What Do Fans Want?

[once_upon]

Why do the footwork sequences get more excitement from viewers?

There are many of us who don't recognize the tiny details of jumps which seems to be the focus of those wanting consistent judges.

The footwork sequences - I don't know what rockers are, I can't determine the steps, I can recognize speed or the relationship to music - just enjoyment.

So I think we are really looking at 2 or 3 fan bases.

Taylor's concerts manage to do it. There are the fans who knows every single word of all her songs. Who recognize the era, who knows everything about the content of the concert. Then there's the casual fan or the parents dragged to the concert. They come because of another die hard fan who could tell an off not dragged them to the concert, or one who has heard her songs. They leave being impressed with the show.

Skating should look to draw from many fan bases. Those trying to draw in fans need to figure out how to reach all.

 

[ice coverage]

... Do the USFS thing and host meet and greets or autograph/merch sessions at big competitions - and maybe encourage/allow skaters to sell their own merch there instead of the competition branded merch. ...

FWIW, Ilia's merch had a major presence within the USFS merch area at 2024 Skate America.
Perhaps even a dominant presence, to my eyes. USFS was offering quite a few different items of Ilia's merch, alongside event-branded stuff.

 

[barbk]

It would be interesting to consider why a judged sport like halfpipe attracts such a significant audience, and how collegiate gymnastics has grown into an arena-filling series of competitions.

When Vidmar, Dagget and Gaylord were competing at UCLA we never saw crowds, though they were remarkable gymnasts.

 

[tony]

Taylor's concerts manage to do it. There are the fans who knows every single word of all her songs. Who recognize the era, who knows everything about the content of the concert. Then there's the casual fan or the parents dragged to the concert. They come because of another die hard fan who could tell an off not dragged them to the concert, or one who has heard her songs. They leave being impressed with the show.

Skating should look to draw from many fan bases. Those trying to draw in fans need to figure out how to reach all.

Big difference is a Taylor concert is ~3 hours long. One night. A skating competition, even one with a small entry list like at a Grand Prix, can go on for close to 8 hours in a day. For several days. Worlds/Euros/Junior Worlds? 6+ hours for one segment.

Taylor tickets were probably $200-$300 when they first came out, and people traveling only needed one night for hotels. Otherwise, she went to so many cities that chances are she came somewhere relatively close to most of her fan bases.

 

[kwanfan1818]

They're also stuck between a rock and hard place for competitions in most of North America: the venues have exclusive deals with food services, and sometimes it's not even worth their while to open them or have decent selections, when fans are often held hostage all day, if they don't want to miss some skating. Even in Europe, I can only remember two competitions with good decent food options, and one was the cafe at the arena in Moscow where they held 2005 Worlds.

For three hours, you can live on arena food or eat beforehand. For eight hours, not so much.

 

[once_upon]

Big difference is a Taylor concert is ~3 hours long. One night. A skating competition, even one with a small entry list like at a Grand Prix, can go on for close to 8 hours in a day. For several days. Worlds/Euros/Junior Worlds? 6+ hours for one segment.

Taylor tickets were probably $200-$300 when they first came out, and people traveling only needed one night for hotels. Otherwise, she went to so many cities that chances are she came somewhere relatively close to most of her fan bases.

The actual concert might be 3 or 4 hours, but is much more than that. You have the whole day activities. When my dils and granddaughters went I believe they got to the parking around 8 am. The concert got over around 11 pm, the probably didn't get back to the hotel until 1:30 a

I think their tickets were in the upper rows of the football stadium. I believe they were the lucky ones who actually got the pre sale tickets but I know they were way more than our pink tickets. Probably in the $500-700 range.

Yeah not a week. Maybe I don't know what tickets for Taylor concert typically run or the length of a typical concert in Miami, but I do know it's a day long event in the Midwest. I also know a football game in that same arena is pretty much a 10-12 hour day.

I said in my opinion skating needs to meet fans on many sides.

I'm never going to be you in technique identification and quite frankly I don't want to be. I've said many many times I'm a fan who knows what she likes. I'm never going to be able say on page xx, section xxx, rule xxxx, (b) xxxxx or say that jump should of ^^^ (because I don't know the carrot means).

But skating needs fans of all kinds. We want to grow fan base? There's gotta be room for all.

 

[Karen-W]

Well, you can't compare most concert-goers to Swifties. I might have two nieces who made weekend trips to Nashville and Las Vegas for two different Taylor Swift concerts. Skating competitions are similar, though, to attending music festivals - and those tickets can be VERY pricey. One of the more well-known country music festivals in the PNW is the Oregon Jamboree, which happens over 3 days and attracts fans from all over who camp out (in tents or in trailers/RVs) and the ticket price range for that is $80-385 - which is going to depend on the # of days you want to attend or which artists you want to see.

I agree with @once_upon about football games, especially college, being an all-day experience for most fans. For several years, older niece's youth group assisted with directing cars & cleaning up trash/collecting cans for recycling at a car park directly across the street from Autzen Stadium (go Ducks!) and it was usually a LONG, exhausting day for everyone. Fans were already arriving to set up their tailgates by 8am, even when the game didn't start until 4pm or 7pm. I'm not sure what they charge now for the RVs - 15 years ago (the last time I worked one of them, thank God) the going rate for RVs was $100, IIRC, but I'm sure it's got to be much more than that now given the basic rise in inflation, etc. And then there was the cost of tickets. We had repeat customers who had season tickets and liked our location/price, etc. But, when you consider what a season ticket holder is spending on the entire experience of 6 game days per season, it's probably comparable to what a skating fan spends to attend one skating competition. And then, there are the "fans that travel" - which is definitely a thing in college football.

So, I'm not really buying into the notion that skating is necessarily more expensive, requires more of a time commitment, or is asking more of its fans than some other very mainstream, successful sports here in the US. I mean... It takes at least the same level of dedication to travel from pretty much ANYWHERE in the world to Lincoln NE, Auburn AL, or University Park PA to attend a college football game as it does to travel to Lake Placid NY, Spokane WA, or Hershey PA for a skating competition.

 

[once_upon]

Yep. And concert goers and football goers travel everywhere just like skating fans.

And there are similar complaints. Parking! Last KC football game, parking was $50. But $100 for the gold pass. That still about 1/2 - 3/4 mile walk to the stadium and another 1/4 - 3/4 mile to your seat. Same complaints about food, water, alcohol as skating events. Only hamburgers, hot dogs, greasy food. $8 bottle of water.

 

[manhn]

I am a hockey fan but my interest peaks when my Canucks are winning. So, let Canadian skaters win more frequently?

The weird thing is is I enjoy skating boards like FSU, skating podcasts, and skating YouTube channels, but the actual skating these days? Hmmm….

 

[Karen-W]

Yep. And concert goers and football goers travel everywhere just like skating fans.

And there are similar complaints. Parking! Last KC football game, parking was $50. But $100 for the gold pass. That still about 1/2 - 3/4 mile walk to the stadium and another 1/4 - 3/4 mile to your seat. Same complaints about food, water, alcohol as skating events. Only hamburgers, hot dogs, greasy food. $8 bottle of water.

Which is why tail-gating has become such a big thing for a lot of football fans (NFL & college) - you can bring your grill & coolers and have decent food before the game at least, lol. And, maybe, if you're paying for premium parking right across from the stadium, you have enough time to go back & forth during halftime for some food too.

 

[Simone411]

I gave several points in my first post on how to change the technical elements side of things to allow for more ‘artistic’ moments, which are very much lacking through most programs these days.

Is that not what fans want? At least I’m offering up a way to change things around and at least allow the ability for skaters to not have to rush element to element.

You're so right, and that's exactly why I said I was going to miss Jason Brown when he retires. The skaters that aren't as artistic work on those jumps, and I believe that they need to also work more on their presentation (artistry) to make it balance out better.

 

[once_upon]

Which is why tail-gating has become such a big thing for a lot of football fans (NFL & college) - you can bring your grill & coolers and have decent food before the game at least, lol. And, maybe, if you're paying for premium parking right across from the stadium, you have enough time to go back & forth during halftime for some food too.

Nope not enough time. The closest parking in Arrowhead is blocks away and if you happen to purchase or get VIP parking, there's still exiting a specific gate which is long ways around. Getting back in to the stadium itself you go back through security. Being an older stadium and preconceived notions football is a male fan base locating a female bathroom without the long lines is difficult. Half time is at most 20-30 minutes

If you are clumsy enough to fall down the steps, you aren't going anywhere

 

[On My Own]

I'm going to regret posting in the thread containing Mr. "Yuma Kagiyama's jumps are perfect", but I do wonder something that has nothing to do with skating: do the fanbases of other sports care so very much about "what do fans want"?

I am not part of other sports fanbases, but I do know people in other fanbases. I don't see some table tennis fan going "Yeah remember that 1/8 round in 1995 men's doubles at that one comp?????? It was so amazing man, I want to watch it again, pity it's gone off youtube".

And it's a sport. I imagine an overwhelming number of athletes don't really care about fans. They're good to have, that's about it. Fans thing is more about sponsors for the federations, which probably matter more to skating than other sports because it's so darn expensive for multiple reasons. Apart from that though, is the audience thing really any different from any other niche sport? I am resistant to the conversations about sports being turned into conversations about music tours and idol shows. If you want fans, go be a dancer. A real one, not "ice dancer".

 

[tony]

At this point, I don't even know what I'm reading in this thread anymore. A skating competition is, at minimum, two full days of events. Worlds, Nationals, if you want to see all of it you're talking almost a week. Travel to said city from wherever else they are coming from. Maybe internationally. Hotels for X amount of days.

People going to football games at the college level are by and far students and alumni that go/went to said University. I went to Ohio State. I got up early in the morning and got wasted like everyone else in the dorms and then went. The bars even opened early in the AM on game days. If people are traveling to college football games or NFL games weekly (as in, following their team to all the away games), they A) obviously have plenty of money and B) have a schedule that works around being gone all day either Saturday or Sunday plus travel time. But please show me target audience-aged people who are doing this on the norm-- not the students who have home game season-tickets. And again, football is one day a week, one game. Regardless of how long tailgating goes on. That's moving from a parking lot with friends and family to the stadium. Skating requires sitting in a cold rink all day and night if you want to be on that level of fandom, and to fill up the seats for all-event passes.

The actual concert might be 3 or 4 hours, but is much more than that. You have the whole day activities. When my dils and granddaughters went I believe they got to the parking around 8 am. The concert got over around 11 pm, the probably didn't get back to the hotel until 1:30 a

And again, that's one full day of festivities. For one concert. For an artist that most likely comes once every few years.

I said in my opinion skating needs to meet fans on many sides.

I'm never going to be you in technique identification and quite frankly I don't want to be. I've said many many times I'm a fan who knows what she likes. I'm never going to be able say on page xx, section xxx, rule xxxx, (b) xxxxx or say that jump should of ^^^ (because I don't know the carrot means).

But skating needs fans of all kinds. We want to grow fan base? There's gotta be room for all.

So what are you even arguing now? I'm confused. I don't see anything that's going to 'help' with fans, and I'm going to reiterate that I pointed out in my first post that many fans don't want to open the rulebook or know the intricacies of skating. I never said anyone had to. It's obvious here on FSU, but as has been pointed out by someone else within my age group and maybe is more aware of discussions happening outside of the message board, there is a younger/newer fandom that is also into the rules and discussions about them.

Skating needs to get fans that are young who are energized and want to continue to follow the sport. Not the ones that still complain about the lack of coverage on broadcast TV-- that train left the station long ago. The long-time older fans have stuck it out this long (I mean, I've even followed for over 30 years at this point) aren't going anywhere.

FWIW, I looked at face value tickets for Taylor Swift and they ranged from $49 to $499, apparently. Of course most cities sold out very quickly and people had to resort to secondary markets.

And another thing to consider: Worlds mens and womens free skates are basically sold out. What are the fans missing if they are still going to fill up the seats for the big event?

 

[Karen-W]

At this point, I don't even know what I'm reading in this thread anymore. A skating competition is, at minimum, two full days of events. Worlds, Nationals, if you want to see all of it you're talking almost a week. Travel to said city from wherever else they are coming from. Maybe internationally. Hotels for X amount of days.

People going to football games at the college level are by and far students and alumni that go/went to said University. I went to Ohio State. I got up early in the morning and got wasted like everyone else in the dorms and then went. The bars even opened early in the AM on game days. If people are traveling to college football games or NFL games weekly (as in, following their team to all the away games), they A) obviously have plenty of money and B) have a schedule that works around being gone all day either Saturday or Sunday plus travel time. But please show me target audience-aged people who are doing this on the norm-- not the students who have home game season-tickets. And again, football is one day a week, one game. Regardless of how long tailgating goes on. That's moving from a parking lot with friends and family to the stadium. Skating requires sitting in a cold rink all day and night if you want to be on that level of fandom, and to fill up the seats for all-event passes.

LOL - @tony, yes, fans DO travel. In hordes and around the country. Just because your own experience was as a student does not mean that it mirrors that of these fans that travel to as many games as possible during the regular season.

You're right - those people who do travel do budget away their money accordingly and arrange their work schedules. Not at all unlike the Pink Ladies of FS who, we've discovered, are doctors & work insane hours during the rest of the year so that they have the holiday time banked up to afford to travel the globe for 4-5 weeks to attend most of the GPs, and then also hit up the GPF, Euros, sometimes 4CCs, and, of course, Worlds, every year.

I don't know why it's so hard for you to comprehend that some people will do whatever it takes to feed their sports fandom - work whatever hours they need to during the off-season, save up their $$, etc. And if you think sitting in an outdoor stadium in Green Bay, Buffalo, KC or several other notable venues in November or December is much different than sitting in a cold rink for 6-8 hours during a GP or 10-12 hours during Euros/Worlds, well... I trust @once_upon to be able to make that comparison better than you since it doesn't seem like you've had that experience.

And again, that's one full day of festivities. For one concert. For an artist that most likely comes once every few years.

As I pointed out, it's incorrect to compare a skating competition to a one-day concert. A skating competition is akin to attending a music festival. Similar level of well-known artists and lesser known artists (especially a GP with the seeded skaters in each discipline), similar length of time (all day for 2-3 days), similar housing/travel costs.

 

[tony]

LOL - @tony, yes, fans DO travel. In hordes and around the country. Just because your own experience was as a student does not mean that it mirrors that of these fans that travel to as many games as possible during the regular season.

I didn't say they didn't. I said it's under certain circumstances that allow them to do so, which you even quoted next- so why you continue to argue against things I didn't say is beyond me.

I don't know why it's so hard for you to comprehend that some people will do whatever it takes to feed their sports fandom - work whatever hours they need to during the off-season, save up their $$, etc. And if you think sitting in an outdoor stadium in Green Bay, Buffalo, KC or several other notable venues in November or December is much different than sitting in a cold rink for 6-8 hours during a GP or 10-12 hours during Euros/Worlds, well... I trust @once_upon to be able to make that comparison better than you since it doesn't seem like you've had that experience.

There's no lack of understanding anything here. But I will tell you that Ohio in late November isn't exactly sunny. But what do I know. I even have photos somewhere of jumping in the lake before the Michigan game for several years in a row when I was at OSU, and there was definitely snow on the ground.

As I pointed out, it's incorrect to compare a skating competition to a one-day concert. A skating competition is akin to attending a music festival. Similar level of well-known artists and lesser known artists (especially a GP with the seeded skaters in each discipline), similar length of time (all day for 2-3 days), similar housing/travel costs.

And I know full-well about these festivals. I used to travel around the country for pride-related events. But again, what do I know.

And again, I'm going back to my first post that brought up the issue of people losing interest in the actual skating and ways to maybe work around it-- such as dumping a 45 second long element to add more time for choreographic 'moments'. You seem to just want to argue about everything else, that has nothing to do with retaining interest in the skating. "What fans want" based on FSU posts by those not as rule-savvy is still judging that makes sense and is fair, more interesting programs, and retaining accessibility to coverage from what I've seen. I keep reading that the sport needs to cater to all kinds of fans, but the minute the results are wonky or foolish, everyone has something to say about how judging works.

 

[Karen-W]

And again, I'm going back to my first post that brought up the issue of people losing interest in the actual skating and ways to maybe work around it-- such as dumping a 45 second long element to add more time for choreographic 'moments'. You seem to just want to argue about everything else, that has nothing to do with retaining interest in the skating. "What fans want" based on FSU posts by those not as rule-savvy is still judging that makes sense and is fair, more interesting programs, and retaining accessibility to coverage from what I've seen. I keep reading that the sport needs to cater to all kinds of fans, but the minute the results are wonky or foolish, everyone has something to say about how judging works.

I think the problem here in this statement is that the rules are perceived by many fans, even those who understand the concept of jump rotation downgrades & spin levels, to be TOO minute & specific. I don't disagree with your suggestion of losing the step sequence necessarily. But, you're not offering any other ideas that would also make programs less formulaic than they are now. We talked about some of this in the run-up to the ISU Congress when the Singles & Pairs Tech Committee wanted to make a bunch of changes to the judging system mid-Olympic cycle. I thought their suggestions were a tepid step in the right direction, but they could go a lot further and offer a lot more options to the skaters than they were, that would give us more organic, entertaining programs.

 

[once_upon]

You asked about fans and what to do to attract new fans. You obviously want technical fans. I've said there is a place for them, but you can't build the sport by just die hard technical fans. You need a variety different level of fans.

I'm out - other than your claim of college fans are students and alumni only. I've never been to an Ohio State game, there are two NFL teams in Ohio so maybe that influences Ohio State game attendance. But there are definitely more than students and alumni at my team's games.

Yes skating has multiple day events. Yes there is more expense, more hotel days, more time invested. But what education of the casual fan is given. I've been at events where the local attendees who one session thought that was all and surprised it wasn't "over".

We disagree. We won't ever agree on this. The extreme technique fan does push some of us out of attending or even wanting to watch.

As I said I'm out.

 

[On My Own]

I'm an out, and for that college football, I'm technical.

 

[tony]

You asked about fans and what to do to attract new fans. You obviously want technical fans. I've said there is a place for them, but you can't build the sport by just die hard technical fans. You need a variety different level of fans.

I don't know how else I can state my opinion that if you want to attract new fans to a sport with such stiff rules that make almost every skater plow through the same elements in the same order with little to no time for presentation or any kind of character, the changes have to come first at a technical level so that the sport has a new energy with more memorable skating and programs.

There are people in this thread and throughout the last few years that have said their fandom has completely dropped off because of programs all looking the same or the Russians taking over their own country is suffering a lull. Ask those "fans" what they are missing since I'm apparently not at that level.

I'm out - other than your claim of college fans are students and alumni only. I've never been to an Ohio State game, there are two NFL teams in Ohio so maybe that influences Ohio State game attendance. But there are definitely more than students and alumni at my team's games.

Didn't say "only". Not even close. Why do I have to keep arguing against things I didn't say?

We disagree. We won't ever agree on this. The extreme technique fan does push some of us out of attending or even wanting to watch.

As I said I'm out.

Why in the hell would that stop anyone from "attending"? Go and enjoy it because you want to, for whatever it is that draws you to the sport. That comment makes no sense. If I sit here and say the reverse-- that all the people who argue about results being unfair but don't even know any of the rules push me out of the sport, or the ones who focus more on makeup and costumes than anything else are supposedly pushing me out, then I'm a jerk. But it won't push me out of the sport, because I still happen to enjoy the skating itself.

I think the problem here in this statement is that the rules are perceived by many fans, even those who understand the concept of jump rotation downgrades & spin levels, to be TOO minute & specific. I don't disagree with your suggestion of losing the step sequence necessarily. But, you're not offering any other ideas that would also make programs less formulaic than they are now. We talked about some of this in the run-up to the ISU Congress when the Singles & Pairs Tech Committee wanted to make a bunch of changes to the judging system mid-Olympic cycle. I thought their suggestions were a tepid step in the right direction, but they could go a lot further and offer a lot more options to the skaters than they were, that would give us more organic, entertaining programs.

In the last 10 years, I've put out many suggestions-- including some that the ISU adapted in ways. Not because I said them, but because they are pretty logical. For example, the elements all being on the same % +/- of base value rather than -1 -2 -3 and whatever else they had for jumps.

I've also said in other threads that I'd like to see more choreographic spins rather than the same repeated spins in the LP, and a larger list of potential elements if they are going to go the choreographic element route in singles skating- such as even maybe having a one-foot sequence amongst many other options.

The ISU boxed the skaters in with the Zagitova rule of only getting bonus for the last 3 jumping passes later in the program. So now 95% of the singles skaters do these jumps at 2:00, 2:10, and 2:20.

@Private Citizen brought up the point that people want to see Biellmanns and backflips and all the big-ticket moves, which I can't argue against. Some of the pro pairs competitions of the 90s had amazing elements that aren't allowed in ISU competition still but they got the audience going.

I think people in general these days don't have attention spans for long days of skating, or long anything. The younger group would probably love the cheesefest pro competitions that were just 2 hours worth of their time and you get a full competition out of it with 10.0 easy judging.

 

[Wynter]

One of the panelists presented a survey that their organization had done of "core fans" - regular event attenders and followers of performers on social media etc. The survey listed several kinds of incentives and asked the fans to rate the incentives from most to least attractive, as in which would make them most likely to spend money on getting that incentive. These were the overall rankings:

• early access to products (like new music)
• products released exclusively to fans
• exclusive access to tickets
• exclusive merchandise
• "behind the scenes" content
• access to artists (e.g. meet and greets)
• access to online communities

Obviously some of these are not relevant to skating - like products exclusively made for fans - but it was interesting that exclusive access to tickets was ranked so highly, with all the ticketing problems that skating fans regularly encounter. Also, given how much resources most federations invest in social media and "get to know [skater] campaigns, "behind the scenes" content wasn't that highly ranked. Could skating federations learn something from this kind of research?

I don't think this will be doable for FS in general, but I am quite amused when I noticed that Yuzuru is doing these things.

• early access to products (like new music) - He released new video in his membership channel 1 month before releasing it for public
• products released exclusively to fans - There some products released, usually in partnership with his sponsors
• exclusive access to tickets - He gives early ticket lottery for his ice shows on his YT membership channel
• exclusive merchandise - His shows has good quality merchandise you can wear even on regular days
• "behind the scenes" content - He posted some videos on his channel, and the ending credit on his ice shows containing behind the scenes contents. Fans requested this so much that nowadays even magazine publishers will share behind the scenes content during his photoshoots
• access to artists (e.g. meet and greets) - He greets fans after every ice show, interacting with fans (During his latest show on Wednesday evening he asked how many fans are taking leave to watch today's show and how many have to work the next day, etc.)
• access to online communities

 

[On My Own]

I don't think this will be doable for FS in general, but I am quite amused when I noticed that Yuzuru is doing these things.

• early access to products (like new music) - He released new video in his membership channel 1 month before releasing it for public
• products released exclusively to fans - There some products released, usually in partnership with his sponsors
• exclusive access to tickets - He gives early ticket lottery for his ice shows on his YT membership channel
• exclusive merchandise - His shows has good quality merchandise you can wear even on regular days
• "behind the scenes" content - He posted some videos on his channel, and the ending credit on his ice shows containing behind the scenes contents. Fans requested this so much that nowadays even magazine publishers will share behind the scenes content during his photoshoots
• access to artists (e.g. meet and greets) - He greets fans after every ice show, interacting with fans (During his latest show on Wednesday evening he asked how many fans are taking leave to watch today's show and how many have to work the next day, etc.)
• access to online communities

He's not competing though, that's the difference. He didn't do much of these things before 2022!

 

[Miezekatze]

As someone who is a music fan and concert goer, it's certainly not less expensive. I spent insane amounts of money on my favorite artists Like if my favorite artist tours in any given year, I'll end up spending something like 1000 - 2000 Euros on it, if I calculate honestly. Plus some additional concerts from people I just like.

And I've been a huge skating fan for 25+ years, but I couldn't care less about all the stuff that tony finds important, I can't even read the pbp threads on this board, because of all this talk about edges and underrotations...yawn. To enjoy figure skating live, I'd need more emotions, more excitement, ...also less waiting times maybe. The length of a skating event is not really what makes it attractive IMO.

But if I think about why I really prefer concert travels over skating travels these days, I'd say the honest main reason is:

Watching a concert on tv or in a stream is maybe 5% of the experience of seeing it live. A concert live for me is wonderful when I'm close up to a the stage, but it's also wonderful if I'm very very far away from the stage (I saw Taylor Swift and Adele from "nosebleed" seats, because I didn't want to spend so much money on the tickets and it was wonderful). It's always much better than seeing it on a DVD or tv or stream. It can be fun from far away, because the main thing will still be the live music experience.
To be honest I also find music fandom more positive and engaged. If I go to a concert 95% of people will be excited, while in skating 75% of the fan always seem to be complaining about everything they see.

Watching figure skating on tv or in a stream is about 50-75% of the experience of seeing it live and you see the actual skating better than if you go live unless you pay for very very good seats. I saw Worlds in Helsinki from nosebleed seats and in hindsight that wasn't really better than just staying home and watching on tv. I enjoyed the trip and the experience, going with my best friend to Helsinki even in winter is a cool trip, but for seeing the skating it's sort of mediocre. I don't really enjoy skating if I can't see the facial expressions of the skaters, which means you have to buy really really good seats and that's just very very expensive, so for me it's more fun to just go to Nebelhorn Trophy once a year, where the all event ticket for 3 full days is 70 Euros.
Especially since Challengers have become very attractive IMO, since the Challenger series was introduced.

Btw talking about the fans being excited, I saw one day of artistic gymnastics Worlds in Stuttgart 2019 and fans are so much more excited there than during skating. It's such an electric atmosphere throughout the whole event, not just in instances where some skaters skates really well or during the last group. Even if like me you only know like 3 gymnasts and nothing about the rules, you get sucked into the atmosphere.
Artistic gymnastics is not too different from skating, but of course it's more fast paced and all the waiting times are missing. Maybe that's also a reason why people at skating events just tend to sit aroudn a lot and stare at the ice instead of oozing excitement. But if the atmosphere at skating live was more like that, then also the difference between watching at home and watching live would be higher and it would be more attractive to watch live.

 

[Wynter]

He's not competing though, that's the difference. He didn't do much of these things before 2022!

Yes, that's why I said it's not doable for FS.

Such things are feasible for "fans of [X] skater", not doable for "fans of the sport". What FS needs now is the easy access of the sport. Can't really offer some "exclusive" things without covering the "basic" things first. Judging integrity will be nice too.

But, tbh, I don't have high hope for both.

 

[Private Citizen]

Why in the hell would that stop anyone from "attending"? Go and enjoy it because you want to, for whatever it is that draws you to the sport. That comment makes no sense.

Hypothesis: People want intuitive results. I don't think people want to pay $$$ to attend an event where they don't understand the scoring. If competitions are always going to come down to microscopic q / < tracings, we're back to the days of compulsory figures. I do think the scoring system misses the forest for the trees in a lot of cases, and some of that impacts fan enjoyment. And I say that as someone who has a good eye for these things.

I really like @Willin's suggestions to get the audience more involved in the scoring.

 

[On My Own]

Yes, that's why I said it's not doable for FS.

Such things are feasible for "fans of [X] skater", not doable for "fans of the sport". What FS needs now is the easy access of the sport. Can't really offer some "exclusive" things without covering the "basic" things first. Judging integrity will be nice too.

But, tbh, I don't have high hope for both.

Yes. I feel this thread is missing the point of a sport haha. Hanyu can do all those things now because he has all the freedom he wants. But I bet he wouldn't have dreamed of doing that while competing, and if ISU or JSF did that when he was competing, it really would have made a farce out of a competition.

All these discussions fit ice shows better. And I still doubt anyone cares all this much about most other niche sports.

 

[just tuned in]

Couple of observations:

People went crazy for Yagudin's "footwork." These kinds of signature features create fandoms. Ditto, Malinin's "raspberry."

Unfair to compare a typical competition of relative unknowns with a Taylor Swift concert. A fairer comparison would be to count the number of fans who travel across the country to see a diving competition.

Tickets to ice shows such as Disney on Ice are affordable, and those shows tour around the country, making them easy to attend. Do they fill up?

 

[her grace]

It’s a judged sport where everyone has an opinion on the second mark without even knowing what goes into it . . .

That’s one of figure skating’s strengths. Everyone gets to have an opinion and think they’re right. During the Olympics, I hear all kinds of discussions at water coolers and on social media about who was better from uninformed non-fans who found the sport compelling enough to watch and discuss.

OTOH, I think more could be done to educate fans on the technical side, especially in the arena. If you attend the event, there’s no “flag on the play” where you know five elements are under review. You just sit there and wait forever while they could include this info on the Jumbotron. There’s no listing of who is winning the FS as opposed to overall standings so you see a great skate and then they’re in 5th. Again, they could easily add this information to the scoreboard.

In some ways, the arena presentation of information treats the event more like a performance and not a sport. I’ve been to several NCAA gym meets and they have a lot more information to display and they manage (ex. Team average score per event, each athlete’s score on the current event with four events running simultaneously, current overall team total).

 

[gkelly]

When it comes to what happens on the ice and how it is scored, clearly not all fans want the same thing.
And what casual fans want may be in direct conflict with what hardworking skaters want.

OTOH, I think more could be done to educate fans on the technical side, especially in the arena. If you attend the event, there’s no “flag on the play” where you know five elements are under review. You just sit there and wait forever while they could include this info on the Jumbotron. There’s no listing of who is winning the FS as opposed to overall standings so you see a great skate and then they’re in 5th. Again, they could easily add this information to the scoreboard.

Totally agree.

Hypothesis: People want intuitive results. I don't think people want to pay $$$ to attend an event where they don't understand the scoring. If competitions are always going to come down to microscopic q / < tracings, we're back to the days of compulsory figures. I do think the scoring system misses the forest for the trees in a lot of cases, and some of that impacts fan enjoyment. And I say that as someone who has a good eye for these things.

Jump rotations aside, if people who don't know about skating technique want intuitive results, does that mean that skating technique should count for nothing in the scoring, only things that the unknowledgeable can see for themselves?

In the arena, speed is much more evident than on video. And theoretically that could be measured objectively. So if there were a speed score, casual fans could understand where it comes from.

But Skating Skills as currently defined becomes more understandable the more you learn about skating. At a minimum, "effortlessness" might be somewhat evident in the arena. But if a fan doesn't know that turning and skating in multiple directions are rewarded, what kinds of turns and combinations of turns are easy, medium difficult, or very difficult, what makes for clean edges and clean turns, what "deep" edges are, etc., they're not going to find the Skating Skills score intuitive.

Some of this could be better communicated to fans in the arena. And on broadcasts. Better educated fans can come to find these scores more intuitive the more they watch and the more they are exposed to respectful communication about the details being scored. Some fans couldn't care less. Others could become more diehard fans if given easier access to the information that explains what's being rewarded.

And then, still, the more knowledgeable fans will care more about things that are objectively visible once they have that knowledge, more casual or more arts/entertainment-oriented fans will continue not to care.

And of course the Performance and Composition scores are necessarily more subjective. Fans can certainly understand the Performance scores as they stand, and could learn to understand the Composition criteria without needing to know much about technique. They will have their own opinions about that part of the scoring, which might be equally valid to many of the judges. But they will surely disagree with each other (and often enjoy debating with each other who had a better program or a better performance). So they will surely also disagree with some of the judges or with the consensus of the whole panel.

Is there anyway around that, short of removing program components from the scoring entirely, so the scoring can be objective without being too technically picky, and just letting people enjoy the performances separately from the results?

But in that case, the skaters would have even less incentive to care about basic skating technique outside of elements, or about program construction and performance. Which would lose a lot of fans.

The subjective parts are the fun parts for a lot fans. So how can they be kept while acknowledging that being more enjoyable in these areas is more subjective (allowing for fun fan debates) but also making final results less "intuitive"?

 

[her grace]

I think the problem here in this statement is that the rules are perceived by many fans, even those who understand the concept of jump rotation downgrades & spin levels, to be TOO minute & specific.

I don’t think they’re too minute and specific, but they are applied very unevenly and unfairly. I await the day when AI takes over . . . and we find out that everyone underrotates. The amount of pre-rotation in jumps since IJS has increased dramatically. And, of course, there’s many skaters who still can’t complete their rotations by the landings. I would be very interested in finding out the degree of jump rotations performed as determined by literally neutral technology.

I’m okay with jump underrotations being penalized, however, that kind of error is less disruptive than step-outs and falls. Like I have questions about a judging system that gives Pogorilaya the bronze over Cesario at 2013 Jr Worlds.

Cesario: https://youtu.be/MmWjic85sUs

Pogrilaya

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