ISU floats possible changes to judging system

[skatingguy]

If they want to balance the technical and artistic sides of figure skating then increase the multiplier for the PCS so that the potential scores are relatively equal. The sport has also tended to progress in one area or the other and then once the adjustment has been made the content of the programs tends to balance out. There was a huge increase in quads last year and probably in a year or two the artistic side will come to match.

 

[aftershocks]

There are a few men that can do it all (Hanyu, Javi, etc.)

The biggest calling card for Javi and Hanyu has been their gorgeous suspended-in-the-air quads when they are in the zone. They've had some great programs that they have grown into over the years for sure, and their quad expertise racked up so many points and rep during their tenure at the top, which allowed them the opportunity to remain at the top while improving some of their weaknesses. They are both compelling in many respects when they are on, which is largely due to their competitiveness under the coaching expertise of Brian Orser. And yet, IMHO, they have been consistently over-scored on PCS, effectively told for years they have nothing to work on in most PCS categories, which is not true. However, because it seems to be true based on scoring results that certainly provides them with a significant advantage in being practically unbeatable (unless they totally flop with more than two or three errors). Frankly it's the huge point values for quads that has separated them from the rest of the field.

The truth is that they each have some weaknesses artistically that are completely shrugged off. They are both okay in terms of presentation generally, but IMO, Javi has lacked range and neither Hanyu nor Javi are the greatest ever interpreters of music and choreography. They have both managed to find their niche and comfort zone however and to work sometimes brilliantly within what they are capable of doing. I think Javi has grown more in terms of interpretive ability, but again within a certain niche that works for him. Hanyu can stand to improve his stretch and posture. And fortunately for Hanyu, Orser helped him solve his nagging lack of endurance problem late in free programs. Neither Javi nor Hanyu possess the musical understanding and expressive movement qualities of Jason Brown, Adam Rippon and Jeremy Abbott -- even Nathan Chen has a better understanding of musical nuance than Javi and Hanyu, though Nathan still has room to grow in terms of maturity and refinement.

Both Javi and Hanyu have experienced consistent patches of inconsistencies, which have generally been excused by 'how hard it is to land boffo quads, so we should just give them a break.' They have certainly received a boat load of breaks on PCS points and tech points over the years. In addition, there's no doubt that both are extremely popular in the skating community and among fans, with powerful federations backing them up. (The one-two punch of Japan and Canada -- despite Javi coming from a smaller fed, he's clearly helped by his charming likeability and by training in Canada with the right coach who helped him improve all aspects of his skating).

I would have to include Patrick Chan, Denis Ten, Dai Takahashi, and Tatsuki Machida as being a notch above Hanyu and Javi when speaking of complete skaters who have won major medals (excepting for the beauty of Hanyu's and Javi's quads when they are in the zone and not popping or falling). Patrick, Denis, Hanyu and Javi have all suffered from competitive inconsistencies, but again it's been usually shrugged off as being due to having to focus on quads. Of the four, Denis took awhile to master quads and to improve his level, and in recent years he began to falter due to injuries, apparent lack of focus and other issues.

Despite Patrick Chan not having fully mastered more than two basic quads, he's better than everyone on the basis of his skating skills, and the purposeful intention he has shown in his focus on improving artistically. At his best, sans the current quad factor, Patrick has had flashes of being unbeatable. However, with the quad factor in the mix, it's become more difficult for Patrick to sustain dominance in his comeback. And sadly, post-2011, it was Patrick's over-rewarded inconsistencies that began the 'falls are okay as long as you make the 4 revolutions,' lame justification for over-rewarding certain skaters for revolving with botched landings.

The sport or the people running it don't seem to have a solid clue exactly where to land on the quad issue. It was okay apparently when Javi and Hanyu were leading the pack with flawed, consistently over-scored performances, mixed with sometimes brilliant performances. But with the new young guns rising and flashing an expanded repertoire of quads, somehow that has placed a spotlight on the problematic disparities of overdone point values for quads that in fact always existed since the changes were first instituted post-2010 Olympics.

 

[BittyBug]

There are some men - the top men - that can do good quads and everything else, but 3-5/20+ men who do this well in a competition is far too few.

Same as it ever was. Those who can excel at everything rise to the top, and those below are typically good at one thing but not all - they have jumps but not the skating or performance skills, they have the edges but not the jumps, or they have both but not consistency or the competitive mettle to hit it all at the same time.

 

[MAXSwagg]

The biggest calling card for Javi and Hanyu has been their gorgeous suspended-in-the-air quads when they are in the zone. They've had some great programs that they have grown into over the years for sure, and their quad expertise racked up so many points and rep during their tenure at the top, which allowed them the opportunity to remain at the top while improving some of their weaknesses. They are both compelling in many respects when they are on, which is largely due to their competitiveness under the coaching expertise of Brian Orser. And yet, IMHO, they have been consistently over-scored on PCS, effectively told for years they have nothing to work on in most PCS categories, which is not true. However, because it seems to be true based on scoring results that certainly provides them with a significant advantage in being practically unbeatable (unless they totally flop with more than two or three errors). Frankly it's the huge point values for quads that has separated them from the rest of the field.

The truth is that they each have some weaknesses artistically that are completely shrugged off. They are both okay in terms of presentation generally, but IMO, Javi has lacked range and neither Hanyu nor Javi are the greatest ever interpreters of music and choreography. They have both managed to find their niche and comfort zone however and to work sometimes brilliantly within what they are capable of doing. I think Javi has grown more in terms of interpretive ability, but again within a certain niche that works for him. Hanyu can stand to improve his stretch and posture. And fortunately for Hanyu, Orser helped him solve his nagging lack of endurance problem late in free programs. Neither Javi nor Hanyu possess the musical understanding and expressive movement qualities of Jason Brown, Adam Rippon and Jeremy Abbott -- even Nathan Chen has a better understanding of musical nuance than Javi and Hanyu, though Nathan still has room to grow in terms of maturity and refinement.

Both Javi and Hanyu have experienced consistent patches of inconsistencies, which have generally been excused by 'how hard it is to land boffo quads,' so just give them a break. They have certainly received a boat load of breaks on PCS points and tech points over the years. In addition, there's no doubt that both are extremely popular in the skating community and among fans, with powerful federations backing them up. (The one-two punch of Japan and Canada -- despite Javi coming from a smaller fed, he's clearly helped by his charming likeability and by training in Canada with the right coach who helped him improve all aspects of his skating).

I would have to include Patrick Chan, Denis Ten, Dai Takahashi, and Tatsuki Machida as being a notch above Hanyu and Javi when speaking of complete skaters who have won major medals (excepting for the beauty of Hanyu's and Javi's quads when they are in the zone and not popping or falling). Patrick, Denis, Hanyu and Javi have all suffered from competitive inconsistencies, but again it's been usually shrugged off as being due to having to focus on quads. Of the four, Denis took awhile to master quads and to improve his level, and in recent years he began to falter due to injuries, apparent lack of focus and other issues.

Despite Patrick Chan not having fully mastered more than two basic quads, he's better than everyone on the basis of his skating skills, and the purposeful intention he has shown in his focus on improving artistically. At his best, sans the current quad factor, Patrick has had flashes of being unbeatable. However, with the quad factor in the mix, it's become more difficult for Patrick to sustain dominance in his comeback. And sadly, post-2011, it was Patrick's over-rewarded inconsistencies that began the 'falls are okay as long as you make the 4 revolutions,' lame justification for over-rewarding certain skaters for revolving with botched landings.

The sport or the people running it don't seem to have a solid clue exactly where to land on the quad issue. It was okay apparently when Javi and Hanyu were leading the pack with flawed, consistently over-scored performances, mixed with sometimes brilliant performances. But with the new young guns rising and flashing an expanded repertoire of quads, somehow that has placed a spotlight on the problematic disparities of overdone point values for quads that in fact always existed since the changes were first instituted post-2010 Olympics.

LOL Hanyu does not get the support of JSF much.

Anyway, PCS doesn't need to be increase. It's that triple and quad base values need to be decreased. The step sequence base value also should be increase by one or two points. Fall penalties need to be increased too. I even wouldn't be opposed to having a fall make the element worth zero points.

As far as PCS, most everyone is over-scored based the descriptors of the component scores the ISU itself defines. They consider a 7.5 as "good". A program with falls should in reality be getting around 6s or 5s for some of the components...

 

[aftershocks]

LOL Hanyu does not get the support of JSF much.

Anyway, PCS doesn't need to be increase. It's that triple and quad base values need to be decreased. The step sequence base value also should be increase by one or two points. Fall penalties need to be increased too. I even wouldn't be opposed to having a fall make the element worth zero points.

As far as PCS, most everyone is over-scored based the descriptors of the component scores the ISU itself defines. They consider a 7.5 as "good". A program with falls should in reality be getting around 6s or 5s for some of the components...

Not sure how or why you think Japan federation doesn't support Hanyu. I personally haven't said that PCS 'need to be increased.' They just need to be accurately judged, and the categories better defined and understood. Base values for triples IMO do not need to be decreased, quad base values do for men.

I'm not sure that increasing fall penalties is the answer. The ISU mostly needs to rethink what kind of values are given for just making the rotations in the air with sloppy landings and falls. I think that the complexity of issues involved can not be solved on a dime. They need to first acknowledge what the problems and mistakes are, convene a number of people, including former skaters, coaches, officials and athlete representatives to confer and, without vested interests, try to come up with viable solutions that are tested and reviewed prior to being implemented. Some things, such as the need to slightly decrease quad values for the men are obvious and shouldn't require extensive testing.

Manipulation of PCS scores (based on politics and placement massaging) has been an ongoing issue for years. Someone earlier in this thread described best the various erroneous ways PCS scores are judged and applied. Some skaters are underscored on PCS while many are over-scored, especially among the top skaters with quads.

 

[Japanfan]

I would have to include Patrick Chan, Denis Ten, Dai Takahashi, and Tatsuki Machida as being a notch above Hanyu and Javi when speaking of complete skaters who have won major medals (excepting for the beauty of Hanyu's and Javi's quads when they are in the zone and not popping or falling). Patrick, Denis, Hanyu and Javi have all suffered from competitive inconsistencies, but again it's been usually shrugged off as being due to having to focus on quads. Of the four, Denis took awhile to master quads and to improve his level, and in recent years he began to falter due to injuries, apparent lack of focus and other issues.

I agree with this, and am reminded of how much I loved Machida. My favourite man by far this past quad! I've had a hard time finding another man to solidly root for since he retired. I stopped rooting for Chan after the 2014 when he gave away the OG after being handed it on a silver platter (pun intended). It was solidly within his grasp, then he went and made one more stupid mistake. Now I just expect three mistakes from Chan, and am pleased if he makes less (except at Canadians, where he always skates his best - probably because he really has no competition for gold).

There was Mishe Ge of course - I loved him too - but he is now gone as well.

 

[Marco]

What needs to happen is a combination of the following:

1. re-balancing the value of quads / difficult triples vs easier triples (being proposed)

2. expanding GOE range (being proposed)

3. better training and accountability for proper GOE and PCS judging

4. increasing the values of spins, footwork and choreo sequences to make TES less jump-centric. A level 4 steps sometimes take up a big chuck of a program's time but only a small % of TES. Likewise for spins.

5. re-balancing PCS factoring

6. considering BV factoring for combination and sequence jumps

7. limiting the use of certain GOE features for jumps (tanos, those annoying exit flourishes etc) - this is already in place for spin features

8. expanding the total number of available features to avoid cookie cutter elements between short programs and free skates and even between skaters

Decreasing BV for difficult jumps is discouraging. If one jumping pass takes less than 30 seconds, it means the ISU is just taking time away from men's choreography and spins.

 

[Kultakissu]

What needs to happen is a combination of the following:

1. re-balancing the value of quads / difficult triples vs easier triples (being proposed)

2. expanding GOE range (being proposed)

3. better training and accountability for proper GOE and PCS judging

4. increasing the values of spins, footwork and choreo sequences to make TES less jump-centric. A level 4 steps sometimes take up a big chuck of a program's time but only a small % of TES. Likewise for spins.

5. re-balancing PCS factoring

6. considering BV factoring for combination and sequence jumps

7. limiting the use of certain GOE features for jumps (tanos, those annoying exit flourishes etc) - this is already in place for spin features

8. expanding the total number of available features to avoid cookie cutter elements between short programs and free skates and even between skaters

Decreasing BV for difficult jumps is discouraging. If one jumping pass takes less than 30 seconds, it means the ISU is just taking time away from men's choreography and spins.

A resounding yes to all of these!

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Anyway, PCS doesn't need to be increase. It's that triple and quad base values need to be decreased. The step sequence base value also should be increase by one or two points. Fall penalties need to be increased too. I even wouldn't be opposed to having a fall make the element worth zero points.

As far as PCS, most everyone is over-scored based the descriptors of the component scores the ISU itself defines. They consider a 7.5 as "good". A program with falls should in reality be getting around 6s or 5s for some of the components...

Maybe with the new GOE ranges bigger scores for spins will be possible. One way or the other super-spiners should be able to get 8.5 points. People like Tim Dolensky or Alicia Czisney are(were) contributing something unique to the sport. The audience loves 5 minute headless scratch spins. Skaters say spins take as much energy as quads. But, with these huge jump numbers spins are practically being phased out. Like PCS, spin scores are so close among the top athletes they hardly matter.

 

[MAXSwagg]

And speaking of "how" PCS should be rewarded and what they should be reflective of, it's also interesting how many US fans have just dropped Jason Brown in favor of Nathan when it comes to "complete skating" and their newfound love of TES. I find that very funny and indicative of the hypocrisy of many of them. Lol To me, it shows that USFS will do anything to get to the top, while the Russian Fed is the one that gets the bad rap.

 

[Willin]

@MAXSwagg I wouldn't call it USFS "doing anything to get to the top" (the Russian federation definitely does that, as does non-skating US sports) as much as I'd call it USFS being absolutely desperate for a new star that will actually deliver medals at worlds and the Olympics.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

I find that very funny and indicative of the hypocrisy of many of them. Lol To me, it shows that USFS will do anything to get to the top, while the Russian Fed is the one that gets the bad rap.

Yeah, once we had own jumping beans we became less offended by the TES/PCS imbalance. I'm hoping some of these changes will give Jason motivation to stick around.

 

[gkelly]

USFS ≠ US fans. Some interests may align, but you can't blame (or praise) one group for the actions of the other.

And of course not only do not all US fans think or act alike, but not all USFS officials do either.

 

[MAXSwagg]

USFS ≠ US fans. Some interests may align, but you can't blame (or praise) one group for the actions of the other.

And of course not only do not all US fans think or act alike, but not all USFS officials do either.

But I never said or implied anything of these characterizations. Lol

 

[caseyedwards]

I would rather see a good triple than a bad quad. I don't want to see FS going in the same direction as gymnastics by becoming nothing more than a jumping contest in which poor execution is not properly penalised.

Men have already shown If there aren't rewards for bad quads they won't do quads at all. There is not enough time to train to do perfect quads. You will only get triples If men will get -5 on quads. You will barely see a quad again.

 

[el henry]

And speaking of "how" PCS should be rewarded and what they should be reflective of, it's also interesting how many US fans have just dropped Jason Brown in favor of Nathan when it comes to "complete skating" and their newfound love of TES. I find that very funny and indicative of the hypocrisy of many of them. Lol To me, it shows that USFS will do anything to get to the top, while the Russian Fed is the one that gets the bad rap.

Name me *one* Jason fan who has "dropped" Jason in favor of Nathan. To coin a phrase, LOL.

I'm not talking about the fed or a TV network promoting someone, I'm talking about *fans*. Whatever your argument is, there are certainly no *fans* dropping Jason. If anything, we are accused of sticking by someone whose time is gone, past, done, nada, never had it and never will. We are standing in the way of progress, progress, progress. Yup, that's us Jason fans

Many things we may be, but hypocritical???? Yeah, and Nathan doesn't have any quads....
The folks doing big time promo of other skaters never were and never will be "Jason fans".

 

[Frida80]

Name me *one* Jason fan who has "dropped" Jason in favor of Nathan. To coin a phrase, LOL.

I'm not talking about the fed or a TV network promoting someone, I'm talking about *fans*. Whatever your argument is, there are certainly no *fans* dropping Jason. If anything, we are accused of sticking by someone whose time is gone, past, done, nada, never had it and never will. We are standing in the way of progress, progress, progress. Yup, that's us Jason fans

Many things we may be, but hypocritical???? Yeah, and Nathan doesn't have any quads....
The folks doing big time promo of other skaters never were and never will be "Jason fans".

It's true. Jason fans never left him. Max fans, Adam fans, and Timothy fans etc are all still around. What happen is Nathan started to bring in new fans. I still love Jason much as ever.

 

[skatesindreams]

It is possible to love the skating; and admire the gifts of both Jason and Nathan!

 

[el henry]

It is possible to love the skating; and admire the gifts of both Jason and Nathan!

I realize the sentence of my post was poorly worded; I meant that those fans who jumped onto the Nathan bandwagon are not those who jumped *off* Jason's. It's certainly possible to ride both

I will admit that Nathan's charms have heretofore escaped me, but those little tiny SP clips look promising. I guess I will know more if we see some clips from SLC. Of course, I will be more interested in clips from Lombardia

 

[kwanatic]

Honestly, I think the TES and PCS should be given out by separate panels of judges. There should be a technical panel to evaluate the execution of each element and assign GOE, and a separate panel (the components panel) will accurately evaluate and score each of the components.

I get the issues with the technical side of things (lots of quads, backloading, etc.) but I'm more concerned with PCS. Those scores rarely if ever reflect what is actually performed on the ice. There are skaters with complicated steps and choreography that receive significantly lower scores than other skaters with better reputations. Yes, reputation has and will always play into scoring (even though it shouldn't), but it's not fair at all. What incentive is there for a skater to work hard at improving their choreography, adding transitions, etc. if they aren't going to be rewarded for it? It's a losing battle.

PCS are obviously used as placeholder scores and, as we saw in Sochi, can make a major difference in the overall placements of the skaters. They are easily manipulable which really speaks to the flaws of that part of the scoring system. I don't think it's possible for the judges to accurately score a routine within the confines of the 2 minutes or so they have after the program has ended. However, if you had a panel paying close attention to and evaluating the amount of time a skater spends on two feet, their ability to skate in two directions, how many transitions their using, the overall performance quality, the balance of the program, etc. the entire time the skater is on the ice, I feel like it would result in more accurate scores.

I doubt it it will ever happen but that's what I'd like to see.

 

[gkelly]

a separate panel (the components panel) will accurately evaluate and score each of the components.

How do we define "accuracy" when it comes to evaluating qualitative aspects of performance?

How should judges digitize these analog qualities? How can evaluators tell whether the judges have done so appropriately?

Is there room for honest disagreement?

 

[Aussie Willy]

Without reading all the comments, the only thing I would put money on is whatever changes they make or how they redevelop the system, you will never please everyone.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Men have already shown If there aren't rewards for bad quads they won't do quads at all. There is not enough time to train to do perfect quads. You will only get triples If men will get -5 on quads. You will barely see a quad again.

So be it. It is not fair to give the man with bad quads the same or more points than the man with the best technique. So if everyone has to be scrutinized more, oh well.

 

[nimi]

Reducing the BV of quad jumps doesn't sound too bad to me (unless they overdo it) but this...

The ISU proposal also calls for a 6 percent reduction in base value of the triple axel and double-digit percentage reductions in the base values of quad throws in pairs.

... is a big NOOOOOOO!

IMO, 3Lz and 3A are already a bit too close in BV, why would you want to devalue 3A even more?
And I agree with Chris Knierim re: pairs' quad throws.

 

[Japanfan]

[QUOTE-MAXSwagg] And speaking of "how" PCS should be rewarded and what they should be reflective of, it's also interesting how many US fans have just dropped Jason Brown in favor of Nathan when it comes to "complete skating" and their newfound love of TES. [/QUOTE]

I've never thought of Jason Brown as a complete skater - actually not heard him referred to as such. His strength is artistic, and he has distinguished himself as a artist (reminds me a bit of Shawn Sawyer in that regard).

 

[Marco]

I've never thought of Jason Brown as a complete skater - actually not heard him referred to as such. His strength is artistic, and he has distinguished himself as a artist (reminds me a bit of Shawn Sawyer in that regard).

I consider Jason as a complete skater. In the sense that nothing in his skating is lacking and everything is way above average. His jumps are right, his spins are great, everything else is wonderful. He is as close to a complete skater as you can get when disregarding the ability to land quads.

Nathan is less of a complete skater. In the sense that there are aspects of his skating that can be further improved. He however remains very, very competitive because he happens to excel at the one thing that is valued the most.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Jason for me is the complete skater. Everything he does is beautiful.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Jason for me is the complete skater. Everything he does is beautiful.

He lacks speed. But he skates with great edges, flow, aplomb, substantive transitions, has superior spins, and wonderful expression.

 

[ranran]

Funny people keep emphasizing beauty of their quads as the only thing that made Hanyu and Javi notable but point out that they are not complete skater enough compared to Jason Brown, Patrick Chan etc. who has so much artistically. Someone who barely has stable quad because it's not his forte is considered a more rounded skater compared to skaters who is excellent at the quality of their quad but good at the artistry is considered not. There seems to be a stereotyped sentiment that people who is excellent at artistry even with limited type and quality of jump is considered better and fought justice for while people who is talented at jumping but did improved their artistic level on higher level even though not on par with those who is excellent artistically is undermined and giving all type of excuse for the reason of their success. If sustaining dominance means maintaining at the same level of sport when he decided to go ahead of people then figure skating will forever be at Dick Button era.

Note that PCS also includes skating skills, flow, edge control etc. would you say Javi and Hanyu lacked in that department compared to Jason Brown? were they so bad that their scores should be below that? Is their footwork easy compared to Brown/Machida (I can't say for Patrick, he's too good XD) So I agree with some of the posters that PCS should be factored in more elements and increase the value to be on par with TES because that's the problem. Plus in TES has GOE and 1.1 factored in. all those imbalance the scoring compared with fixed limit score for PCS. Why pick on the skaters who is using the rules to their advantage? If the rules changed the skaters would changed their method of training as well, improving where it is demanded.

 

[Meoima]

Funny people keep emphasizing beauty of their quads as the only thing that made Hanyu and Javi notable but point out that they are not complete skater enough compared to Jason Brown, Patrick Chan etc. who has so much artistically. Someone who barely has stable quad because it's not his forte is considered a more rounded skater compared to skaters who is excellent at the quality of their quad but good at the artistry is considered not. There seems to be a stereotyped sentiment that people who is excellent at artistry even with limited type and quality of jump is considered better and fought justice for while people who is talented at jumping but did improved their artistic level on higher level even though not on par with those who is excellent artistically is undermined and giving all type of excuse for the reason of their success. If sustaining dominance means maintaining at the same level of sport when he decided to go ahead of people then figure skating will forever be at Dick Button era.

Note that PCS also includes skating skills, flow, edge control etc. would you say Javi and Hanyu lacked in that department compared to Jason Brown? were they so bad that their scores should be below that? Is their footwork easy compared to Brown/Machida (I can't say for Patrick, he's too good XD) So I agree with some of the posters that PCS should be factored in more elements and increase the value to be on par with TES because that's the problem. Plus in TES has GOE and 1.1 factored in. all those imbalance the scoring compared with fixed limit score for PCS. Why pick on the skaters who is using the rules to their advantage? If the rules changed the skaters would changed their method of training as well, improving where it is demanded.

I would say one thing for certain, Hanyu has the most packed transitions in his programs. There's an analysis of his transitions here in slow motion: https://youtu.be/_8_15XZ03-M
And I don't mention the quads. It's just annoying to see some people ditch his effort in showing blade to ice skills. He doesn't just have the quads. He has the speed, the transitions, the 1 foot skating, whole body movements.