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vesperholly

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Question re typical training in USA for younger girls. How common now days is this style of pol harness training for beginner jumps?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI7dmFLx5hk
I used a harness as a teenager to learn my axel but it didn't help much - I got the jump without it. Harnesses were used for multi-rotation jumps - axel, doubles and up. I've never seen them used to learn anything lower than a single axel. My rink had the kind that was attached to the ceiling. Fishing pole harnesses weren't used until early 00s maybe?

IMO ... if you need a harness for single jumps, skating probably isn't for you.
 

Willin

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@Tinami Amori It depends coach to coach. Most only use it for doubles/triples. It also depends on if the coach is strong enough. A lot of older coaches can't use the harness because they have trouble helping their skater lift, so if there's no one to help them, they just won't use the harness. I've never seen a harness used like the one in the video - usually they only lift the skater as the skater is jumping.

I think the bigger problem with early development is that calling isn't harsh enough at the lower levels, and make the penalty harsher. At local competitions I attended, URs were hardly called unless it was very obvious. I've also seen a few local skaters well known for URs getting no calls for URs when they get to competitions despite only being capable of URs in practice. Maybe if they told the callers to give no benefit to any doubt and more URs were called, fewer would happen.
The basic levels up to Pre-Juv (usually single axels with maybe a couple doubles in there) are also still on a 6.0 system, so there will be no judge feedback about URs on the score sheets until the skaters are at National Qualifying levels. The coaches can talk to the judges to see if their skater is UR'ing, but that's long after the fact and probably after a judge has watched 20+ skaters - so who knows if a judge can call them out on it. Even on the tests up to these levels, you only need singles - so if you can do clean singles, but not a clean double, the test judge probably won't tell you.

A lot of skaters at lower levels want to go to the Olympics, but few think about the little things that might come back to haunt them later. If they're winning competitions, they're good. Maybe they'll see a UR on the protocol later, and a good coach will work on it regardless of winning, but that may not be the case for all coaches. If the URs aren't even called, the skater or coach may not even know they need to work on it. And then, once they get to IJS judging they may be surprised that all those doubles they thought were clean are actually UR. Or, because the lower levels and club competitions may have less experienced callers, the skaters may show up to qualifying competitions (or even Nationals) at the Novice/Junior/Senior levels and finally start getting UR calls they should've been getting for years.
 

concorde

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Some summer competitions are now using IJS to score the Pre- Juvs.

If I remember correctly, my daughter was in the fishing pole harness on the single axle. And she was in ceiling harness well before that. I think when you start using it depends on what is available at your particular rink and / or the coach's preference.
 

Tahuu

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I want to start a youtube channel "Who's Jump Is It?" Show closeups of just the feet jumping in slow motion, then people can vote on what kind of jump it was and whether or not it was rotated, then we compare the results with what was actually called.

Maybe you could ask this YouTuber, who has posted numerous videos of triples and quadruples of current and former skaters in both regular and slow-mo, to let you repost his/her videos in your channel for viewers to vote.
 

JJS5056

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Oh, wow; people honestly believe that a skater can sustain their optimal form for the entirety of the season/the entirety of a career? Just from a psychological standpoint, that notion is impossible. Building up to the big meet and having sustained periods of down time are crucial for a skater that wants to skate more than one season.

Expecting the U.S. Ladies to be competing anywhere near the level of the RUS crew is just not a fair ask. The top contenders from the U.S. are nearly a decade older than the Russian girls. For all the complaining, people forget so easily that Ashley Wagner went from a hit-or-miss 2A-3T LP to a 3Z-3T + 3L-.5L-3S (bonus) at age 23. Her skating at 23 and 24 is incredibly impressive as we have seen the most talented skaters crumble under the task of technique overhauls (Asada, for example). Unfortunately, it seems her lutz improvements and stamina for the 2nd 3-3 are MIA, but there several posts equating these ladies to essentially being lazy, and that is total nonsense. Mirai, age 24, is competing her most difficult programs ever including a very decent 3A attempt. Fans complained for so long that the U.S. Ladies had fallen behind the technical curve, and their response was to attempt content that is as difficult as their competition and as the rules allow. We are seeing limitations creeping in, whether it be the limit of their talent, body, mind, coach, etc. If you think any skater trains the hours they do just to go to competitions and half-ass it is absurd. And, I am sure if they could fix their UR issues easily, they would have done so. Again, look at what happened to Mao when she tinkered with her jump technique.

Will U.S. Ladies ever be competitive with what we are seeing in RUS right now? No, not likely. The socioeconomic constraints of America make it impossible to have a system that churns out superstars. A successful U.S. Lady needs talent and then a whole lot of other things going her way, like a family with the funds to get her training at an early age, a birthplace that is near a rink with the coaching staff capable of monitoring her progress, a willingness to pack up and head cross-country if their skills stagnate, a resistance to earning a college degree at the same time as their peers while also having peace with knowing that without an unlikely Olympic gold, their skating is a money pit with absolutely no ROI.

Can or will U.S. Ladies be more competitive than they are now as a whole? Of course. We are seeing the twilight years of the best of a very rough period in Wagner and Nagasu (and heck, Zhang). These are skaters that were not brought up under IJS, which will be the biggest factor in raising the technical abilities of the U.S. team.

I do think that USFSA would be wise to develop a true ranking system so skaters understand, to the point, what the importance of each competition is for their chances of reaching whatever their goal is. This weird mentality of peaking for Nationals, while also knowing 'body of work' can be thrown down upon you regardless has to have a negative impact on the psyche. A true ranking system would erase the notion of peaking at Nationals, and skaters WILL prepare harder for the early B competitions and such. They'll also know when fighting for that extra level is worth the energy or not.
 

olympic

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Russia is in a class of its own, obviously. But it's getting tiresome seeing the Japanese and the US women pitted against each other. So much complaining about Japan's two spots, especially because the US has three, and so much hype about how they have a consistency or ability that the US women don't. But the facts are that the Japanese women lost their third spot. It wasn't taken from them and handed to the US or anyone else -- everyone competed, and the results were the results. Yes, Satoko was injured, and yes, it's unfortunate because the Japanese women are doing well this year. But it is what it is. And even this season, only Wakaba is likely to make the GP Final. Mai's had some good performances and Satoko's current potential remains to be seen. But it's not like they're all dominating events and topping podiums.

As far as TPTB pegging competitors and putting skaters in jeopardy, look up how some of the Olympic/World medalists in recent years were doing in the previous fall. Yeah, reputation is a thing, but again, no female skater from the US or Japan is a reigning World medalist, a threat for the Olympic title, ect. There's little evidence that, come winter and spring, the Japanese will be rewarded and the US will be penalized regardless of how they deliver. Again, Russia is in a class of its own and their top two will likely beat most or all of the US and Japanese women because they have such high TES ability.

If you hate being pessimistic, then don't be. Hype and unrealistic expectations can be harmful, but so can negativity about events that are months away. While I'm not predicting any US women for the podium at this point, it's way to early to fret about spots. We've got a long season to go. ;)

With regard to the Japanese ladies, I was focused on their scores, not podium finishes - Higuchi and Mihara are posting some fine scores and are in a better position right now than US ladies. It's not 100% certain what will happen in February, but it is nonetheless indicative.

I'm fine with pessimism if I think it's reality based. :)
 

RockTheTassel

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With regard to the Japanese ladies, I was focused on their scores, not podium finishes - Higuchi and Mihara are posting some fine scores and are in a better position right now than US ladies. It's not 100% certain what will happen in February, but it is nonetheless indicative.

I'm fine with pessimism if I think it's reality based. :)

But what do scores truly mean when compared across competitions? There's enough squabbling over the scores and tech panel calls and PCS within a competition. I don't see how accurate comparisons and conclusions can be drawn over some early season numbers from several different competitions. And the idea that this is somehow going to influence the judges several months down the road regardless of how the skaters deliver doesn't really seem reality based.
 

Seerek

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Most top Russian and Japanese ladies usually skate their competitions like their very lives depended on it. For whatever reason, US ladies don't.

I had thought that the idea of a domestic Grand Prix would make sense in the U.S., but as stated above, it may not make too much sense if the competitive mindset isn't there to begin with.
 

Coco

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If a us skater can earn opportunities through the name of her club, her coach's connections or her look/potential, why should she approach competition as if her life depended on it?
 

jiejie

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But what do scores truly mean when compared across competitions? There's enough squabbling over the scores and tech panel calls and PCS within a competition. I don't see how accurate comparisons and conclusions can be drawn over some early season numbers from several different competitions. And the idea that this is somehow going to influence the judges several months down the road regardless of how the skaters deliver doesn't really seem reality based.

I think you can draw general comparisons and conclusions by looking at a skater's RANGE of scores across competitions. There is a pattern between ladies that can regularly post 200+ scores, vs those that are stuck in the 170's and 180's....with an occasional foray into the 190's. And the latter--not the former--describes the US ladies at present.
 

toddlj

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I think you can draw general comparisons and conclusions by looking at a skater's RANGE of scores across competitions. There is a pattern between ladies that can regularly post 200+ scores, vs those that are stuck in the 170's and 180's....with an occasional foray into the 190's. And the latter--not the former--describes the US ladies at present.
Also a pretty accurate description of last year at this time, and the year before. And the year before that. At least one US lady tends to step up at the last minute.
 

RockTheTassel

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I think you can draw general comparisons and conclusions by looking at a skater's RANGE of scores across competitions. There is a pattern between ladies that can regularly post 200+ scores, vs those that are stuck in the 170's and 180's....with an occasional foray into the 190's. And the latter--not the former--describes the US ladies at present.

Of course there can be patterns with the scores, but it's just so little to go off of at this point. Most US women have done, what, one GP and a Senior B? The scores may indicate something, but the woes about how those scores will largely determine how they're judged later on, and that three spots are in jeopardy, ect. is excessive. There's a difference between being realistic and being needlessly negative. I completely agree that the US women have a lot of work to do and don't look like World/Olympic podium contenders at this point. What I can't get behind is the doom and gloom over an entire nation of skaters based on a couple of early competitions.
 

Joubabe

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What I can't get behind is the doom and gloom over an entire nation of skaters based on a couple of early competitions.

I wish it were just a couple of early competitions. Unfortunately, last season was troubling to say the least. Ashley had what for her was a mediocre season, Gracie went into a decline, Polina was injured, and none of our other ladies rose up to take their places. Karen Chen had some brilliant and promising skates but unfortunately her inconsistency hasn't gotten any better.

Despite all that, I'm an optimist at heart. I haven't given up on Ashley. She's a true fighter and talented to boot. I'm hoping that Gracie overcomes her demons and returns to her prior form. I miss her terribly! Likewise I'm hoping Polina can make it back from injury. And I'm hoping Bradie Tennell, Amber Glenn, Mariah Bell and some of the other younger ladies can get on future podiums.
 

olympic

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I think you can draw general comparisons and conclusions by looking at a skater's RANGE of scores across competitions. There is a pattern between ladies that can regularly post 200+ scores, vs those that are stuck in the 170's and 180's....with an occasional foray into the 190's. And the latter--not the former--describes the US ladies at present.

Thank you. This is what I am talking about generally.
 

kwanfan1818

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Arutunian said something in an interview about how it was ridiculous to expect Asada to have correct jumping technique after rewarding her for all those years without it. After all, she was Mao.

Why would coaches force proper technique if it isn't an issue at the time, especially when those underrotated but harder jumps and ones with incorrect takeoffs get kids so much attention, wins, and success that breed leniency/benefit-of-the-doubt from judges and the tech panels? Parents and kids want results, and it becomes a Catch-22: who wants to commit the time and money and have the other kids in the family suffer disproportionately if the results aren't there during the critical developmental years where it has to become all in?

You have to have most if not all of the people handing out the rewards, assignments, subsidies, and recognition to agree that correct technique is required, and there is too much incentive to break ranks, just as there's still too much incorrect technique being rewarded by judges and panels at the championship level, or at least not penalized enough to make the differential meaningful in most cases.
 

RockTheTassel

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Thank you. This is what I am talking about generally.

Your original post didn't really mention scores, but rather the idea that the US women can't focus on peaking because Japan and Russia will leave them in the dust if they do, no matter how they all skate later. That's what had me :huh:

There are some legit concerns. But I feel that year after year we are proclaiming someone the next champion or dooming them to the bottom of the heap during the fall. And year after year, things change, surprises happen, and predictions fail, come winter or spring. Even with scores, it's common for skaters to get their seasons' best scores, sometimes by a considerable margin, at Worlds.

I know that this is FSU, where we debate and predict constantly. ;) But I suppose I've learned that so many predictions just don't come true, so I don't see the point in getting wildly optimistic or pessimistic over any skater/competition/season/nation.
 

Coco

Rotating while Russian!
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Parents need to get the message that good technique is an absolute must to succeed at the levels before a skater gets to NAtionals.

Different sport, but similar issue. The gymnastics training center in our town was forever losing gymnasts to Geddert's (where Jordyn Weiber trained), which was less than 90 minutes away, because Geddert's took them through the various levels so much faster, but with poor form (frequently). The local coach was a stickler for form. Parents didn't see a 'payoff' for perfect form because it was losing out to difficulty in the regional and national scene. She lost a lot of gymnasts because of this.
 

vesperholly

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Wow, I wish you would have told my then-late 40s self this years ago, and I would have thrown my skates in the trash. God forbid that the harness helped give me a good single salchow...

For the record, I didn't skate as a kid.
Didn't mean to insult you. We weren't talking about skaters in their 40s - Tinami wrote "Question re typical training in USA for younger girls" in the post I replied to.

Adult skating is an entirely different ball of wax. If adult skaters need a harness for a single jump, then they should absolutely do so - there's a lot more fear and safety to take into account at 40 vs 10. Congrats on getting a good salchow!
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

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Arutunian said something in an interview about how it was ridiculous to expect Asada to have correct jumping technique after rewarding her for all those years without it. After all, she was Mao.

Why would coaches force proper technique if it isn't an issue at the time, especially when those underrotated but harder jumps and ones with incorrect takeoffs get kids so much attention, wins, and success that breed leniency/benefit-of-the-doubt from judges and the tech panels? Parents and kids want results, and it becomes a Catch-22: who wants to commit the time and money and have the other kids in the family suffer disproportionately if the results aren't there during the critical developmental years where it has to become all in?

You have to have most if not all of the people handing out the rewards, assignments, subsidies, and recognition to agree that correct technique is required, and there is too much incentive to break ranks, just as there's still too much incorrect technique being rewarded by judges and panels at the championship level, or at least not penalized enough to make the differential meaningful in most cases.

I am reminded of a clip I saw of Alissa Czisny skating as a junior. Even then, it was concerning her jumping technique would not stand her in good stead long term. Even though it was probably too late to really fix up what had gone wrong, kudos to Yuka Sato and Jason Dunjen for doing their best to give her a stronger base to work from when she went to them.
 

Coco

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It is the US Ladies through so I'll ask...how is Alissa doing these days? I'm bummed she wasn't in the last few tours of SOI. I hope she's well.
 

olympic

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Your original post didn't really mention scores, but rather the idea that the US women can't focus on peaking because Japan and Russia will leave them in the dust if they do, no matter how they all skate later. That's what had me :huh:

There are some legit concerns. But I feel that year after year we are proclaiming someone the next champion or dooming them to the bottom of the heap during the fall. And year after year, things change, surprises happen, and predictions fail, come winter or spring. Even with scores, it's common for skaters to get their seasons' best scores, sometimes by a considerable margin, at Worlds.

I know that this is FSU, where we debate and predict constantly. ;) But I suppose I've learned that so many predictions just don't come true, so I don't see the point in getting wildly optimistic or pessimistic over any skater/competition/season/nation.

Here is my original post. I did mention scores but maybe I should have flushed out that concept more inmy post because that is the basis of my opinion:

THIS

Perhaps the Russian ladies know that the talent pool is so vast that if they make errors or just stagnate, they are gone! Similarly, the Japanese ladies may also know that with 2 spots, they have little room for error and have to show the world (and the JSF) that they can hit a home run if they want to be on the team.

JMO - The pressure for the US ladies is maybe lower because all have their ups and downs. No solid front-runner right now setting the pace. Getting to the Olympics in the US is less of a hassle in comparison, but the problem is that the ladies from RUS and JPN will be hardened warriors by then (not that they aren't right now) and I am afraid if the US ladies' general, collective plan is to 'peak' for the Olympics / Worlds, they are seriously underestimating the competition. Not only that the RUS and JPN ladies will be on fire, but TPTB already will have those ladies pegged at higher score in their mind, due to their greater success rate from the Fall season, leaving US ladies in further jeopardy. Their is too much competition and too many nations / feds in contention these days for this 'peaking' business (if that is the strategy).

Finally, I hate to be pessimistic, but I would be surprised if the US still has 3 spots after 2018 Worlds.
 

Jarrett

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I wonder if Mirai or Mariah will go to Golden Spin. Mirai said one more to go and referred to Nationals after her long today but earlier in the season she did say she wanted another Challenger Series event.
 

Willin

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I've wondered if Raf was the right choice for Mariah. He really helped Adam/Ashley, but Mariah's having trouble.
I think, though, that this might be the result of her being in the spotlight as a potential Olympic team member. She's always struggled with nerves, and what is more pressure than being considered for the Olympics? We should probably wait to judge until next season if she decides to continue.
 
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