U.S. Ice Dance 2017/18 season news & updates

[semogal]

Wow, Nationals just got a lot more interesting!! That was an amazing FD from Madison and Zach at Skate Canada.

 

[VGThuy]

I do wonder if the USFS will use one or two ice dance slots. Most likely two since I can see them using 1 slot for Men for Nathan unless Nathan/Raf say they only want to skate once to better preserve him for the individual event, and they have no choice but to use 1 slot for Pairs.

 

[Debbie S]

I would assume there will be 2 dance teams in the team event - it seems only fair, with the teams all earning int'l medals and placing top 6 at Worlds during the quad. Based on body of work, it would look like the Shibs and C/B, but H/D are making a strong case. I wouldn't want to be on the selection committee. But compared to the other team event contenders, it's likely that any of the USA teams will earn the same placement competing individually - they'll likely place behind V/M and P/C and have an equally good chance of beating B/S and C/L. There isn't a weak link but not a clearly strong link (like D/W in Sochi) either.

I would hope C/B would earn a spot, since they have competed on each post-Worlds team event this quad, and skated/placed very well at each. But we'll see.

 

[carriecmu0503]

delete

 

[kwanfan1818]

Caveat: I haven't seen P/C live as seniors.

If H/D's FD isn't the best-skated FD I've seen live, it is certainly up anong them.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I loved that FD of H&D. Wow. Im so into Dance these days.

I wonder how C&B are doing these days.

2-3 years ago they were my favorite USA team. However both their music selections last season left me looking at other teams with more excitement.

 

[semogal]

So here is how the US ID teams are stacking up so far this season:
Total Score:
189.43 Hubbell/Donohue, Skate Canada, 3rd
189.24 Shibutani/Shibutani, Rostelecom Cup, 1st
178.80 H/D, Salt Lake City, 1st
165.20 Hawayek/Baker, Skate Canada, 4th
163.14 Parsons/Parsons, Nepela, 2nd
154.50 McNamara/Carpenter, Autumn Classic, 5th
153.55 H/B, Salt Lake City, 2nd
150.42 Pogrebinsky/Benoit, Lombardia, 4th
148.75 Parsons, Rostelecom Cup, 8th
141.78 M/C, Finlandia, 8th
127.12 Biechler/Dodge, Salt lake City, 8th
126.48 Manta/Johnson, Nebelhorn, 14th
119.79 B/D, Finlandia, 17th

Short Dance:
77.30 Shibutanis, Rostelecom Cup, 1st
76.08 Hubbell/Donohue, Skate Canada, 3rd (1 pt time deduction)
67.48 Parsons, Nepela, 2nd
63.10 Hawayek/Baker, Skate Canada, 5th
62.00 McNamara/Carpenter, Autumn Classic, 4th
61.37 Pogrebinsky/Benoit, Lombardia, 3rd
59.41 Parsons, Rostelecom Cup, 7th
57.77 M/C, Finlandia, 6th
56.65 H/B, Salt Lake City, 3rd (1 pt)
51.91 Manta/Johnson, Nebelhorn, 12th (1 pt)
50.36 Biechler/Dodge, Salt Lake City, 7th
41.89 B/D, Finlandia, 18th (2 pt fall)

Free Dance:
113.35 Hubbell/Donohue, Skate Canada, 2nd
111.94 Shibutanis, Rostelecom Cup, 1st
107.65 H/D, Salt Lake City, 1st
102.10 Hawayek/Baker, Skate Canada, 4th
96.90 H/B, Salt Lake City, 2nd
95.66 Parsons, Nepela, 3rd
92.50, McNamara/Carpenter, Autumn Classic, 6th
89.34 Parsons, Rostelecom Cup, 8th
89.06 Pogrebinsky/Benoit, Lombardia, 4th
84.01 M/C, Finlandia, 9th (1 pt)
77.90 Biechler/Dodge, Finlandia, 15th (1pt)
76.76 B/D, Salt Lake City, 8th
74.57 Manta/Johnson, Nebelhorn 14th (1 pt)

 

[Dobre]

It's going to be a battle.

But compared to the other team event contenders, it's likely that any of the USA teams will earn the same placement competing individually - they'll likely place behind V/M and P/C and have an equally good chance of beating B/S and C/L.

Hard to know. One matchup at a time. It would help if everybody can make the GPF, which is by no means going to be easy but is also within the teams' ability to achieve. (Even with a third place, H&D have a strong score if team U.S.A. can force a tie-breaker. W&P, B&S, and C&L will all likely have to get past a U.S. team in neutral territory in order to qualify based purely on placements above a team with a third place).

 

[Rock2]

Even as a Canadian, I think H&D skated to silver in Regina. That free was HOT and well trained. I continue to be floored at the skills and packaging being generated out of the Montreal school.

I think W/P by comparison may end up being disappointed with scoring as season progresses. Great for them they have a serious shot at GPF which will help their cause, but I didn't see edging, power and precision that came anywhere close to H&D.

I hope the awesome drama in CAN and US is not overshadowed by any RUS politicking that sends their best team to bronze in KOR. Let the best team get it, I say.

 

[Sylvia]

It's the first week of November, and Madison Chock and Evan Bates are set to (finally) debut their Olympic programs this week at the 2017 Cup of China in Beijing.
"We've watched, we've followed the results, exciting stuff is happening," Chock said. "And we're excited to jump in and join the party."

Full article: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/11/02/260458410

FUN FLUFF - 23 Questions with Madison Chock and Evan Bates:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUqnMkFuQsw

From Oct. 20:

Today I came across this Pogrebinsky/Benoit NBC video feature & article (scroll down for an extra video of Alex acting): http://ksn.com/2017/10/19/going-for-the-gold-ice-dancers-dream-of-the-biggest-stage/
This was filmed in Lake Placid, Novi ice arena and Oakland University's theatre/stage where Alex played the male lead in "Bullets over Broadway."

Good luck at Cup of China also to Ellie P. & Alex B. and to Lorraine McNamara & Quinn Carpenter (their Grand Prix debut!).

 

[teacakes]

Do H/D really not have any sponsors for this season? Like what???

 

[jbuckbee]

Do H/D really not have any sponsors for this season? Like what???

That would be true. But having an agency represent you to get sponsors is a minimum of $2500 per month.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

That would be true. But having an agency represent you to get sponsors is a minimum of $2500 per month.

I think David Baden with IMG is their agent. He tweets about them.

C/B are two-time world medalists and just got their first big sponsor, so I don't think it's unusual that H/D don't have a big sponsorship deal.

 

[semogal]

Score tracker updated to include Cup of China results:
Total Score:
189.43 Hubbell/Donohue, Skate Canada, 3rd
189.24 Shibutani/Shibutani, Rostelecom Cup, 1st
184.50 Chock/Bates, Cup of China, 2nd
178.80 H/D, Salt Lake City, 1st
165.20 Hawayek/Baker, Skate Canada, 4th
163.14 Parsons/Parsons, Nepela, 2nd
157.61 McNamara/Carpenter, Cup of China, 5th
154.50 M/C, Autumn Classic, 5th
153.55 H/B, Salt Lake City, 2nd
150.47 Pogrebinsky/Benoit, Cup of China, 7th
150.42 P/B, Lombardia, 4th
148.75 Parsons, Rostelecom Cup, 8th
141.78 M/C, Finlandia, 8th
127.12 Biechler/Dodge, Salt lake City, 8th
126.48 Manta/Johnson, Nebelhorn, 14th
119.79 B/D, Finlandia, 17th

Short Dance:
77.30 Shibutanis, Rostelecom Cup, 1st
76.08 Hubbell/Donohue, Skate Canada, 3rd (1 pt time deduction)
72.66 Chock/Bates, Cup of China, 2nd
67.48 Parsons, Nepela, 2nd
63.65 McNamara/Carpenter, Cup of China, 5th
63.10 Hawayek/Baker, Skate Canada, 5th
62.00 M/C, Autumn Classic, 4th
61.37 Pogrebinsky/Benoit, Lombardia, 3rd
59.41 Parsons, Rostelecom Cup, 7th
59.32 P/B, Cup of China, 7th
57.77 M/C, Finlandia, 6th
56.65 H/B, Salt Lake City, 3rd (1 pt)
51.91 Manta/Johnson, Nebelhorn, 12th (1 pt)
50.36 Biechler/Dodge, Salt Lake City, 7th
41.89 B/D, Finlandia, 18th (2 pt fall)

Free Dance:
113.35 Hubbell/Donohue, Skate Canada, 2nd
111.94 Shibutanis, Rostelecom Cup, 1st
111.84 Chock/Bates, Cup of China, 2nd
107.65 H/D, Salt Lake City, 1st
102.10 Hawayek/Baker, Skate Canada, 4th
96.90 H/B, Salt Lake City, 2nd
95.66 Parsons, Nepela, 3rd
93.96 McNamara/Carpenter, Cup of China, 5th
92.50, M/C, Autumn Classic, 6th
91.15 Pogrebinsky/Benoit, Cup of China, 7th
89.34 Parsons, Rostelecom Cup, 8th
89.06 P/B, Lombardia, 4th
84.01 M/C, Finlandia, 9th (1 pt)
77.90 Biechler/Dodge, Finlandia, 15th (1pt)
76.76 B/D, Salt Lake City, 8th
74.57 Manta/Johnson, Nebelhorn 14th (1 pt)

 

[jlai]

We all know who is going to the Olympics. As for 4cc, early season results so far seem to favor the new seniors and H/B.

 

[firstflight]

We all know who is going to the Olympics. As for 4cc, early season results so far seem to favor the new seniors and H/B.

Agreed. The Parsons’ lower scores at Rostelecom Cup are entirely due to Michael’s twizzles mistake in both programs.

 

[chameleonster]

It's going to be very close- both for the top three teams going to the Olympics, and for the four teams fighting for 4CC(H/B, Parsons, M/C, P/B). Each group is getting the same PCS- M/C and P/B were within tenths of each other here, and Shibs, H/d, and C/B have all gotten basically the same PCS in the three events we've seen thus far. It's going to be very close, and likely come down to levels and GOE. The race for the national title and the 4CC team will be exciting to watch.

 

[Cayuse]

Congratulations to Madison and Evan for such a nice debut in China and earning the silver medal. This is the first free dance of theirs that I ever wanted to rewatch. Probably helps that I still find Imagine an emotional song (showing my generation ) I especially enjoyed that Maddie didn't go over the top in expression in the free.

 

[Coco]

I'm curious to see which teams skate the team event at the Olympics. There is a whole hierarchy spelled out as to which discipline and which skaters can first crack at competing or electing which - if any - phases to compete in. Sorry that I don't have it at my fingertips. But I am pretty sure the #1 dance and #1 men's competitors will get to elect to do only one program if they choose, by virtue of us only having one pair and the ladies team being comparatively weaker.

 

[AnaBanana]

Congratulations to Madison and Evan for such a nice debut in China and earning the silver medal. This is the first free dance of theirs that I ever wanted to rewatch. Probably helps that I still find Imagine an emotional song (showing my generation ) I especially enjoyed that Maddie didn't go over the top in expression in the free.

I think this whole newly found chemistry between them #ifyouknowwhatImean contributes a ton to the overall expressiveness in the FD. They do not seem over the top and they do not come across as boring either (the problem of some programs that attempt to imitate PC), - all thanks to this existing chemistry between them.

 

[SCeline]

Team Event happens right at the start of the Games. Smart athlete selection across the disciplines will be critical. Literally millions of people will be tuning in, the vast majority not figure skating ubers, looking to see if their country's athletes can deliver under pressure, deliver when it counts.

 

[AnaBanana]

I have a technical question (avoiding to finally look at the protocols and learn all that GOE and dance elements terminology but I did for the CoC short dance results): to me, as an outsider who knows very little about the technical intricacies of FS, Chock/Bates lifts look very impressive and they've always been. But then, and as much as I love PC and their contribution to the aesthetics of FS, I would say that most of their lifts do not look as impressive, especially in last year's free dance. But they seem to always get level 4 for their lifts, whereas Chock/Bates do not always get level 4 for their lifts (or did they this time?Would sincerely appreciate how to figure out from the protocol which level they initially declared and which level they got as those ice dancing elements abbreviations are sometimes just mind-boggling), so why is this the case? Why PC get level 4 for their lifts when they do oftentimes appear as sophisticated even from an ex-dancer perspective? Does it have to do with how they've transitioned into the lift, i.e. how they started the lift and then how they've finished it?

 

[Debbie S]

The ISU and USFS websites contain links to the docs that spell out how levels are determined for each element in dance...I don't have those links handy but I think someone may have posted them somewhere on FSU? Anyway, there are specific requirements for determining levels, based on the number of features the element contains. For lifts, features that increase the level include things like difficult entrance/exit, how the lifted partner is balanced, the position of the lifting partner (one foot, spread eagle, etc), number of position changes, number of rotations (in a rotational lift). There are a variety of ways a team can achieve L4, so you'll see different positions/entrances/exits get L4.

 

[firstflight]

I have a technical question (avoiding to finally look at the protocols and learn all that GOE and dance elements terminology but I did for the CoC short dance results): to me, as an outsider who knows very little about the technical intricacies of FS, Chock/Bates lifts look very impressive and they've always been. But then, and as much as I love PC and their contribution to the aesthetics of FS, I would say that most of their lifts do not look as impressive, especially in last year's free dance. But they seem to always get level 4 for their lifts, whereas Chock/Bates do not always get level 4 for their lifts (or did they this time?Would sincerely appreciate how to figure out from the protocol which level they initially declared and which level they got as those ice dancing elements abbreviations are sometimes just mind-boggling), so why is this the case? Why PC get level 4 for their lifts when they do oftentimes appear as sophisticated even from an ex-dancer perspective? Does it have to do with how they've transitioned into the lift, i.e. how they started the lift and then how they've finished it?

Chock/Bates did get all L4 on lifts here. The abbreviation for lifts is “Li.” “St” is for step sequences, “Sp” for spins, and “Tw” for twizzle sequence.

 

[gkelly]

Dance rules are even more detailed than singles/pairs.

ISU Communication 2086 with dance rules. The lift section starts on p. 12.

Here's the Ice Dance Technical Panel Handbook. The lift section starts on p. 42.

 

[VGThuy]

The thing is that all teams tend to get level 4 lifts and spins and twizzles. It’s the more subjective step sequences where callers make a difference. In the SD it’s a bigger deal since there are less elements but there’s a pattern and a partial step and a SBS step.

 

[chapis]

I have a technical question (avoiding to finally look at the protocols and learn all that GOE and dance elements terminology but I did for the CoC short dance results): to me, as an outsider who knows very little about the technical intricacies of FS, Chock/Bates lifts look very impressive and they've always been. But then, and as much as I love PC and their contribution to the aesthetics of FS, I would say that most of their lifts do not look as impressive, especially in last year's free dance. But they seem to always get level 4 for their lifts, whereas Chock/Bates do not always get level 4 for their lifts (or did they this time?Would sincerely appreciate how to figure out from the protocol which level they initially declared and which level they got as those ice dancing elements abbreviations are sometimes just mind-boggling), so why is this the case? Why PC get level 4 for their lifts when they do oftentimes appear as sophisticated even from an ex-dancer perspective? Does it have to do with how they've transitioned into the lift, i.e. how they started the lift and then how they've finished it?

I have not review each lift but at least this lift https://youtu.be/XMx7qbei_PI?t=318 got lower score than this one https://youtu.be/Rols_pGdY2A?t=193. And I think the only reason is reputation.

 

[jiejie]

I have not review each lift but at least this lift https://youtu.be/XMx7qbei_PI?t=318 got lower score than this one https://youtu.be/Rols_pGdY2A?t=193. And I think the only reason is reputation.

I completely agree with you on this. Both lifts given Level 4, but IMO the C/B lift deserved at least as good, if not better, GOE than the P/C lift. Frankly, I thought the latter looked a bit clunky.

 

[firstflight]

I have not review each lift but at least this lift https://youtu.be/XMx7qbei_PI?t=318 got lower score than this one https://youtu.be/Rols_pGdY2A?t=193. And I think the only reason is reputation.

You don’t have to just think it— it’s clear as day, although I might reword “reputation” to “ranking.” Judges now have two ways to rank skaters- GOE’s and PCS. So if you are a judge and you think X team is better than Y team because of overall “better-ness”, you’re generally just going to go higher on GOE across the board for the better team.

It’s not of course how IJS was supposed to be — moving away from a holistic score for tech and artistry towards a grading of individual elements and individual performance categories. We’ve seen instead that all the PCS categories are within a narrow band for each skater/pair. It doesn’t matter what the judging system is; ultimately it always comes down to ranking because that’s what makes the most sense to the most people. We tend to go with the overall impression.

 

[DDNatalia]

And is it truly a "lift" if the girl is elevated all of 4 inches or so above the ice, stepping on her partner's boots and "striking a pose"?