. is likely to qualify multiple dance teams into the GPF for the fourth time this quadrennium.

What about the Shibs for the SD and Hubbell/Donahue for the FD?

ETA: Whoa, dancing on thin ice am I?

 

[TanithandBenFan]

What about the Shibs for the SD and Hubbell/Donahue for the FD?

I think we need to wait and see how the rest of the GP series and nationals scores look before assigning spots.

 

[aftershocks]

I think we need to wait and see how the rest of the GP series and nationals scores look before assigning spots.

Well, I'm not assigning spots. There is obviously a discussion going on about the team selection process and skating assignments for the team event, and quite a few fans are speculating about what might happen, and what might go into the decisionmaking. Of course, a decision is not going to be made at this point in the season. I am following from what is already being discussed. Should two ice dance teams be selected for the team event, and it happens to be Shibs and H/D, I was wondering what might be the best way to split the assignments. Since all of our ice dance teams have huge talent, the decisionmaking in all aspects is going to be difficult.

Unfortunately in figure skating, politics often enters into decisionmaking one way or another, both internationally and domestically. Fans have their faves as well. Is anyone perfectly neutral and objective? In fact, is it going to be a sticking point for the U.S. because all three top teams are so good? Perhaps one team will begin to separate themselves from the pack over the course of the season. It's rather tricky between who might be politically favored vs who international judges seem to prefer vs who can get the job done under pressure, etc., etc. Body of work vs best programs, best scores, and greatest momentum. I don't envy anyone the decision. But perhaps best choices might become evident by the end of Nationals. Or, not.

I also wonder whether all three teams will stick around after this Olympic season for another go round? There definitely needs to be a professional competitive tour in the sport of figure skating, or something.

ETA:
The Shibs are up for Team USA's team of the month award (and Nathan Chen is up for male athlete of the month):

Vote here:
https://awards.teamusa.org/

 

[Coco]

I created a team event strategies thread...

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/olympic-team-event-strategies-and-subs.102251/

 

[Sylvia]

TeamUSA.org article by Karen Rosen: Ice Dancers Madison Hubbell And Zachary Donohue Ready To Take The Next Step To The Olympics

A Day with Madison Hubbell and Zachary Donohue, Part 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61nXVRtkOBQ

Part 4 shows them in both their morning and afternoon ice sessions while Madi and Zach discuss the ebbs and flows of training before, after, and in between competitions. They also discuss the importance of osteopathy and physical therapy in keeping their bodies healthy and injury-free.

(Part 3 showed them lifting weights/doing off-ice strength training & conditioning. This series was filmed not long after their Challenger comp./season debut in Salt Lake City and before Skate Canada International.)

 

[Sylvia]

The Shibs are up for Team USA's team of the month award (and Nathan Chen is up for male athlete of the month)

The Shibutanis (and Nathan Chen) won for the month of October: https://www.teamusa.org/News/2017/N...rn-Best-Of-October-Honors-For-Team-USA-Awards

The sibling duo of Maia and Alex Shibutani opened the 2017-18 ISU Grand Prix Series with a dominant win in the ice dance competition at the Rostelecom Cup in Moscow. The two-time defending U.S. champions earned the top score in both the short dance and free dance, beating six-time Russian champions Ekaterina Bobrova and Dmitri Soloviev by nearly five points and finishing with a score of 189.24. The Shibutanis earned Level 4 accolades in four of five elements in the short dance and in five of seven elements in the free dance. The victory marked the pair’s fifth Grand Prix Series gold medal.