Top 10 skaters of all time per discipline

[ohashibiles]

Who do you consider the top 10 of all time per the 4 skating disciplines. Here are mine.

Ice dance

1. Virtue & Moir
------gap--------
2. Klimova & Ponomarenko
3. Torvill & Dean
4. Davis & White
5. Papadakis & Cizeron
6. Gritschuk & Platov
7. Pakhomova & Gorshkov
8. Anissina & Peizerat
9. Usova & Zhulin
10. Krylova & Ovsiannikov

Honorable mentions- Bestiamanova & Bukin, Navka & Kostomarov, Moiseeva & Minenkov, Delobel & Schoenfelder

Pairs

1. Gordeeva & Grinkov
2. Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze
3. Protoppopovs
4. Rodnina & Zaitsev
5. Shen & Zhao
6. Miskutienok & Dmitriev
7. Underhill & Martini
8. Valova & Vasiliev
9. Volosozhar & Trankov
10. Totmianina & Marinin

Honorable mentions- Savchenko & Szolkowy, Pang & Tong, Sui & Hong, Brasseur & Eisler

Ladies

1. Mao Asada
2. Katarina Witt
3. Yu Na Kim
4. Sonja Henie
5. Herma Plack Szabo
6. Midori Ito
7. Janet Lynn
8. Dorothy Hamill
9. Kristi Yamaguchi
10. Peggy Fleming

Honorable mentions- Irina Slutskaya, Michelle Kwan, Evgenia Medvedeva (could easily be top 10 soon, especialy if she wins OGM), Carol Heiss

Men

1. John Curry
2. Robin Cousins
3. Dick Button
4. Alexei Yagudin
5. Evgeny Plushenko
6. Yuzuru Hanyu (if he wins 2nd OGM could climb to #1)
7. Kurt Browning
8. Toller Cranston
9. Gilles Grafstrom
10. Karl Schafer

Honorable mentions- Brian Boitano, Brian Orser, Ulrich Salchow, Javier Fernandez, Scott Hamilton, Stephane Lambiel, Daisuke Takahashi, Patrick Chan

 

[ohashibiles]

The reason I included some relatively undecorated skaters like Ito, Lynn, Cranston, Underhill & Martini, and Delobel & Schoenfelder in high positions is their impact on the sport outweighs their achievements.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Bourne and Kraatz should make the top 10 for ice dancing. Belbin & Agosto too. For the simple reason both were huge trailblazers for North American dance, and it was much harder to do what the did than what the NA teams today are doing.

 

[gk_891]

Bourne and Kraatz should make the top 10 for ice dancing. Belbin & Agosto too. For the simple reason both were huge trailblazers for North American dance, and it was much harder to do what the did than what the NA teams today are doing.

I would rank Wilson & McCall ahead of B&K in terms of Canadian ice dancers. Unlike B&K, W&M could actually handle good content. I would also rank Blumberg & Seibert ahead of Belgin & Agosto.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I would rank Wilson & McCall ahead of B&K in terms of Canadian ice dancers. Unlike B&K, W&M could actually handle good content. I would also rank Blumberg & Seibert ahead of Belgin & Agosto.

Belbin & Agosto have a considerably better career than Blumberg & Seibert though.

 

[attyfan]

Boitano and Hamilton get honorable mentions and Dick Button does not? IMO, he is one of the men's greats.

 

[skatingguy]

Boitano and Hamilton get honorable mentions and Dick Button does not? IMO, he is one of the men's greats.

He's #3 on the list.

 

[Simone411]

Let's see now. Here's a few of my favorite past Ice Dance Couples.

Elizabeth Punsalan and Jerod Swallow (and I just added their Compulsory Dances, Free Dance and Original Dance from the 1998 Olympics to my Ice Gallery page.)

Renee Roca and Gorsha Sur
Sinead and John Kerr
Shae Lynn Bourne and Victor Kraatz
Tanith Belbin and Ben Agosto

 

[ohashibiles]

He's #3 on the list.

#3 to whom? That is where I put him on mine too (corrected now, that was a total brain cramp, I would never purposely exclude Dick).

 

[lala]

What were your points? Is Mao first, Katarina 2nd, Yuna 3rd???

 

[ohashibiles]

What were your points? Is Mao first, Katarina 2nd, Yuna 3rd???

My thinking is this. Mao and Yu Na were in the same era, the most competitive womens era ever, and Mao outdid Kim, won more Grand Prix finals, more Worlds, more Four Continents, set more World Records, the only place Yu Na did better is the Olympics and only since Mao had to miss 2006. So Mao deserves 1st more than Yu Na. Plus she is just a better skater, Yu Na can only win when Mao makes a ton of mistakes like her Olympic win.

Witt has the best competitive record by far of modern day skaters since competition has become atleast decent.

Henie has by far the best record ever, but at a time the sport was not that competitive.

 

[lala]

My thinking is this. Mao and Yu Na were in the same era, the most competitive womens era ever, and Mao outdid Kim, won more Grand Prix finals, more Worlds, more Four Continents, set more World Records, the only place Yu Na did better is the Olympics and only since Mao had to miss 2006. So Mao deserves 1st more than Yu Na. Plus she is just a better skater, Yu Na can only win when Mao makes a ton of mistakes like her Olympic win.

Witt has the best competitive record by far of modern day skaters since competition has become atleast decent.

Henie has by far the best record ever, but at a time the sport was not that competitive.

I like Mao more as Yuna but I disagree with your explanation.

4. Rodnina/ Zaitsev? Really?
2. Klimova & Ponomarenko but the two time Oly champions Gritschuk & Platov only 6th?

Your lists are very questionable..

 

[shady82]

Your lists are very questionable..

Quite frankly, the entire list is hilarious

 

[ohashibiles]

I like Mao more as Yuna but I disagree with your explanation.

4. Rodnina/ Zaitsev? Really?
2. Klimova & Ponomarenko but the two time Oly champions Gritschuk & Platov only 6th?

Your lists are very questionable..

Are you thinking Rodnina & Zaitsev are too low or too high. Since I dont even know which you are thinking. As some would have them 1st, and others would probably have them as low as 8th or 9th. It depends what you value as they have the most titles of any team ever, but they were mostly a technical only team who lacked the artistry of other great pairs.

Klimova & Ponomarenko have an Olympic medal of every color which no other team in history has, and also the only team with 3 Oly medals, which could be considered on par with 2 golds. They have 8 world gold or silver medals which is a lot more than G&P have, have 1 less world title but 1 more European title; and they are generally higher regarded by fans and experts than Gritschuk & Platov who had a lot of controversy (atleast to the media and many fans) around their dominance and some of their wins it felt. K&P also many believe should have been on top the whole 85-92 period so I took that into account. G&P first Olympic win in 94 especialy was really controversial to a lot of people, even if they were the clear leaders of 95-98. I think K&P winning in 88 would have been more agreed upon than G&P winning in 94 was. K&P competition with a politically favored Bestiamanova & Bukin, Usova & Zhulin, Blumberg & Seibert, politically propped up Duchensays, and Wilson & McCall was also light years ahead of Gritshuk & Platov who only had Krylova & Ovsiannikov as a somewhat worthy challenger the entire 95-98 period (Anissina & Peizerat were nowhere near their primes this period).

 

[lala]

Are you thinking Rodnina & Zaitsev are too low or too high. Since I dont even know which you are thinking. As some would have them 1st, and others would probably have them as low as 8th or 9th. It depends what you value as they have the most titles of any team ever, but they were mostly a technical only team who lacked the artistry of other great pairs.

Klimova & Ponomarenko have an Olympic medal of every color which no other team in history has, and also the only team with 3 Oly medals, which could be considered on par with 2 golds. They have 8 world gold or silver medals which is a lot more than G&P have, have 1 less world title but 1 more European title; and they are generally higher regarded by fans and experts than Gritschuk & Platov who had a lot of controversy (atleast to the media and many fans) around their dominance and some of their wins it felt. K&P also many believe should have been on top the whole 85-92 period so I took that into account. G&P first Olympic win in 94 especialy was really controversial to a lot of people, even if they were the clear leaders of 95-98. I think K&P winning in 88 would have been more agreed upon than G&P winning in 94 was. K&P competition with a politically favored Bestiamanova & Bukin, Usova & Zhulin, Blumberg & Seibert, politically propped up Duchensays, and Wilson & McCall was also light years ahead of Gritshuk & Platov who only had Krylova & Ovsiannikov as a somewhat worthy challenger the entire 95-98 period (Anissina & Peizerat were nowhere near their primes this period).

4th Rodnina/ Zaitsev--it's too low

I would have more questions...but the most important for me.. After your answer I will draw my conclusion about your lists...
4th Yagudin
5th Plushenko

What are your points?

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Pairs

1. Berezhnaya & Sikhardlidze
2. Gordeeva & Grinkov
3. Miskutienok & Dmitriev
4. Protopopovs
5. Shen & Zhao
6. Volosozhar & Trankov
7. Totmianina & Marinin
8. Wagner & Paul
9. Valova & Vasiliev
10. Rodnina & Zaitsev

Men

1. Plushenko
2. Yagudin
3. Curry
4. Cranston
5. Hanyu
6. Browning
7. Chan
8. Cousins
9. Hamilton
10. Boitano

Dance

1. Virtue & Moir
2. Torvill & Dean
3. Klimova & Ponomarenko
4. Davis & White
5. Gritchuk & Platov
6. Anissina & Peizerat
7. Papadakis & Cizeron
8. Navka & Kostomarov
9. Blumberg & Seibert
10. Belbin & Agosto + Delobel & Schoenfelder (tie)

Ladies

1. Evgenia Medvedeva
2. Yu Na Kim
3. Mao Asada
4. Kristi Yamaguchi
5. Dorothy Hamill
6. Janet Lynn
7. Midori Ito
8. Sonja Henjie
9. Irina Slutskaya
10. Michelle Kwan + Peggy Fleming (tied)

 

[ohashibiles]

4th Rodnina/ Zaitsev--it's too low

I would have more questions...but the most important for me.. After your answer I will draw my conclusion about your lists...
4th Yagudin
5th Plushenko

What are your points?

Yagudin has more World titles than Plushenko despite a career that was less than half as long. And the even 1 more combined World-Olympic individual gold. Plushenko does have an extra individual Olympic medal plus the Team gold, but all in all, given that his career was over twice as long, not exactly an impressive comparision for Plushenko. Yagudin also won most of their head to head meetings, particularly in biggest events. He is also generally regarded the more complete, artistic, and quality skater. I know you are a Plushenko fan so wont agree, which is fine, make your own list if you dont like mine, that is what I am asking you to do.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Pairs

1. Berezhnaya & Sikhardlidze
2. Gordeeva & Grinkov
3. Miskutienok & Dmitriev
4. Protopopovs
5. Shen & Zhao
6. Volosozhar & Trankov
7. Totmianina & Marinin
8. Wagner & Paul
9. Valova & Vasiliev
10. Rodnina & Zaitsev

Men

1. Plushenko
2. Yagudin
3. Curry
4. Cranston
5. Hanyu
6. Browning
7. Chan
8. Cousins
9. Hamilton
10. Boitano

Dance

1. Virtue & Moir
2. Torvill & Dean
3. Klimova & Ponomarenko
4. Davis & White
5. Gritchuk & Platov
6. Anissina & Peizerat
7. Papadakis & Cizeron
8. Navka & Kostomarov
9. Blumberg & Seibert
10. Belbin & Agosto + Delobel & Schoenfelder (tie)

Ladies

1. Evgenia Medvedeva
2. Yu Na Kim
3. Mao Asada
4. Kristi Yamaguchi
5. Dorothy Hamill
6. Janet Lynn
7. Midori Ito
8. Sonja Henjie
9. Irina Slutskaya
10. Michelle Kwan + Peggy Fleming (tied)

This is the most accurate list. Except I would include Savchenko/Szolkowy and change some of the orders in the disciplines.

 

[lala]

Yagudin has more World titles than Plushenko despite a career that was less than half as long. And the even 1 more combined World-Olympic individual gold. Plushenko does have an extra individual Olympic medal plus the Team gold, but all in all, given that his career was over twice as long, not exactly an impressive comparision for Plushenko. Yagudin also won most of their head to head meetings, particularly in biggest events. He is also generally regarded the more complete, artistic, and quality skater. I know you are a Plushenko fan so wont agree, which is fine, make your own list if you dont like mine, that is what I am asking you to do.

I had problem not only with Yag/ Plush as you noticed. Your lists are very questionable.
Your aspects were:
-who has more titles in total,
-who has more OG golds
-who has more OG medals
-who was more artistry in your opinion
-who was better skater in your opinion
-whose victory was questionable by many people,by FS fans
-who had bigger influence on FS but there were not so many titles
-the two Oly golds is not decisive factor, because the era wasn't competitive than later...
-who has more WCH tiles
-who has more other medals
etc.

I can't see any clear aspects you changed if you want to put your favorites on great places. This is my biggest problem.

Check Plushenko's Wikipedia. You made some mistakes. And I'm saying again Yagudin had to face the very young Plushenko. When Yagudin finished his career and their battle was over Plushenko was younger as Boyang, Uno, Nam Nguyen, or Samarin, and barely older than Vasilyevs or Aliev...

 

[butyrskafanatic]

This is the most accurate list. Except I would include Savchenko/Szolkowy and change some of the orders in the disciplines.

Yeah come to think of it S&S should probably be top 10. Their not even getting silver at the Olympics though (not just not gold) hurts them though IMO. Plus everytime they faced strong competition they really struggled, first when Shen & Zhao came back and before they left, and then when Volosozhar & Trankov came into their own. They didnt even totally dominate their rivalry with Pang & Tong. They dominated facing teams like the Zhangs which IMHO isnt that impressive. I dont dispute they are a great pair, but not the best competitors, and mostly were dominant only when having no worthy rivals or threats. Still 5 world titles are a super impressive feat. And they are quite impressive in their combined ability to do big tricks with creative choreography. Their biggest weakness is inconsistency, at times lack of confidence, and of course inability to peak for the Olympics.

 

[giselle23]

The reason I included some relatively undecorated skaters like Ito, Lynn, Cranston, Underhill & Martini, and Delobel & Schoenfelder in high positions is their impact on the sport outweighs their achievements.

Janet Lynn has an Olympic medal, two World medals and five US championship gold medals. So I wouldn't call her relatively undecorated. I think your lists should be called My 10 Favorite Skaters.

 

[gk_891]

Belbin & Agosto have a considerably better career than Blumberg & Seibert though.

Very true. But in terms of 'paving the way', I think B&S probably deserve to be mentioned when it comes to U.S teams. They competed not only against the unbeatable T&D but also some notable Soviet teams and did very respectably well (and arguably should've done better).

 

[gk_891]

Are you thinking Rodnina & Zaitsev are too low or too high. Since I dont even know which you are thinking. As some would have them 1st, and others would probably have them as low as 8th or 9th. It depends what you value as they have the most titles of any team ever, but they were mostly a technical only team who lacked the artistry of other great pairs.

Klimova & Ponomarenko have an Olympic medal of every color which no other team in history has, and also the only team with 3 Oly medals, which could be considered on par with 2 golds. They have 8 world gold or silver medals which is a lot more than G&P have, have 1 less world title but 1 more European title; and they are generally higher regarded by fans and experts than Gritschuk & Platov who had a lot of controversy (atleast to the media and many fans) around their dominance and some of their wins it felt. K&P also many believe should have been on top the whole 85-92 period so I took that into account. G&P first Olympic win in 94 especialy was really controversial to a lot of people, even if they were the clear leaders of 95-98. I think K&P winning in 88 would have been more agreed upon than G&P winning in 94 was. K&P competition with a politically favored Bestiamanova & Bukin, Usova & Zhulin, Blumberg & Seibert, politically propped up Duchensays, and Wilson & McCall was also light years ahead of Gritshuk & Platov who only had Krylova & Ovsiannikov as a somewhat worthy challenger the entire 95-98 period (Anissina & Peizerat were nowhere near their primes this period).

I know many will disagree but I honestly don't think K&O were all that close to G&P. I actually think A&P were worthier challengers to G&P than K&O were even if A&P had still a ways to go in terms of their own development at that time (and thus they too weren't all that close to G&P in that respect). Comparing K&O to A&P, K&O skated very aggressive programs with a lot of speed and power but A&P skated closer together and I usually found that their programs had more ambitious content, especially in 1996 and 1998. I admit that A&P didn't have the best material in 1997 though.

But I do agree that K&P probably had more stiff competition than G&P. The thing about K&P's rivalry with B&B was that B&B had some awesome compulsories. And so if B&B were to win the compulsory rounds at Europeans or Worlds, the standings would almost become set in stone so to speak. But then K&P would often show how great they could be by coming up with some upsets wins in the OSP rounds at both the 1986 and 1987 Worlds. I personally had K&P clearly ahead in the FD in 1986 and 1987 although most of the judges felt differently.

By the time K&P were the top couple, it's kind of clear that most of the judges probably didn't really care about content or difficulty even if they should've. Because neither D&D nor U&Z should've been anywhere close to K&P in 1990 to 1992 if they actually did. Heck, even G&P (who were in their infancy as a team) had better content and difficulty than both D&D and U&Z during those years. But it was in 1994, with some of the most choreographically lacking programs they ever skated that G&P finally defeated U&Z and even the legendary T&D. And it's probably due to the reason I had mentioned: the judges didn't care about content or difficulty, it was more about how appealing they found the program.

 

[bardtoob]

Men

1. John Curry
2. Robin Cousins
3. Dick Button
4. Alexei Yagudin
5. Evgeny Plushenko
6. Yuzuru Hanyu (if he wins 2nd OGM could climb to #1)
7. Kurt Browning
8. Toller Cranston
9. Gilles Grafstrom
10. Karl Schafer

Honorable mentions- Brian Boitano, Brian Orser, Ulrich Salchow, Javier Fernandez, Scott Hamilton, Stephane Lambiel, Daisuke Takahashi, Patrick Chan

To me, David Jenkins, in his own way, puts all these skaters to shame except maybe Patrick Chan. It is interesting to note that a judge gave David a 6.0 in the second mark.

 

[Spun Silver]

To me, David Jenkins, in his own way, puts all these skaters to shame except maybe Patrick Chan. It is interesting to note that a judge gave David a 6.0 in the second mark.

Wow. That's Entertainment -- and technique!

 

[ohashibiles]

Janet Lynn has an Olympic medal, two World medals and five US championship gold medals. So I wouldn't call her relatively undecorated. I think your lists should be called My 10 Favorite Skaters.

In terms of the whole of skating history that is relatively speaking undecorated. That wouldnt even make her amongst the top 50 most accomplished ladies singles skaters in history.

And half of the skaters I listed I dont like at all so a giant no to your last sentence.

 

[ohashibiles]

I know many will disagree but I honestly don't think K&O were all that close to G&P. I actually think A&P were worthier challengers to G&P than K&O were even if A&P had still a ways to go in terms of their own development at that time (and thus they too weren't all that close to G&P in that respect). Comparing K&O to A&P, K&O skated very aggressive programs with a lot of speed and power but A&P skated closer together and I usually found that their programs had more ambitious content, especially in 1996 and 1998. I admit that A&P didn't have the best material in 1997 though.

But I do agree that K&P probably had more stiff competition than G&P. The thing about K&P's rivalry with B&B was that B&B had some awesome compulsories. And so if B&B were to win the compulsory rounds at Europeans or Worlds, the standings would almost become set in stone so to speak. But then K&P would often show how great they could be by coming up with some upsets wins in the OSP rounds at both the 1986 and 1987 Worlds. I personally had K&P clearly ahead in the FD in 1986 and 1987 although most of the judges felt differently.

By the time K&P were the top couple, it's kind of clear that most of the judges probably didn't really care about content or difficult even if they should've. Because neither D&D nor U&Z should've been anywhere close to K&P in 1990 to 1992 if they actually did. Heck, even G&P (who were in their infancy as a team) had better content and difficulty than both D&D and U&Z during those years. But it was in 1994, with some of the most choreographically lacking programs they ever skated that G&P finally defeated U&Z and even the legendary T&D. And it's probably due to the reason I had mentioned: the judges didn't care about content or difficult, it was more about how appealing they found the program.

I was trying to be as generous to G&P's competition as possible by listing K&O as a respectable competitor of them. I agree in reality that is probably even a stretch. K&O were a lot closer to G&P than A&P with the judges though. A&P in fact never came close to beating K&O once in 95-98. Whether that was right or not, that was reality, so it wouldnt make sense to rate A&P as a bigger threat.

I agree on all you said regarding K&P and their rivals. Still factoring all things, political favor, sheer abilities and quality of their opponents, circumstances, they had far tougher competitors with B&B, D&D, U&Z, than anything G&P had by a long ways.

 

[Anyasnake]

Being the best is not just about winning all the medals for sure, it's about what you brought to the sport.
Everyone is going to have a different answer, but as long as they appear on your list, they have made an impact - or change the sport.

Men : I have thought about all the possibilities, return every situation in my head, etc and I came to the conclusion that Yuzuru Hanyu might be one of the greatest skaters of all time, if not THE one. And he is not my favourite.
In no order, the one that have impacted the sport : Plushenko, Hanyu, Yagudin, Fernandez (influence in Spain), Chan, Takahashi (one of my all time favourite), Browning... I'm too young to know the rest though :/
I won't include Chen, Uno or Jin, they have to prove themselves a bit more. Not yet.

Ladies : Same with Hanyu, I think Mao Asada. Even if I was rooting for Yuna in 2010. Everything she brought to the table : longevity, skills, following the "3A tradition", the enormous impact she had, her rivalry with Yuna. And I'll put Yuna Kim in a very close 2nd ? Michelle Kwan too - one of the most famous ever and she is not an OGM. Midori Ito, Katarina Witt, Kristi Yamaguchi... Actually I won't be able to rank them. Perhaps Mao a tiny biiiiit first

Pairs : This is where I have the least of knowledge. Shen/Zhao, Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze, Savchenko/Szolkowy, and obviously Gordeeva/Grinkov. It is safe to say that Aljona Savchenko will go down as one of the most talented (pair) skater of all time, but I prefer putting people with their partner. Her and Bruno have my favourite programs (perhaps ever).

Dance : When you say "the best ever", "greatest of all time", you think on multiple layers. Technicality (in your respective era), originality, overall impact, and then medals perhaps. This is where it's almost unfair because Torvill&Dean have had such an impact and revolutionnized Ice Dance in a way that it is going to be too hard to ever top that. In an objective way, they really are GOAT. They still resonate, more than 30 years later.
Let's cut that by era. I did not pay attention to everyone (again too young), but Klimova/Ponomarenko, Grishuk/Platov, The Duschenays, Anissina/Peizerat, and so on.
There was a "Russian/European" era, and America started with a new trend : very athletic programs. Bourne/Kraatz, Belbin/Agosto, the latter bringing a sense of youth and fun to the very dramatic programs. I loved the originality of Delobel/Schoenfelder (the 2006 FD was everything).
A turning point for me was Virtue/Moir in 2008. They had the superior technique despite being so young and combined very athletic programs with incredibly emotionnal performances, Umbrellas at world 2008 was a changing tide in Ice Dance. Also, they were elegant. So refreshing ! No more OTT outfits, focus on the dance. And then, Davis/White took Ice Dance to whole new level of athleticism and we saw one of the best rivalry in the discipline, ever.
The same way you could feel a change with Virtue/Moir, there was a change in 2014-2015. There was supposed to be "continuity" in what V/M and D/W left. Yet, it took a very unexpected modern/contemporary turn with the rise of Papadakis/Cizeron. They brought a freshness, it was about using your whole body and let's forget you are on the ice (a bit like V/M in 2008 but in a much more prounouced and modern way). But they have so much more to show... Let's wait.

EDIT : again, there is no "list". The only one I'll put for sure would be Yuzuru Hanyu, Mao Asada, Yuna Kim, Gordeeva/Grinkov and Torvill/Dean. I don't care about a ranking, but about what they've done for figure skating.

 

[briancoogaert]

I like Mao more as Yuna but I disagree with your explanation.

Your lists are very questionable..

Because such a list can't be explained as it seems to be just personal preferences ! Lol
But I love some of his/her picks. Especially John Curry

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I know many will disagree but I honestly don't think K&O were all that close to G&P. I actually think A&P were worthier challengers to G&P than K&O were even if A&P had still a ways to go in terms of their own development at that time (and thus they too weren't all that close to G&P in that respect). Comparing K&O to A&P, K&O skated very aggressive programs with a lot of speed and power but A&P skated closer together and I usually found that their programs had more ambitious content, especially in 1996 and 1998. I admit that A&P didn't have the best material in 1997 though.

But I do agree that K&P probably had more stiff competition than G&P. The thing about K&P's rivalry with B&B was that B&B had some awesome compulsories. And so if B&B were to win the compulsory rounds at Europeans or Worlds, the standings would almost become set in stone so to speak. But then K&P would often show how great they could be by coming up with some upsets wins in the OSP rounds at both the 1986 and 1987 Worlds. I personally had K&P clearly ahead in the FD in 1986 and 1987 although most of the judges felt differently.

By the time K&P were the top couple, it's kind of clear that most of the judges probably didn't really care about content or difficulty even if they should've. Because neither D&D nor U&Z should've been anywhere close to K&P in 1990 to 1992 if they actually did. Heck, even G&P (who were in their infancy as a team) had better content and difficulty than both D&D and U&Z during those years. But it was in 1994, with some of the most choreographically lacking programs they ever skated that G&P finally defeated U&Z and even the legendary T&D. And it's probably due to the reason I had mentioned: the judges didn't care about content or difficulty, it was more about how appealing they found the program.

A&P were really criminally underrated their whole career. Especialy 96-98 though. Most agree they should have won bronze at the 96 worlds over Bourne & Kraatz, although I will give Bourne & Kraatz a ton of credit for improving their programs a lot in the short time since the GPF, but still IMO not enough. However I would have given them silver over Krylova & Ovsiannikov here which it seems they were never even considered for.

Their 97 programs were kind of blah, so I might have had them off the podium in 4th at the 97 worlds, but they dropped behind a post prime Moniotte & Lavanchy and nearly behind Punsalen & Swallow this year which I didnt agree with at all.

98 they were really undermarked at times. Their original dance at the GPF absolutely destroyed both G&P and B&K and were placed only 3rd. Their OD was better than both those teams when skated well, even without mistakes, and G&P had a fall (and B&K a stumble/misstep in their already awful OD). There is a good case for them winning overall here due to the OD even if G&P were the clear winners of the FD. They probably also should have won Trophee de France where G&P had a huge disruptive fall which they took a long time getting into. They also had awful costumes, and the program had some issues and needed some major tweakings which they did. A&P were excellent and should have won over that, even with their FD having less content than G&P. Interestingly G&P's wins with mistakes against K&O and B&K, sometimes minor ones, get alot of undeserved flak, and yet this fall which is the one that really should have cost them a win to A&P went completely underreported; but that is due to A&P being seen as the main foil of B&K were given tons of negative press until they started contending for gold in 99.

At the Games they didnt skate their best in the OD (their best portion) and their compulsories werent super great so the bronze was probably right, but their 4th in the FD behind both K&O and B&K was ridiculous. They clearly should have been 2nd in that portion.

Then at Worlds they probably were robbed of the win. K&O had a bad 2nd compulsory dance yet were still placed 1st over better dances by all of A&P, B&K, and Punsalen & Swallow. A&P should have clearly won the OD, hands down, yet were placed only 2nd by every judge behind the pre determined winners K&O (and ridiculous NA media tried to potray a controversy that they beat B&K's awful OD for 2nd, omigod). Then the FD they were also undermarked, and again no judges had them over K&O. A&P and B&K (who had their best FD performance ever even if Riverdance is overrated, especialy as far as difficulty and content) both should have beaten K&O in the FD portion here IMO.

99 GPF and Europeans losses to K&O were ridiculous. 99 worlds was closer as K&O did improve their free dance, but I would have still gone with A&P. If there is any case for K&O winning it is possibly winning the OD which wouldnt have given A&P a shot at the gold with the compulsory placings (I didnt see any of the 1st compulsory dance skates so cant comment on A&P being 3rd behind B&K there).

2001 worlds loss to Fusar Poli & Margalio was ridicilous too. Their loss at Europeans was probably right as that was a really bad fall, but the scoring at Europeans already showed the tide swinging heavily away from A&P politically even before that fall, they had some 3rd places in the OD.

Their GPF loss to B&K in Canada before the SLC Games was also suspect, especialy as B&K should have only been 3rd in the 1st FD behind Drobiazko & Vanagas, yet were kept 2nd with a big trip. Then their nearly losing to Lobacheva & Averbuhk at the Games was preposterous, especialy as L&A should have only been 4th-6th in the compulsory dances. Mouthy Fusar Poli and perennial whiners like Pavlo Vanagas and Shae Lynn Bourne actually all did have some merits to complain about the compulsory dance judging of L&A and their being ahead of all of them. They also probably skipped worlds since losing to L&A there seemed inevitable, as they seemed enthused about going to worlds post Games before the Games.

I put them as high as 6th on my list for putting up with all the political BS the did in their career, while having the media even often wrongly frame them as benefitting from politics to boot, and still achieving all they did. All against a strong field, and the number of 5-4 splits they lost in major events is simply bad luck to a large extent too. They are real fighters.