Who is the better skater (all things considered): Evgeny Plushenko, Alexei Yagudin or Yuzuru Hanyu?

[blue_idealist]

This question was inspired by the fact that I just watched Plushenko's 2006 Olympic SP and LP and thought he was not quite as strong as Hanyu in 2018 in the LP. I threw Alexei Yagudin in as a third choice since he's a well-respected OGM winner too.

 

[bardtoob]

Yuzuru because he made everything look so effortless in comparison to Yag and Plushy.

 

[savchenkoboss]

It is difficult to compare eras. IMO though Hanyu > Yagudin > Plushenko

 

[muffinplus]

Hanyu, and I don't even like his skating that much

 

[SmallFairy]

Apples and oranges. Hanyu is so fluid, he's floating out there, Yags was a powerhouse, Plushenko was maybe something in between?

I won't go into technique details and start crazy discussions (I guess they'll come anyway though), but overall to me Yagudin's passion trumps everything and I have to go with him. (I've seen both him and Plushy live several times, but not Hanyu).

To quote the late Ziggy, who will always be with us here - it was about Yagudin's Winter, but could be said of most of his programs: He skated it like there was no tomorrow!

 

[lala]

I vote to Hanyu. Hanyu>Plushenko>Yagudin. Hanyu grew up in the new system, he is better spinner, better skating skills, etc. He has one fault he skates almost similar type of programs, he is not too diverse.
You could read my arguments ( if you remember) not once why Plushenko is better than Yagudin. I have seen Plushenko many times live , I have seen him on ice for hours(not only on show but on the practices of shows ! those are almost better!) with Lambiel, Weir, Joubert, Verner, Amodio etc. He was the best.
Unfortunately, I didn't see Yagudin live .

 

[savchenkoboss]

If we take into account eras though I still believe Yagudin in 2002 skated the best ever winning Olympic performances. He was the only one who really went out and nailed his absolute best in both programs. Plushenko in 2006 came close but his long was a bit lukewarm for his standards. Hanyu in 2018 was even further away, amazing short, but just pretty good long with some major miscues.

 

[Aussie Willy]

If you are looking at pure skating quality, Hanyu by far. Yagudin and Plushenko were great skaters, but Hanyu's basic skating technique, flow, fluidity of skating and body movement and quality of jumps is superior to the others. For me it is not about results but aesthetics.

 

[snoopy]

Yeah, Hanyu no contest. But I grant of the 3, Yagudin had the best Olympic performance.

 

[Fiero425]

Yeah, Hanyu no contest. But I grant of the 3, Yagudin had the best Olympic performance.

I was never a fan of Yagudin, but he obviously had Plushenko's number when it counted! I leaned toward the underdog and Evgeny finally won over his closest rival in 2001, but injury took away some of that luster! It looked as if EP would continue rolling, but it was not to be! He faltered at the end of the Olympic season skating some bizarre Cirque du Solei music and fell out of his big combo at the beginning of the program! He didn't even skate Europeans, then showed up doing Carmen at the OG's in SLC! I was looking forward to their long rivalry, but AY's hips just gave out with all that jumping and he WD from the 1st event of the GP season in 2002; probably right here in Chicago for Skate America! EP thrived without a rival and only had a handful of bad performances; one of them being his OG performance in Vancouver! The previous OG in Torino was preordained and Evgeny breezed GOLD! He was close to winning in 2010 as well, but his landings weren't as solid as they could have been! It was a startling surprise to have him come back one more time in 2014 to help the Russian Team win OG! He finally limped away & didn't compete in the "SINGLES" event! End RANT!

 

[Japanfan]

If you are looking at pure skating quality, Hanyu by far. Yagudin and Plushenko were great skaters, but Hanyu's basic skating technique, flow, fluidity of skating and body movement and quality of jumps is superior to the others. For me it is not about results but aesthetics.

I prefer both Yagudin's and Plushenko's jumps, because they are more powerful IMO. Hanyu's jumps have that 'floating quality' which distinguishes him, but I don't find them exciting or explosive.

To me Hanyu is machine-like. I can see that he cares about the performance and emotional dimensions of his skating, but he just bores me for the most part. Usually my mind wanders away when I watch him.

When it comes to Japanese male skaters, I far prefer Takeshi Honda, Takahashi and Machida to Hanyu.

 

[lauravvv]

I have seen Plushenko many times live , I have seen him on ice for hours(not only on show but on the practices of shows ! those are almost better!) with Lambiel, Weir, Joubert, Verner, Amodio etc. He was the best.
Unfortunately, I didn't see Yagudin live .

Plushenko has his trademark fast steps that he has been using even too often, whether the music requires it or not (in my opinion). I imagine they look even more impressive live. But there are different kind of steps and qualities in figure skating, one foot skating, multidirectional skating, easy flow etc. that are also signs of great skating skills. If a skater can't do steps like Plushenko which are all about "quick" feet and learning those steps early on, it does not mean that they have weaker skating skills than him, for perhaps that skater can do other things that he can't do.

As for Plushenko and the other skaters you mentioned, I believe he probably was the fastest among them when you saw them live. But, the same as his steps, speed in itself is not the only quality that tells about skating skills. It's also how that speed is achieved and what (other) things the skater does while skating. If a skater is doing more difficult things/steps in his program, of course he won't be as fast as the skater who is doing less steps or simpler steps etc.. Saying all that, while I believe Plushenko is at least as good or even a better skater than Joubert, Weir and Amodio (Weir was never a really great skater to begin with, but he has been skating in shows less and less, so it's only natural that his skating skills have become weaker over this time), I don't believe he is really better than Lambiel and Verner. Faster - yes, perhaps. But, as I said, that's not all that there is in skating.

 

[LarrySK8]

Hanyu has developed better than either Yags or Plushenko as an overall skater. Performance quality is another matter.

If we take into account eras though I still believe Yagudin in 2002 skated the best ever winning Olympic performances. He was the only one who really went out and nailed his absolute best in both programs. Plushenko in 2006 came close but his long was a bit lukewarm for his standards. Hanyu in 2018 was even further away, amazing short, but just pretty good long with some major miscues.

Don't forget 1988. Boitano skated his greatest programs at that competition, on Orser's turf, and when he needed to skate at a level far beyond what he did previously, he nailed it - under enormous pressure, and he won. He surpassed even his own expectations that night. Yags skated his best in 2002, Boitano skated beyond his absolute previous best efforts. I think 1988 was the best -ever OGM performance by Boitano.

 

[lala]

Plushenko has his trademark fast steps that he has been using even too often, whether the music requires it or not (in my opinion). I imagine they look even more impressive live. But there are different kind of steps and qualities in figure skating, one foot skating, multidirectional skating, easy flow etc. that are also signs of great skating skills. If a skater can't do steps like Plushenko which are all about "quick" feet and learning those steps early on, it does not mean that they have weaker skating skills than him, for perhaps that skater can do other things that he can't do.

As for Plushenko and the other skaters you mentioned, I believe he probably was the fastest among them when you saw them live. But, the same as his steps, speed in itself is not the only quality that tells about skating skills. It's also how that speed is achieved and what (other) things the skater does while skating. If a skater is doing more difficult things/steps in his program, of course he won't be as fast as the skater who is doing less steps or simpler steps etc.. Saying all that, while I believe Plushenko is at least as good or even a better skater than Joubert, Weir and Amodio (Weir was never a really great skater to begin with, but he has been skating in shows less and less, so it's only natural that his skating skills have become weaker over this time), I don't believe he is really better than Lambiel and Verner. Faster - yes, perhaps. But, as I said, that's not all that there is in skating.

I understand what you said and I agree with you in partly. They are totally different skaters with different type of moves and steps, etc. What I have seen Plushenko came out to the ice at the latest every time ( like a diva ) the others were on ice and practiced. Next to the ice everybody became more vivid and excited the photoreporters, jounalists, and some lucky fans as me. If he is on the ice you want to see him, probably because of his undoubted charisma...He was fast, confident, he turned so fast, he did everything so easily and elegantly! He was in good mood, and funny! He is much more impressive live than on the TV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAsfKt_RV9k one of the famous 4 kings ( probably you know it ) I have seen this in some variations.

Plush can skate other type of steps if he wants but that is not his style, he likes to skate in own style... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KY5zVZwQhI - Evgeni Plushenko - Amazing (Footloose) -
it's really amazing...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVU51Mu1Ogs&t=1m30s awesome footwork in Sochi SP

if he wants , another style https://www.instagram.com/p/BVrFr_dltg8/?taken-by=angelsofplushenko and
https://www.instagram.com/p/BUBduGZF02r/?taken-by=angelsofplushenko
or this fantastic video https://www.instagram.com/p/BHSP9tUBiWg/?taken-by=yokotanpe -if he wanted to skate on this way he will be more artistry for some Fs fans who think he is not!..On his IG next to this original video some posters mentioned Cranston..


@Fiero425
Evgeni won in every Rus Nat and in 2000 ECH, and GPF 99/00 and 00/01 seasons. In 2002 he missed the ECH because they created the new Carmen program to the OG, as you said the judges didn't like the Cirque du soleil program. Yagudin was there the judges gave him the gold but Abt was robbed if you remember..
Plush didn't skate in Sochi in the individual event because one of his screws was broken in his spine.... You was the second who wrote he had no real opponent..hmmm he competed against Lambiel, Buttle, Joubert, Takahashi, Honda, Lysacek, Verner, Weir , Sandhu, Weiss, after Yag's retirement..and beat them..

@blue_idealist I could have said this results before you started the thread..You don't forget this is a north-american site... One of my favorite posters on other forum said: for him look like they skated in different era....Yes, their last competition was in 2002, Plushy was only 19 and he competed in 2014. He competed in new system and could win..


I brought some videos when they are together on ice on some shows..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdDddEkUxqc 2008 superstars on ice. both of them are great!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoB_oaYOzys - 2001 ARD Gala Opening - Butirskaya, Plushenko & Yagudin so exciting how they watched each other....
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm5p0RKjdHt/?taken-by=chikachika118 Plush and Yuzu (there are more)

 

[BittyBug]

Hanyu>Plushenko>Yagudin

All are /were amazing skaters but to me the ease of Hanyu's skating tops Plushy and Yagudin. And Plushenko edges out Yagudin for me due to his longevity and incredible consistency.

Weir was never a really great skater to begin with....

Dick Button and many others would disagree with you, LOL. Your hatred of Weir cannot deny that he was one of the most naturally gifted figure skaters.

 

[LarrySK8]

Dick Button and many others would disagree with you, LOL. Your hatred of Weir cannot deny that he was one of the most naturally gifted figure skaters.

I would have to strongly agree. Given that Weir did not even start skating until age 11 (eleven!) and was World Junior champion only 5 years later says volumes about his natural ability. After skating only 7 years, he was US National Champion. The rest we know, and anyone who says he wasn't/isn't a great skater has a) Probably never skated, b) Probably never competed at any elite level sport, c) Probably doesn't know their a$$ from their elbow and d) only looks at the visual aspects of skating, a shallow way to view skating.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Dick Button and many others would disagree with you, LOL. Your hatred of Weir cannot deny that he was one of the most naturally gifted figure skaters.

Gifted does not mean he became great though. Peoples definition of great is subjective, but someone like Jeremy Abbot was also extremely gifted, and many would not rate him a great skater given his lack of success, and Abbott arguably had a more successful career than Weir.

 

[Japanfan]

Gifted does not mean he became great though. Peoples definition of great is subjective, but someone like Jeremy Abbot was also extremely gifted, and many would not rate him a great skater given his lack of success, and Abbott arguably had a more successful career than Weir.

Yes, 'great' is open to interpretation, although in general it denotes 'special' and 'talented'.

I always thought of Johnny's skating as "organic" in terms of movement - which reflects how naturally he took to the sport despite starting at a relatively late age.

But I don't recall ever thinking of him in general or any program in particular as 'great' - although I always enjoyed watching him skate and was rather fond of his 'Dr. Zhivago'.

 

[lauravvv]

Dick Button and many others would disagree with you, LOL. Your hatred of Weir cannot deny that he was one of the most naturally gifted figure skaters.

I would have to strongly agree. Given that Weir did not even start skating until age 11 (eleven!) and was World Junior champion only 5 years later says volumes about his natural ability. After skating only 7 years, he was US National Champion. The rest we know, and anyone who says he wasn't/isn't a great skater has a) Probably never skated, b) Probably never competed at any elite level sport, c) Probably doesn't know their a$$ from their elbow and d) only looks at the visual aspects of skating, a shallow way to view skating.

Wow, no need to be so harsh and start throwing such offenses at me just because of one sentence where I did not even say that Weir is a bad skater or that I dislike (let alone hate) him. I actually like him and many of his programs, as well as his bold and daring performance style a lot. What I meant was only that he doesn't have very great skating skills in comparison to some of the widely acknowledged greats in this area. Of course, his skating skills are very good (otherwise he would not have reached the level he reached), but not great - in my opinion. I know that what I wrote probably came across as too harsh, simply because it was so short without any further explanations as to what I meant, but I did not mean him as a skater overall, his technique, musicality, artistry, programs etc. at all.

Returning to the skating skills, it's actually very difficult to compare Weir to Plushenko. But, from what I have seen, which is quite a lot, although only on TV and video (I have seen Plushenko live only once, and he was not in his best form then), Plushenko at least has his speed, while Weir is not that fast (despite having good flow) and also doesn't seem to be as great at different kinds of steps as some others (including Verner and Lambiel). Of course, he did the steps that were required by IJS, and he did them well, he just didn't have (to my eyes) the kind of ease in them as some of the great skaters (in terms of skating skills). Feel free to prove me wrong with video examples (with explanations, as I don't claim myself an expert in skating skills), though. I always like a good discussion. But perhaps it would be better to do this through private messages, not on this thread.

Sorry to other posters here for this off-topic.

 

[bardtoob]

Johnny Weir 2006 Olympic SP
https://youtu.be/d3frkW4f7ok

... Hmmm Johnny rotates opposite, but his jumps do not look strange like the jumps of most opposite rotators.

 

[Rina RUS]

Hanyu, and I don't even like his skating that much

LOL. What can be better than things we don't like!

 

[LarrySK8]

In terms of performance quality - Plushenko is really the best, isn't he? He has star quality and command over the audience that surpasses Yags and Hanyu, IMHO.

 

[Fiero425]

In terms of performance quality - Plushenko is really the best, isn't he? He has star quality and command over the audience that surpasses Yags and Hanyu, IMHO.

Plushenko's the "Entertainer;" ala Fred Astaire! I have to give credit to both Alexei and Yuzuru; Yags with more power and Yuzuru more grace! They both would beat Evgeny (who's all style & jumping) H2H unless an injury was involved like 2000-01 season! Alexei's lone win over EP that season had more to do with skating skills and interpretation of music at the Japan Open where AY won easily performing "Gladiator!" Doing only 3 or 4 jumps alone wasn't going to set Evgeny apart from anyone with Alexei's skill and experience! I flew home from Europe in anticipation of Evgeny winning Worlds that year! I could have flown in on my way back to California and seen it live, but I'm one to watch it in the comfort of my home so I can edit videotape as I record the performances to VHS format! It was well worth it cutting my trip short to watch it "live" on TV!

 

[Rina RUS]

In terms of performance quality - Plushenko is really the best, isn't he? He has star quality and command over the audience that surpasses Yags and Hanyu, IMHO.

As for Yagudin, he had running ovations: people couldn't stand, they ran to the ice
Seas would rise when he gave the word
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBWZP5SIORc&t=5m20s

He skated it like there was no tomorrow!

Yes. Yagudin is used to skate all out


P.S. And he doesn't need a foam costume He has beautiful strong arms and he is inventive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34YV4udyR-M&t=1m58s

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

He has beautiful strong arms and he is inventive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34YV4udyR-M&t=1m58s

You say inventive,I say provocative and alluring. Wow.

-BB

 

[lala]

For me Plushenko has more beautiful and balletic arms and especially hands! His style is balletic in general. But we will see his balletic skills again and more intensively this year. In his new Swan Lake show he will dance on floor not just skate.

BTW Yuzuru's new FS is the Origin, his idol Plushenko's Nijinsky's arragement.

 

[Japanfan]

It's important to remember that Yagudin was a bit ahead of Plush. He competed in his first Worlds in 97, Plush in 98. That one year made a difference.

If Plush had been the one to be a year ahead, the rivalry might have played out a bit differently.

Plush was sort of put in the position of the bratty younger brother fighting for attention, which he clearly demonstrated when he completely reorganized the jump layout of his folk dance FD, with Mishin wailing at him from the boards. That remains one of the funniest moments I've witnessed in FS.

I loved that folk dance, and also loved Plush's 'Carmen' at the 2002 Olympics. I don't think there has been a Carmen since then that I've actually enjoyed, although there certainly have been far too many of them.

 

[aftershocks]

For me it is not about results but aesthetics.

And that's why if we are only comparing these three skaters, I choose Alexei Yagudin. For me, Yagudin is/was the best of these three at focusing with emotional intensity on fully developing artistry and expressiveness in his skating. And Yagudin was also a very pure, consistent, and superb technician. With Tatiana Tarasova's help, Yagudin worked hard at trying to become a complete skater. His performances at 2002 Olympics were masterful, both technically and aesthetically.

For me, Hanyu is primarily an extraordinarily gifted technician. Of course, Hanyu moves fluidly and mesmerizingly, but he is also rather gumby-like or loosey-goosey, and he does not exhibit nor has he yet fully developed an aesthetically satisfying body awareness, in terms of line and stretch. Hanyu admittedly has patterned his skating after his idol and muse, Johnny Weir. When he first came on the senior scene, Hanyu did seem to move with a graceful fluidity that was reminiscent of Johnny's movement quality. However, for me, Hanyu never quite pulled me in all the way. I became distracted by his loosey-goosey physicality, his lack of stretch and line, and his tendency early in his career to lose endurance in his fps and make errors. Going to Orser was a tremendous help to Hanyu, as Orser managed to find a way to help Hanyu pace himself and solve his lack of endurance problems (possibly related to his asthma).

There's no question that Hanyu is a passionate and determined competitor with a fierce drive to win. He also has very good skating skills, but that's what makes his lack of line and stretch fairly annoying, at least for me. Still, Hanyu is fun to watch when he's in the zone, and his jumping ability is amazing. I would have to agree though that sometimes there's somewhat of a mechanical quality in the way he performs. He has artistic abilities, but he moves in and out of complete concentration on the expressive aspects of his skating. And Hanyu is not a particularly musical skater, in terms of having a superior ability to interpret music in a way that pulls an audience into the weaving of a story. I think audiences are more pulled into Hanyu's other-worldly elf-like persona, and his amazing jumping ability (the suspended quality of his jumps).

Plushenko is Plushenko, and he will likely go down in the history of the sport in a class by himself. No one's passion, determination, and strength of will is greater than Plushenko's, IMHO. As far as artistry, Plush had a lot of capability, but he tended to rely more on charisma, rather than on fully exploring aesthetics. His main focus was upping the technical ante, and utilizing his athleticism and charm, rather than challenging himself with mastering difficult transitions. Plush did not have great stretch or line either, but conversely he did have a catlike, balletic grace.

 

[Fiero425]

It's important to remember that Yagudin was a bit ahead of Plush. He competed in his first Worlds in 97, Plush in 98. That one year made a difference.

If Plush had been the one to be a year ahead, the rivalry might have played out a bit differently.

Plush was sort of put in the position of the bratty younger brother fighting for attention, which he clearly demonstrated when he completely reorganized the jump layout of his folk dance FD, with Mishin wailing at him from the boards. That remains one of the funniest moments I've witnessed in FS.

I loved that folk dance, and also loved Plush's 'Carmen' at the 2002 Olympics. I don't think there has been a Carmen since then that I've actually enjoyed, although there certainly have been far too many of them.

Alexei had the advantage of having a more superior and centered coach, Tatiana T.! Mishon was too tyrannical!

 

[Japanfan]

Alexei had the advantage of having a more superior and centered coach, Tatiana T.! Mishon was too tyrannical!

It's Mishin, not Mishon.