The Dance Hall, Part 4: To Helsinki & Back -- Seeking Rhumba Magic ...

[cocotaffy]

It was actually the step sequences where Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson were hit the hardest. A level 1 in the free and two level 1's in the short. They did lose a couple levels on the twizzles in the free.

I wouldn't be too worried. It was a debut performance, and Montreal does seem to do a good job improving the footwork levels of their teams. Also I wouldn't be surprised if the calls are higher for F-B&S at the Autumn Classic this weekend even without any changes. The U.S. Classic was very tough on the footwork calls last season, and this was the same technical specialist.

Thanks, I hadn't watch the protocols tbh but they always seem to be kind of lowballed. In this case, being a challenger event, it's probably better to get tough calling early on so you can address those issues before GP. Generous calling never helped anyone but harsh ones might also be counterproductive. Oh well, let see I hope they'll have their best season yet. I'm not sold on their SD though. It's james bondy/60's but doesn't seem to fit the Latin style too much.

 

[aka_gerbil]

Controller was very tough. It does not help differentiate weak teams from teams who has a real potential because they all get level 1 in step sequences when stronger teams may be one step away from the next level and weak teams are not capable of doing the next level. Is there any way to train Controllers so that they are at least somewhat consistent?

The job of the tech panel is to call what happens on the ice that day in a particular performance. It's not at all about differentiating between who might be able to do what in the next event or later on in the season. Team A may have barely missed the next level, Team B may never be capable of it ever, but if Team A didn't deliver on a particular day, they didn't deliver and you can't (or shouldn't) bump up their score for that event because they could possibly do it in the future.

 

[Lara111]

The job of the tech panel is to call what happens on the ice that day in a particular performance. It's not at all about differentiating between who might be able to do what in the next event or later on in the season. Team A may have barely missed the next level, Team B may never be capable of it ever, but if Team A didn't deliver on a particular day, they didn't deliver and you can't (or shouldn't) bump up their score for that event because they could possibly do it in the future.

You are correct but there is no doubt that some Controllers are much more difficult then the others and US Classic tech panel was very tough and did not give levels where another panel would have given the level.

 

[Dobre]

You are correct but there is no doubt that some Controllers are much more difficult then the others and US Classic tech panel was very tough and did not give levels where another panel would have given the level.

Right. But these teams knew what they were signing up for. Most of them have been here before and came back for more. My guess is that they A. want the tough feedback now when they have time to respond to it before the GP and B. wanted to compete in the thinner field.

Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson have two more early-season Challengers so their U.S. Classic scores will only count toward their SB and World Standings Rankings if these are among the best results they have. (And Autumn Classic and Finlandia are stacked so 4th place will very likely be usable for F-B&S's world standings unless they sign up for some of the late season Challengers as well--which they might). The twizzles Sorenson missed in the SD were in the footwork so he would have lost a level(s?) in the footwork with any technical controller on that one. In fact, it might have been more damaging to the team if the controller had been a lenient one and handed out higher levels to all the teams who didn't have such obvious errors in the footwork.

Mostly, it's just important for us, as fans, to recognize that this event was called tightly. So we don't rush to conclusions by directly comparing the scores with results from events called less tightly.

 

[supergirl573]

Did y'all see the Chinese team that straight jacked Tessa and Scott's Latch? Warning: brutal fall on the rotational lift that they also stole.
http://m.youku.com/video/id_XMzAxNzQ4NzUwMA==.html?source=

 

[Dobre]

Nope, but I've seen three Fix You's this season, and I'm quite enjoying them.

 

[nimi]

Did y'all see the Chinese team that straight jacked Tessa and Scott's Latch? Warning: brutal fall on the rotational lift that they also stole.
http://m.youku.com/video/id_XMzAxNzQ4NzUwMA==.html?source=

 

[sap5]

Did y'all see the Chinese team that straight jacked Tessa and Scott's Latch? Warning: brutal fall on the rotational lift that they also stole.
http://m.youku.com/video/id_XMzAxNzQ4NzUwMA==.html?source=

I'm not surprised. That is very difficult choreography. Maybe they're copying it to learn how to do it? My concern is V/M use advanced techniques to be able to perform those elements, and if young skaters don't know those techniques, they could really hurt themselves.

 

[RoseRed]

I'm not surprised. That is very difficult choreography. Maybe they're copying it to learn how to do it? My concern is V/M use advanced techniques to be able to perform those elements, and if young skaters don't know those techniques, they could really hurt themselves.

But also the exact same costumes, which is weirder

 

[lauravvv]

Nope, but I've seen three Fix You's this season, and I'm quite enjoying them.

In this case, though, "straight jacked" means copied, not simply used the same music and (probably) borrowed just some moves/elements.

 

[forthewin]

At least they're not claiming they did the choreography themselves like the Russian team. I think they're straight out copying everything down to the costume so nobody doubts their intention. However I agree it's quite dangerous for young skaters to do advanced elements without proper training.

 

[Dobre]

Yes, I understood the implication. But these are low-level teams who clearly admire the team they copied. I don't really see the point in mocking them or being angry about it. I'm also quite certain that V&M themselves have at some point in their lives performed lifts invented by other teams. I don't applaud the idea of copying another team's performance. But seeing as the team isn't skating that program to that music right now, I don't think it is hurting anyone except the team suffering by comparison. If they were top level teams, then I would find it disturbing; but they are just trying to learn their craft. And the hip, hip, chin, chin choreography wasn't all invented by V&M's choreographer. It was a very widely viewed program on SYTYCD and in winning ballroom competitions first. Do I think the previous skating choreographer should have been given credit? Yes.

 

[forthewin]

P/C's breakout Mozart program has copied most of the choreography from the original ballet dance. And that leads them to world champion. Did they give credit to the original choreographer? No. And I don't see people make a big deal at that time. This young Chinese team is clearly admiring V/M and copy their program to save some money I guess. So no biggie really.

 

[MarieM]

P/C's breakout Mozart program has copied most of the choreography from the original ballet dance. And that leads them to world champion. Did they give credit to the original choreographer? No. And I don't see people make a big deal at that time.

WRONG. They did say who they took it from and even cited different dancers who did the ballet. Take another example, thanks.

 

[chapis]

My only complaint with the Chinese team is not having chosen a better program of V/M to copy.

 

[marbri]

 

[kittysk8ts]

My only complaint with the Chinese team is not having chosen a better program of V/M to copy.

It's a sublime program!!

 

[binbinwinwin]

My only complaint with the Chinese team is not having chosen a better program of V/M to copy.

Probably because ice dance rules change so much that copying any of their previous programs wouldn't fit under the current requirements.

The video seems to be from the Chinese National Grand Prix that happened earlier this month where all of the China's main teams debuted their programs. This team is in their 2nd season together was 3rd in senior ice dance so it seems like it's their actual program

 

[Scrufflet]

Holy .....! I thought you folks were exaggerating but this is outrageous.

 

[thvu]

P/C's breakout Mozart program has copied most of the choreography from the original ballet dance. And that leads them to world champion. Did they give credit to the original choreographer? No. And I don't see people make a big deal at that time. This young Chinese team is clearly admiring V/M and copy their program to save some money I guess. So no biggie really.

Did you even watch the original ballet? Clearly not. You’re so irrational and transparent.

A much better example would be the Duschenays’ Missing FD.

 

[forthewin]

I hope P/C fans can get their story straight. Some admit P/C copied the choreography of the ballet and give credit while some blatantly deny the origin of that Mozart program. People with eyes can see the shocking similarities of the choreography. I don't think denial works this time. And as long as they didn't put the original choreographer's name on their program info, I wouldn't call it truly giving credits.

 

[nimi]

This discussion started because of a Chinese team actually COPYING V/M's FD pretty much step by step and skating move by skating move, right?

And I presume everybody here knows enough about skating vs. dancing to know that dancing on the floor and dancing on ice are two pretty different mediums? That some of the mechanics involved are pretty damn different and dance steps don't directly translate into skating steps and edgework and vice versa? So even if you're very much inspired by a dance piece and use elements/moves of that as an inspiration for elements/moves in your ice dance program, it'll never be a step-by-step, move-by-move copy the same way the Chinese team's program copying another ice dance program was?

Yes, P/C's rotational lift at the end of the Mozart FD was clearly inspired by this lift in the ballet but at the same time, it's not exactly the same and the effect is different (because of the quite different entry, exit, duration and speed).... not to mention that their other lifts, their dance spin, their step sequences and the actual musical structure and choreographical construction of the FD are nowhere near identical with the original ballet choreo and what the dancers are actually doing. Should every team who uses inspiration from a ballet in the concept, costumes and choreo of their ice dance program put the ballet choreographer's name on the program (or does this only apply to P/C)? Should we then go ahead and demand that e.g. Marius Petipa's and maybe also Lev Ivanov's name should be on the program info of every balletic and "classical looking" ice dance version of Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake or Nutcracker in order to properly "give credit"?

 

[Miloune]

This discussion started because of a Chinese team actually COPYING V/M's FD pretty much step by step and skating move by skating move, right?

And I presume everybody here knows enough about skating vs. dancing to know that dancing on the floor and dancing on ice are two pretty different mediums? That some of the mechanics involved are pretty damn different and dance steps don't directly translate into skating steps and edgework and vice versa? So even if you're very much inspired by a dance piece and use elements/moves of that as an inspiration for elements/moves in your ice dance program, it'll never be a step-by-step, move-by-move copy the same way the Chinese team's program copying another ice dance program was?

Yes, P/C's rotational lift at the end of the Mozart FD was clearly inspired by this lift in the ballet but at the same time, it's not exactly the same and the effect is different (because of the quite different entry, exit, duration and speed).... not to mention that their other lifts, their dance spin, their step sequences and the actual musical structure and choreographical construction of the FD are nowhere near identical with the original ballet choreo and what the dancers are actually doing. Should every team who uses inspiration from a ballet in the concept, costumes and choreo of their ice dance program put the ballet choreographer's name on the program (or does this only apply to P/C)? Should we then go ahead and demand that e.g. Marius Petipa's and maybe also Lev Ivanov's name should be on the program info of every balletic and "classical looking" ice dance version of Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake or Nutcracker in order to properly "give credit"?

Well I think it's clear to everyone BUT the one, however you're the only one who had the will and patience to explain it to her.. so thanks!

 

[Nmsis]

I hope P/C fans can get their story straight. Some admit P/C copied the choreography of the ballet and give credit while some blatantly deny the origin of that Mozart program. People with eyes can see the shocking similarities of the choreography. I don't think denial works this time. And as long as they didn't put the original choreographer's name on their program info, I wouldn't call it truly giving credits.

Fanfiction much ?

Available internet articles mentionning Preljocaj or talking about the ballet Le Parc.

IceNetwork - November 2014 - P/C interview
L'express - January 2015
Dernières Nouvelles d'Alsace - January 2015
Inside Skating - January 2015
EuropeOnIce - January 2015 - Haguenauer interview recalling how he discovered Le Parc
Absolute Skating - February 2015 - P/C interview
LeMag2Lyon - May 2015
20 Minutes - December 2016
Several L'Equipe articles that were used by blogs and that L'Equipe doesn't keep available on its current webpages.

Those are either major french news outlets or well established figure skating websites.
Basically, every article about them that wasn't just a result talked about it because P/C and Haguenauer talked about it everywhere.

 

[MarieM]

Forthewin is the kind of fan that makes the skaters and their family run from the normal fans.

Thanks Nmsis, I didn't have the time to look for all those articles.
And BTW, Lyon had already suggested that program at least to another of its teams, but they didn't think it would suit them. I'm quite happy they refused because IMO they didn't have the depth P&C have.

Yes, P/C's rotational lift at the end of the Mozart FD was clearly inspired by this lift in the ballet but at the same time, it's not exactly the same and the effect is different (because of the quite different entry, exit, duration and speed)....

That lift in the original ballet is called "L'envol". It was the one thing they couldn't bring exactly to the ice, so the program lost a bit in that part that is so important in the ballet. Still, it didn't take from it.

 

[nimi]

So many articles... Thanks @Nmsis !

EuropeOnIce - January 2015 - Haguenauer interview recalling how he discovered Le Parc

I read this one and there's this bit about the performance coach they use(d)...

She makes them do some crazy exercises. For example, they skate, but do their programmes without music and instead they have to sing the music.

Where's the video?! And more importantly, audio?!?
C'mon Gaby & Guillaume, some fan service please!

 

[lauravvv]

I hope P/C fans can get their story straight. Some admit P/C copied the choreography of the ballet and give credit while some blatantly deny the origin of that Mozart program. People with eyes can see the shocking similarities of the choreography. I don't think denial works this time. And as long as they didn't put the original choreographer's name on their program info, I wouldn't call it truly giving credits.

How are the similarities "shocking"? First of all, it's not a complete copy, there are differences as well. Secondly, they are hardly the first ice dance team or skater to do something like that. As it was already said, some of Virtue/Moir's latin FD choreography was taken from the choreoraphy made for and performed on So You Think You Can Dance which was later repeated by many other dancers (including before Tessa and Scott). I am pretty sure that you were not "shocked" by that. And much earlier Cristopher Dean borrowed most of the choreography for his and Jane's 'Missing' exhibition which later became Duchesnays famous FD from a known dance performance on the floor. Were you shocked by that? Also, neither V/M and Zoueva or Dean officially gave credit to the original choreographers of those dance performances.

There are other examples like that - some that I simply don't have time to mention, others that I knew about, but don't remember at the moment, and others yet that I don't know about (I am sure of that). Of course, there is this "tradition" to borrow from various 'Carmen' ballet performances for 'Carmen' programs done on the ice. Etc. I think that most skating choreographers who choreograph programs on music used in ballets and other dance performances borrow from or are at least inspired by those ballets etc..

 

[MarieM]

I don't like Zueva, but she always says she gets her "ideas" from various russian ballets. So IMO, she does give some credits where it's due.
Dean on the other hand, never ever did that I'm aware of.

 

[cocotaffy]

I'm waiting for the day the ballet world will be inspired by an ice dance performance. I think P/C's last two FDs could fit in that category esp. last year's actually because of the music, particularly the Oddudua piece.

 

[icebergAshley]

I'm waiting for the day the ballet world will be inspired by an ice dance performance. I think P/C's last two FDs could fit in that category esp. last year's actually because the music particularly the Oddudua piece.

Yes. Books based on movies vs. movies based on books. Or movies based on movies...