U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

[skateboy]

Nathan has not given me any "five Toller" skates, nor has Vincent. Other skaters have, and yes, Jason is among those skaters. So is Josh, Adam, Deniss V. , Misha, and others....

Could you tell us what you consider a "Toller skate?"

Yes, I have watched plenty of Cranston's programs. He was a great skater, undoubtedly.

I am genuinely interested to know your personal opinion as to exactly what it is about Toller's skating that you revere. For me, he had a powerful and balletic style with sometimes unusual choreography, and hit beautiful positions. (John Curry was a similar skater, IMO.)

Is that what you are looking for, when deeming a skater artistic (or not)?

 

[wickedwitch]

I don't mind the SPs for Vincent and especially Nathan, but if they're spending a quarter of the program setting up for jumps and ignoring the music, as they do in their LPs, then it becomes unenjoyable. I'm not the biggest Hanyu fan, but at least his quads generally aren't preceded by long set ups.

 

[Tahuu]

OK, I'll say it: I don't see where Nathan has artistry. His SP last year was a huge improvement over the year before, but when the bar is low, there's nowhere to go but up. His skating skills may be great, I can't tell, but that's not artistry.

OK, you have said it a thousand times. But why do you keep worry about Nathan? Your horsey daisy couldn’t even lick Nathan from behind with an overextended tongue nowadays. With Vincent and Max's stabilized quads and Adam regaining his 4Lz, a Jason with a lady’s layout will not cut it. Wait, do I miss his planned 2-quad short and 2-quad long? But do you remember that infamous statement “with a 4T and 4S, who can beat that?” from Cori ages ago. You better face it: Falling on the quads, he may lose to Adam; not doing the quads, he will lose to Max. What a dilemma. I think it will be alright without your horsey on the Olympic team you sure could go watch stray cat fights at your street corner.

 

[olympic]

I think a better description on my part would have been that Vincent has 'cemented' his position as an Olympic prospect with those skates at Detroit, and that Jason/Adam have less wiggle room. I have to say @Dobre that the only way up for Jason/Adam is a quad. Where else in their programs are they going to wring more points?

 

[Spiralgraph]

I certainly agree that Jason and Adam have less wiggle room than Vincent and Nathan do. They know who they're up against for those Olympic spots. But I agree with wickedwitch too. Nathan's artistry er ballet training is obscured by having all those quads. It's hard to see anything else in that program except jump set up, jump spin and jump... Although I realize he's still a teenager and won't have the maturity of Patrick Chan or Jason Brown, to me he looked slightly awkward even accepting thunderous applause from an audience last season.

If Adam can see daily what Nathan can do jumpwise, Nathan can learn a lot from Adam's command of a program and how to perform with artistry and flair.

 

[el henry]

Could you tell us what you consider a "Toller skate?"

Yes, I have watched plenty of Cranston's programs. He was a great skater, undoubtedly.

I am genuinely interested to know your personal opinion as to exactly what it is about Toller's skating that you revere. For me, he had a powerful and balletic style with sometimes unusual choreography, and hit beautiful positions. (John Curry was a similar skater, IMO.)

Is that what you are looking for, when deeming a skater artistic (or not)?

Thank you for asking, and I hope I can answer.

And I talk about Toller only because I do know what it is to like uber someone beyond rationality. I *hated* John Curry with the passion of a thousand burning suns. Not what folks might normally admit to, but I will own up to it. Because when Toller was finally being accepted by the judging community, when he might have a chance of winning something, along comes that blasted Curry and steals his thunder. And when I criticize skaters today, whether it's right or whether it's wrong, it's not from the same place where I ignored Curry's greatness because of my love of Toller. And I get cranky when it's assumed it's from that place. Well, crankier.

And my answer will be totally unsatisfying, because it's subjective. That connection to the audience, that desire to please, that love of skating that radiates outward to those watching; that ultimately is the final arbiter of what makes a five Toller skate. I hesitate to use this analogy, because you know so much more about this field than I do, but a 13 year old could play the Emperor Concerto. Dynamic markings: perfect. Not one dropped note. Up to tempo. A remarkable achievement. And he would have nothing to say about the Emperor Concerto that I want to hear. A skater could perfectly replicate Toller's Pagliacci, with fingers outstretched to the exact millimeter that Toller's were, and with quads besides; but is he "speaking" like Toller? Do I want to "hear" him?

There are other qualities: a step I haven't seen before, new, different, and unique spins (Deniss V. has stolen my heart there), a gorgeous man spiral, Russian splits higher and wider than any before (I'm a Toller uber, if your Russian splits are "Toller quality", you got me, babe), etc.

I certainly don't expect everyone, or even anyone, to agree with my subjective opinions. I just don't want them dismissed for the wrong reasons

And man was this post way tooo long; sorry

 

[skatesindreams]

el henry, I appreciate your feelings, and perspective.
Your post wasn't too long at all!

 

[shine]

I certainly agree that Jason and Adam have less wiggle room than Vincent and Nathan do. They know who they're up against for those Olympic spots. But I agree with wickedwitch too. Nathan's artistry er ballet training is obscured by having all those quads. It's hard to see anything else in that program except jump set up, jump spin and jump... Although I realize he's still a teenager and won't have the maturity of Patrick Chan or Jason Brown, to me he looked slightly awkward even accepting thunderous applause from an audience last season.

If Adam can see daily what Nathan can do jumpwise, Nathan can learn a lot from Adam's command of a program and how to perform with artistry and flair.

TBH he doesn't need to learn it from Adam. One thing I appreciate a lot about Nathan is that he is his own skater and he is not trying to skate like anyone. He can improve his presentation for sure, but he already has everything it takes to be a great performer and artist as seen in his show programs as well as programs before the 2015-2016 season. When he doesn't have to worry about landing quads, his performance quality and snowmanship really shine through, and to me he already has a great sense of style that's unique and beyond his age. For example, the Chopin FS he did in the 2014-2015 season demonstrated a sensibility and understanding of music that I think is rare in skating. It's just matter of combining everything he can do artistically and technically into the same program, and I think that will come with time as he develops more technical security and becomes a better skater in general.

 

[Pretty Vegas]

I loooove Nathan's Chopin program. I would love something in that vein for this year. I did see that Shae was working with him this week so I'll be interested to see what they came up with.

This is already a crazy season and it hasn't even started yet.

 

[olympic]

I certainly agree that Jason and Adam have less wiggle room than Vincent and Nathan do. They know who they're up against for those Olympic spots. But I agree with wickedwitch too. Nathan's artistry er ballet training is obscured by having all those quads. It's hard to see anything else in that program except jump set up, jump spin and jump... Although I realize he's still a teenager and won't have the maturity of Patrick Chan or Jason Brown, to me he looked slightly awkward even accepting thunderous applause from an audience last season.

If Adam can see daily what Nathan can do jumpwise, Nathan can learn a lot from Adam's command of a program and how to perform with artistry and flair.

Maybe Nathan <-> Adam can learn from one another

 

[Jayar]

Why athletes push the envelope in skating, there is something that gives. When someone does 5 quads for the first time, they have to learn how to accomplish that feat, and then they can start thinking about what can be added. Sure, other programs are more aesthetically pleasing, but the scoring potential just isn't as high.

 

[VGThuy]

In this quantified system, the best bet to score high that a skater can actually almost control fully is with jumps and spins. Steps hopefully will be judged level 4 but this more discretion with the callers to see if all of your steps and turns are done cleanly. PCS and GOE are just too subjective for skaters to only bank on. Of course, it is in their best interest to improve their PCS (adding difficult transitions, skating with more power and speed, paying attention to presenting the program, improving choreography, interpretation, etc.), but jumps are just more of a sure bet.

 

[misskarne]

Look. IMO, if a 16 yr old lands a 4Z and 4F in a SP and a LP at a Summer comp., I think I'm only going to be looking at the positives.

Great, except he didn't. There's no way that 4F is all the way around. It's < at the very least. I can't tell the 4Lz from the distance/angle of the fancam but I'd like to see that, too.

Not that the tech panel at US Nationals will call it, however...

 

[Dobre]

I have to say @Dobre that the only way up for Jason/Adam is a quad. Where else in their programs are they going to wring more points?

Jason & Adam have known this for years. Well before Nathan & Vincent moved up. And both have been working on rotating the quad for years. Adam longer than Jason, but both since at least 2015 4CCs. Do we think that now that more quads are being landed by the competition that Jason & Adam will suddenly now magically acquire this skill?

I'm happy if they do, but trying more and landing more are two different things. As most of the men's field at Worlds can attest to.

 

[olympic]

Jason & Adam have known this for years. Well before Nathan & Vincent moved up. And both have been working on rotating the quad for years. Adam longer than Jason, but both since at least 2015 4CCs. Do we think that now that more quads are being landed by the competition that Jason & Adam will suddenly now magically acquire this skill?

I'm happy if they do, but trying more and landing more are two different things. As most of the men's field at Worlds can attest to.

I respect what you say. But where do you think they will finish if they go quadless and Vincent / Nathan hit 5 and 6 quads respectively. It will be fascinating

 

[aftershocks]

Look, all respect due to Vincent Zhou. He was thrilling at Junior Worlds because politically he was not being favored to win. He went out there grit and all and he could not be denied, as others faltered one-by-one.

Still, it's not a contradiction nor dislike of Vincent and his humongous talent to say that he struggled through the Skate Detroit free program. In fact, he did. Obviously, it wasn't a horribly bad struggle during the off-season. But it was a struggle on more than one level. I agree with observations I've seen elsewhere about the music in the fp eating up and overwhelming him.

Vincent's 'Chasing Cars' sp works so much better, but I think there's a problem with the fp music and the way the program is set up. If in fact it's true that Vincent and his team considered several music selections but had already set up a skeleton program, and then just decided to pick one of the music selections to go with the program that had been laid out, I'm skeptical of that process. This Romeo & Juliet music demands more soulful involvement & interpretation, which Vincent is not able to give to it, either because of the focus on multiple quads, or because he's not yet fully tuned into the music, or the music is a bit overwhelming for him at this stage of his maturity. Whatever it is, IMO, it is not working. Last season, when Vincent's team realized his sp was not working, they fixed the problem by scrapping it and getting a new one to The Writing's On the Wall. And that worked out much better for Vincent, even despite Jason Brown already having a sp to the same music.

Same for AdaRipp last season. When he realized he was not getting the points he needed nor positive reviews for his initial fp, he listened to people he trusted around him, and to his own heart, and possibly to words of support from well-meaning fans, and he went for the program he had really wanted in the first place. His choice to adapt Flight of the Birds /'O' number which was formerly an exhibition, into a fp was a brilliant masterstroke. It worked beautifully, and Adam is bringing it back for the Olympics season. A great decision!

In regard to Vincent and quad bonanza, let's see how the season unfolds. Vincent at this stage is a bit less mature than Nathan. Plus this will be Vincent's first full year as an international/national senior, and his second year as a national senior. It will be Nathan's second year as a full international/ national senior, and his third year as a national senior. Bottom line, no matter how many quads Vincent performs and how well executed, newbies to seniors do not always get what they are looking for from the judges. Shoma was not given as much credit as he may have deserved his first year as an international senior, and then he was a bit overcredited last season. Everything is in the process of being shaken up largely as a result of Nathan responding to the Writing on the Wall, by Writing His Own Multiple Quad Record History. We have no idea where things are headed, but we can continue to speculate.

I still say that Nathan has more talent up his sleeve than meets the eye, and he's capable of a great deal. Whether or not we will get to see his evolution progress beyond the jumps is something else yet again. This sport tends to keep us guessing. It's always been frustrating and political as hell. I yearningly hold out for unexpected magic, and I take whatever I can get in the way of extraordinary amidst various and sundry delights, mixed with mundane business as usual.

 

[aftershocks]

Love the music switch for the end, this is not the R&J soundtrack, but still Craig Armstrong though (forgot the piece);
this part I like way better and better connection to the music there.

Good observation. I hope Vincent's team will listen to these critiques and rework something for that fp. Maybe ditch the R&J soundtrack portion and expand on the latter music section that Vincent responds to better. Also, take it down to 3 quads in fp please and have Vincent work on his areas of weakness, please!

I'm not saying this because I prefer seeing Jason and Adam make the Olympics team. Is every friggin' thing in figure skating merely about the Olympics FGS! Vincent Zhou is sixteen. He didn't even expect to be on the podium at Nationals last January. Is he now trying to make the Olympic podium or is it just the GPF and the World & Olympic team at age sixteen? I can see wanting to make it to the big time for the experience factor, but Vincent still has plenty of time. I know, that's easy to say. But please Team Vincent, 'steady as he goes.' And I do realize there will be some broken hearts at Nationals next year. We've got an amazing jumping phenom with extraordinary budding artistic ability in Nathan. Hopefully, Nathan will have a good and steadily building fall campaign. Hopefully Jason and Adam can combine quads with artistry.

For Vincent in his first senior international season, everything is gravy. He doesn't need to gobble it all up too fast. International judges are not going to be over-generous to Vincent at this stage IMO, particularly not with the current fp as it stands. Adam and Jason should both score much higher than Vincent in PCS, and we shall see how the TES plays out.

 

[mollymgr]

What does age have anything to do with it? If he can land the quads and rack the points where he needs consistently, he has a good chance of doing well this season. That goes for any skater looking to be successful this season. There is no such thing as plenty of time for any athlete. Sometimes, injuries can cut a career really short, plague it or end it altogether. It is easy to forget that figure skating is a sport.

 

[Tahuu]

And yes, I'm such a bitter, deluded, blind uber of other skaters that I just don't see that wonderful expression and performance skills that are right in front of me, and hey, I have Nathan's sixth grade ballet teacher telling me he's da bomb, so who am I to dispute it?

OK, your constant dismiss of Nathan earns you more karma. First, there is no 6th grade ballet teacher, but I'll cut you some slack as you, the artistic master, hasn't attended ballet class for a day in your life. Mind you: According to that Hersh article on Ice Network, the 6th grade ballet teacher you sneezed at multiple times was Atlanta Ballet and Southern Ballet Theatre principal dancer, aka, a "professor" rank in ballet if you haven't known. Second, Nathan had formal ballet training from 4-12 and according to Mr. Mills Nathan continued to train in ballet with his wife for 7 yrs after Nathan moved to California. I think Nathan's artistic training is more than that of your horsey daisy artist who had the audacity to tell people that he forgot to wear his underwear onto warm up ice. I can give you more bad karma as you continues.

 

[skateboy]

Thank you for asking, and I hope I can answer.

Yes, you did. Thank you.

For those who claim that Nathan's free last year was nothing more than jump-stroke-stroke-jump, I put together a video of his LP from US Nationals, omitting all jumps and and spins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_rD_c0WCQ

One can like or dislike Nathan's artistry, but I see a whole lot more than jump-stroke-stroke-jump here.

 

[jlai]

I think Nathan can be artistic but his most artistic programs happened when he had no major progress in jumps. Remember when he was 11 to 14, 15 and relied on mainly 3/3s? He had the best artistry then.
He now seems intent to focus on out jumping others in his LP; therefore I don't expect him to be artistic at all in the lps. But he can still perform well in the short as there are only three jump passes

 

[AxelAnnie]

Can't blame Nathan. Blame COP. imo his musicality is great.....but you cannot have all those quads and much more artistry.

 

[misskarne]

One can like or dislike Nathan's artistry, but I see a whole lot more than jump-stroke-stroke-jump here.

Do you see 91 PCS? Because I sure as hell don't.

Can't blame Nathan. Blame COP. imo his musicality is great.....but you cannot have all those quads and much more artistry.

Really? That's exactly what everyone was demanding of Max, why does Chen get a free pass?

 

[VGThuy]

Yes, you did. Thank you.

For those who claim that Nathan's free last year was nothing more than jump-stroke-stroke-jump, I put together a video of his LP from US Nationals, omitting all jumps and and spins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_rD_c0WCQ

One can like or dislike Nathan's artistry, but I see a whole lot more than jump-stroke-stroke-jump here.

Thanks for this. One can argue that there's actually more going on in Chen's Nationals LP than Shoma's LP.

Do you see 91 PCS? Because I sure as hell don't.



Really? That's exactly what everyone was demanding of Max, why does Chen get a free pass?

Except Chen isn't getting a free pass. He has skills and content. Sure he's not at Yuzuru's level yet and needs to continue to work and improve to be even better and more of a complete skater, but he showcases a lot of skill with his non-jumping/non-spinning content. I won't go into why he gets higher PCS than Max.

 

[jlai]

Transitions is one of five pcs components and choreography and interpretation are again two more components. Even if both suck at all three of these, Nathan still has better skating skills.

Anyway fans have complained about Nathan's pcs. And Max's pcs is inflated as well, except than his fans don't mind that.

If Max comes up with a program that suits him well he can beat Nathan at pcs at nationals. Experimenting time is over for Max. Olympic year is when everyone sticks to what they do well.

 

[aftershocks]

What does age have anything to do with it? If he can land the quads and rack the points where he needs consistently, he has a good chance of doing well this season. That goes for any skater looking to be successful this season. There is no such thing as plenty of time for any athlete. Sometimes, injuries can cut a career really short, plague it or end it altogether. It is easy to forget that figure skating is a sport.

Ummm, age has to do with maturing and growing in physical strength and in emotional understanding and perception. You might want to talk to various athletes in different sports about the process of growing up and how that impacts the stages of their athletic careers. Quads are definitely point-getters, but how judges reward newbie senior quadsters on PCS does factor into the equation. Jin coming onto the scene with multiple quads and rare quad-lutz/triple (despite lacking maturity, skating skills and performance ability) changed things somewhat. Nathan who has more artistic chops than Jin, saw the 'writing on the wall,' and essentially said, 'You want quads, you want quad-lutz/triple? I got 'em and then some.' And Nathan's history-making quad feats has further shaken things up in the men's discipline.

It's definitely true that we don't know how much time any of us have. So, it's understandable for young, talented athletes to always want to do their best at all times. There's nothing wrong with that. However, I'm sure the wisest coaches understand that it's not a slam dunk managing the top-level careers of very young athletes who still have a lot to learn about themselves, about applying and honing their abilities, as well as about life in general. Everyone is individual as well and progresses at varying levels that are not strictly related to how old they are. And yet, the sport of figure skating IMHO, does not need to rush to exclusively OTT anoint all precocious teenagers too precipitously. Not that TPTB in the sport haven't done so in a number of instances. And yet, as I said earlier, Shoma Uno was not heavily rewarded in his debut senior international season with his countryman, Hanyu, at the top. Of course Shoma has been significantly rewarded during his second season among senior ranks. Nam Nguyen was a bit over-rewarded as a quadster to a degree in his first senior season in the absence of Patrick Chan, but that changed when Patrick returned to the senior scene. As I said, this will be a gravy season for Vincent. He was pleasantly surprised and gained confidence from making the podium at Nationals in the silver medal position. That's a good thing.

It will be interesting to see in an Olympic year whether USFS is going to now go wildly gung ho for quads without accurately assessing well-rounded expressiveness and musical interpretation. As I said earlier, Nathan is a bit more advanced in terms of artistic maturity than Vincent. I'm sure USFS is very happy though to have two young multiple quadsters with varying levels of budding artistic chops. In addition to two veteran skaters with solid competitive consistency and above average performance abilities in Jason and Adam (neither of whom will be holding back on trying to weaponize quads, within reason -- and they have both landed quads even though mastering them with facility is ongoing). Of course, the U.S. men do not lack for talent with the likes of Joshua, Max, Grant, Ross, Tim, Alexander, Andrew, Alexei, Sean, et al.

 

[Bellanca]

What does age have anything to do with it? If he can land the quads and rack the points where he needs consistently, he has a good chance of doing well this season. That goes for any skater looking to be successful this season. There is no such thing as plenty of time for any athlete. Sometimes, injuries can cut a career really short, plague it or end it altogether. It is easy to forget that figure skating is a sport.

Great post! You nailed it right on the head.

Some skaters are fortunate enough to experience success immediately (when they're just getting started) while others, later in their careers. One never knows when or if success will come one's way, but must seize the opportunity when it presents itself.

Very true, that many athletes do not have the luxury of time, but a sense of urgency - in most cases. I don't subscribe to the 'wait your turn' or the next quad mentality.

Compete in the moment because it can slip away before you know it.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Sure @Weve3, but your sentiments are mainly addressing the aspect of doing all you can to succeed no matter your age when opportunities present themselves. And I do not disagree with that outlook and aspiration, which in part factored into how Jason Brown and Polina Edmunds unexpectedly made the 2014 U.S. Olympics Team. As I said, such ambitious desire and valiant striving is to be expected and there's nothing wrong with that. If you have everything you need and all that it takes, no matter how old you are, more power to you.

What you aren't addressing is the complicated factors involved with quads being heavily rewarded in the scoring, with PCS being manipulated and rather widely fluctuating in individual scoring, with the fact that all quadsters do not have equal abilities in every measurable aspect, that granted are often inequitably measured anyways. Which leads us to the fact that politics can trump everything, that reputation and luck always weigh in, and that ice is always slippery.

But yeah, carry on with the 'sense of urgency' meme. It is the Olympics season after all.

 

[Bellanca]

^^ Sure @Weve3, but your sentiments are mainly addressing the aspect of doing all you can to succeed no matter your age when opportunities present themselves. And I do not disagree with that outlook and aspiration. As I said, such ambitious desire and valiant striving is to be expected and there's nothing wrong with that. If you have everything and all that it takes, no matter how old you are, more power to you.

What you aren't addressing is the complicated factors involved with quads being heavily rewarded in the scoring, with PCS being manipulated and rather widely fluctuating in individual scoring, with the fact that all quadsters do not have equal abilities in every measurable aspect, that granted are often inequitably measured anyways. Which leads us to the fact that politics can trump everything, that reputation and luck always weigh in, and that ice is always slippery.

But yeah, carry on with the 'sense of urgency' meme. It is the Olympics season after all.

Ah, c'mon, @aftershocks, I just logged in!

 

[aftershocks]

Ah, c'mon, @aftershocks, I just logged in!

It gonna be a long season @Weve3, my friend. Of course, it will also go by in a flash, so maybe let's take a deep breath and exhale s-l-o-w-l-y, which might even add some quality years to our lives (in which maybe to enjoy more figure skating).