U.S. Ladies [#19]: Do You Know the Way to San Jose?

[jlai]

Truth be told if the caller is as strict as the one at sc we won't be calling this an amazing skate, but maybe complaining a bit why there are so many ur in the event.
I agree it was well skated, but our impression was partly influenced by the caller. Reverse the scenario-- Had the caller at China been the same as the one at SC we would have thought more kindly of Ashley's Lp and the other girls at Regina.

 

[zoe111]

With all due repsect, if that's what you saw, you didn't really look now, did you?
Higuchi is bringing something new and fresh to the sport, her FP is exceptional?!?
Zagitova is changing the game with composition, so much so they'll have to bring in a new rule to counter act the back end loading. She's literally changing the sport.
Mihara is fresh out of juniors but skating programs in line with Tara Lipinski's Olympic and World routines.
The world champion went clean and came 7th.
But - you didn't see high standard ?


At this point, Medvedeva will most likely win but Zagitova, Higuchi, Mihara could easily be 2,3,4 at the Olympics with Osmond, Daleman, Kostner, USA1 and RUS3 5/6/7/8/9

I don’t think it is Zagitova changing the sport. Most of Eteri ‘s kids have programs choreographed that way and I think at least two of her juniors are better than Zagitova on a number of fronts even though they are still quite young. Trusova (link below) is going to be fabulous and so is Kostornaya. I think they are both more musical than Zagitova, in particular Kostornaya.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OIVHFvhjLCI

 

[olympic]

Most top Russian and Japanese ladies usually skate their competitions like their very lives depended on it. For whatever reason, US ladies don't.

THIS

Perhaps the Russian ladies know that the talent pool is so vast that if they make errors or just stagnate, they are gone! Similarly, the Japanese ladies may also know that with 2 spots, they have little room for error and have to show the world (and the JSF) that they can hit a home run if they want to be on the team.

JMO - The pressure for the US ladies is maybe lower because all have their ups and downs. No solid front-runner right now setting the pace. Getting to the Olympics in the US is less of a hassle in comparison, but the problem is that the ladies from RUS and JPN will be hardened warriors by then (not that they aren't right now) and I am afraid if the US ladies' general, collective plan is to 'peak' for the Olympics / Worlds, they are seriously underestimating the competition. Not only that the RUS and JPN ladies will be on fire, but TPTB already will have those ladies pegged at higher score in their mind, due to their greater success rate from the Fall season, leaving US ladies in further jeopardy. Their is too much competition and too many nations / feds in contention these days for this 'peaking' business (if that is the strategy).

Finally, I hate to be pessimistic, but I would be surprised if the US still has 3 spots after 2018 Worlds.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

I LOVED CoC! Virtually all the ladies up top brought it! The caller was kind though - I saw several URs, even in real time, that weren't called on some of the top skaters and that seems so unfair to others. Some of those landings were no better than some of Ashley's, Karen's, and Mirai's close landings and other skaters at other events. Some get the benefit of the doubt, others don't. It can be frustrating.

 

[semogal]

Should US ladies have cleaner jump landings to avoid being put under the rotation microscope? Absolutely!! But it is unfair and does a disservice to the skaters & the fans when the tech callers from event to event (and sometimes within the event) are uneven in their pronouncement of underrotated jumps.

 

[Coco]

I want to start a youtube channel "Who's Jump Is It?" Show closeups of just the feet jumping in slow motion, then people can vote on what kind of jump it was and whether or not it was rotated, then we compare the results with what was actually called.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Should US ladies have cleaner jump landings to avoid being put under the rotation microscope? Absolutely!! But it is unfair and does a disservice to the skaters & the fans when the tech callers from event to event (and sometimes within the event) are uneven in their pronouncement of underrotated jumps.

I am sorry...but the American ladies earned that scrutiny. I bet if they got 0 credit fo a ur the would by fully rotating those babies in no time.

 

[skateboy]

I LOVED CoC! Virtually all the ladies up top brought it! The caller was kind though - I saw several URs, even in real time, that weren't called on some of the top skaters and that seems so unfair to others. Some of those landings were no better than some of Ashley's, Karen's, and Mirai's close landings and other skaters at other events. Some get the benefit of the doubt, others don't. It can be frustrating.

I posted something similar in the men's thread, but it seems appropriate here as well.

It is very important to realize that seeing a "hook" on a landing is not necessarily always a sign of underrotation. It all depends on where the takeoff skate left the ice. While some jumps are certainly underrotated, it is possible to have the rotations around and still hook a landing, which would mean complete rotation despite a less than optimal landing. This happens on lutz jumps, primarily, and sometimes flips.

It is similar with loops and even salchows, but in a different way: many fans are quick to call prerotation when seeing that quick hook upon takeoff but, if the rotations are complete from where the skate left the ice (after the hook), then the jump is fully rotated.

An experienced judge/technical caller can see this.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

I posted something similar in the men's thread, but it seems appropriate here as well.

It is very important to realize that seeing a "hook" on a landing is not necessarily always a sign of underrotation. It all depends on where the takeoff skate left the ice. While some jumps are certainly underrotated, it is possible to have the rotations around and still hook a landing, which would mean complete rotation despite a less than optimal landing. This happens on lutz jumps, primarily, and sometimes flips.

It is similar with loops and even salchows, but in a different way: many fans are quick to call prerotation when seeing that quick hook upon takeoff but, if the rotations are complete from where the skate left the ice (after the hook), then the jump is fully rotated.

An experienced judge/technical caller can see this.

Yes, I am aware of all of this. And all that being said, I still disagree with some of the calls or lack thereof. Some got the benefit of the doubt and some didn't. Happens at every competition, or so it would seem.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Most top Russian and Japanese ladies usually skate their competitions like their very lives depended on it. For whatever reason, US ladies don't.

American skaters still operate under that "pacing myself and wanting to peak at the right moment (nationals/worlds)" method. The thing that top skaters used to say over and over ten fifteen years ago after they made their season debuts at their first gp event. Of course things have changed a lot and you got big named skaters starting the season much earlier at B events.

The Japanese/Russians are using the early B events as their warm up and are ready to hit the ground running at at the gp while the US ladies still are in the warm up stage. It appears that even the US ladies who did do the senior Bs did them under a different mentality then the other ladies did. Instead of a light jog around the track it was a slow walk. Their a big step behind and are now only jogging while the Russians/Japanese are shifting to another gear.

It feels Bradie Tennell is the only one who saw the senior B as a bigger launching compared to the other American girls. We'll see how she does at Skate America later

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

American skaters still operate under that "pacing myself and wanting to peak at the right moment (nationals/worlds)" method. The thing that top skaters used to say over and over ten fifteen years ago after they made their season debuts at their first gp event. Of course things have changed a lot and you got big named skaters starting the season much earlier at B events.

The Japanese/Russians are using the early B events as their warm up and are ready to hit the ground running at at the gp while the US ladies still are in the warm up stage. It appears that even the US ladies who did do the senior Bs did them under a different mentality then the other ladies did. Instead of a light jog around the track it was a slow walk. Their a big step behind and are now only jogging while the Russians/Japanese are shifting to another gear.

It feels Bradie Tennell is the only one who saw the senior B as a bigger launching compared to the other American girls. We'll see how she does at Skate America later

SO agree. Ive yet to see Zag or Medev saying they are waiting to peak.

they just ..BAM... go in there and win...nevermind pacing......

 

[Vagabond]

I question the wisdom of expecting skaters to compete at full throttle in two Champion Series events, two Grand Prix events, the Grand Prix Final, Nationals, at least one ISU Championship, and the Olympics, World Team Trophy, or Team Challenge Cup, or at least five or six of these, which seems to be what people are demanding. It strikes me as a recipe for injury and burnout.

 

[alchemy void]

edit

 

[Coco]

Slutskaya competed a lot and had issues pacing herself, even before her health issues, iirc.

One thing that stands out about Eteri's students is they all have very similar builds: long limbed and skinnyskinny. They seem capable of more, physically, than other skaters. Not sure if it is their build or if their build allows them to stay in peak form longer without risk of injury.

 

[RockTheTassel]

THIS

Perhaps the Russian ladies know that the talent pool is so vast that if they make errors or just stagnate, they are gone! Similarly, the Japanese ladies may also know that with 2 spots, they have little room for error and have to show the world (and the JSF) that they can hit a home run if they want to be on the team.

JMO - The pressure for the US ladies is maybe lower because all have their ups and downs. No solid front-runner right now setting the pace. Getting to the Olympics in the US is less of a hassle in comparison, but the problem is that the ladies from RUS and JPN will be hardened warriors by then (not that they aren't right now) and I am afraid if the US ladies' general, collective plan is to 'peak' for the Olympics / Worlds, they are seriously underestimating the competition. Not only that the RUS and JPN ladies will be on fire, but TPTB already will have those ladies pegged at higher score in their mind, due to their greater success rate from the Fall season, leaving US ladies in further jeopardy. Their is too much competition and too many nations / feds in contention these days for this 'peaking' business (if that is the strategy).

Finally, I hate to be pessimistic, but I would be surprised if the US still has 3 spots after 2018 Worlds.

Russia is in a class of its own, obviously. But it's getting tiresome seeing the Japanese and the US women pitted against each other. So much complaining about Japan's two spots, especially because the US has three, and so much hype about how they have a consistency or ability that the US women don't. But the facts are that the Japanese women lost their third spot. It wasn't taken from them and handed to the US or anyone else -- everyone competed, and the results were the results. Yes, Satoko was injured, and yes, it's unfortunate because the Japanese women are doing well this year. But it is what it is. And even this season, only Wakaba is likely to make the GP Final. Mai's had some good performances and Satoko's current potential remains to be seen. But it's not like they're all dominating events and topping podiums.

As far as TPTB pegging competitors and putting skaters in jeopardy, look up how some of the Olympic/World medalists in recent years were doing in the previous fall. Yeah, reputation is a thing, but again, no female skater from the US or Japan is a reigning World medalist, a threat for the Olympic title, ect. There's little evidence that, come winter and spring, the Japanese will be rewarded and the US will be penalized regardless of how they deliver. Again, Russia is in a class of its own and their top two will likely beat most or all of the US and Japanese women because they have such high TES ability.

If you hate being pessimistic, then don't be. Hype and unrealistic expectations can be harmful, but so can negativity about events that are months away. While I'm not predicting any US women for the podium at this point, it's way to early to fret about spots. We've got a long season to go.

 

[skateboy]

SO agree. Ive yet to see Zag or Medev saying they are waiting to peak.

they just ..BAM... go in there and win...nevermind pacing......

Exactly.

If you have secure technique, there is no need to "peak." You simply keep yourself in optimal form.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Exactly.

If you have secure technique, there is no need to "peak." You simply keep yourself in optimal form.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

 

[VGThuy]

I do think there's something to be about older skaters who tend to take that approach than younger ones. I think every skater wants to go all-out until their bodies tell them they can't do it anymore, so they have to adopt different approaches.

 

[Coco]

Any word on who gets Golden Spin?

 

[mag]

Any word on who gets Golden Spin?

I think entries close on Friday.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I do think there's something to be about older skaters who tend to take that approach than younger ones. I think every skater wants to go all-out until their bodies tell them they can't do it anymore, so they have to adopt different approaches.

Kostner started getting ready early with Mishin, and was in top form by September.

 

[jiejie]

Kostner started getting ready early with Mishin, and was in top form by September.

Yes. Kostner, age 31, might not have the stamina/energy of the teenagers and maybe more aches and pains...but she showed up in September ready to roll and put out some quite respectable skating. She may not have the top technical content and the programs weren't all completely clean--but what she does, she does well most of the time. Her jumps don't get hit with underrotations, downgrades, or edge calls and at least to me, are pristine enough not to make the tech panel put their trigger fingers on the "Replay" button. Besides age, Kostner is hardly a waif, so if she can rotate her jumps, I cannot understand why all of the top 6 US ladies can't do likewise.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Yes, Kostner is watching the results of her fellow Italian Ladies like a hawk, sweating bullets about how her body of work stacks up, and has waited with bated breath to see which internationals and CS events her Fed will assign her to, while not knowing until they are assigned whether she'll be invited to a GP and change her plans around or whether she'll be competing at Regionals and/or Sectionals.

It's *exactly* the same thing.

 

[Wyliefan]

Kostner did triple-doubles in her long program. If that's what she has to do, then that's what she has to do, but let's not pretend that the stress on her body is comparable to the stress on the other girls' bodies.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Kostner did triple-doubles in her long program. If that's what she has to do, then that's what she has to do, but let's not pretend that the stress on her body is comparable to the stress on the other girls' bodies.

For a 31-year old her content is stressful enough. She is ready with the max content she can produce at this stage, and i am sure she is smart enough to set her expectations at medals accordingly.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

Yes. Kostner, age 31, might not have the stamina/energy of the teenagers and maybe more aches and pains...but she showed up in September ready to roll and put out some quite respectable skating. She may not have the top technical content and the programs weren't all completely clean--but what she does, she does well most of the time. Her jumps don't get hit with underrotations, downgrades, or edge calls and at least to me, are pristine enough not to make the tech panel put their trigger fingers on the "Replay" button. Besides age, Kostner is hardly a waif, so if she can rotate her jumps, I cannot understand why all of the top 6 US ladies can't do likewise.

I don't blame the top 6 U.S. ladies for URs - I blame their early training with whatever coaches taught them each, respectively, poor or merely fair technique early on. Yes, some of it is nerves and they get tight but I believe if they all had been trained properly early on, they wouldn't have these UR issues now. Jmo. All that being said - too bad for this generation of ladies. I believe all of these ladies have tried to correct their technique as older skaters and sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't. It's unfortunate. Some of the Russians have questionable technique on some of the jumps, but overall URs don't seem to be nearly as much of an issue. I don't know if technique went to heck after compulsory figures ended and some coaches just decided to teach their youngsters to jump jump jump and not bother much with edge technique, etc. I just don't know. Janet Lynn was not great at figures but that figures training imo helped to give her that floaty, lyrical look on the ice.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I don't blame the top 6 U.S. ladies for URs - I blame their early training with whatever coaches taught them each, respectively, poor or merely fair technique early on. Yes, some of it is nerves and they get tight but I believe if they all had been trained properly early on, they wouldn't have these UR issues now. Jmo. All that being said - too bad for this generation of ladies. I believe all of these ladies have tried to correct their technique as older skaters and sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't. It's unfortunate. Some of the Russians have questionable technique on some of the jumps, but overall URs don't seem to be nearly as much of an issue. I don't know if technique went to heck after compulsory figures ended and some coaches just decided to teach their youngsters to jump jump jump and not bother much with edge technique, etc. I just don't know. Janet Lynn was not great at figures but that figures training imo helped to give her that floaty, lyrical look on the ice.

Oh - there is tons of blame to go around. The Coaches, the Judges and the Ladies. They knew they had a problem, and did not fix it.

 

[Vagabond]

Kostner did triple-doubles in her long program. If that's what she has to do, then that's what she has to do, but let's not pretend that the stress on her body is comparable to the stress on the other girls' bodies.

Kostner was doing fully rotated triple-triples in competition during the 2004-05 season, if not earlier. Karen Chen was five years old at the time.

 

[Marco]

I am sure Kostner's 3/2 will become a 3/3 by the Olympics.

 

[Wyliefan]

I am sure Kostner's 3/2 will become a 3/3 by the Olympics.

Quite possibly . . . which means she's pacing herself. And if she needs to do that, there's nothing wrong with it. These skaters know their bodies, their capabilities, and their limitations a LOT better than we do.