Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by skatingguy, Jan 10, 2018.
It's not the same blue as Gabriella's. It's much brighter - definitely not a dark blue like hers.
Yep, in some pictures Tessa's dress had even a greenish tone.
Excellent post. There is no question that P/C have a very beautiful FD, and their run of the blade and flow is exceptional. But comparing the 2 top teams, looking element for element for difficulty, quality, speed, balance of work between the partners, complexity and variety in steps, amount of time in dance holds instead of side by side, how the elements and choreo express the chosen music (not whether or not we like the music they chose), V/M are a step above. By this criteria, which is what IJS specifies, V/M have an edge. The FD is much closer. But the SD is no contest in my mind. V/M are simply in a world of their own. P/C should be getting a music deduction for pretending Ed Shearen is Latin. It's not Latin. They aren't even trying to meet the criteria. I know they don't like skating to Latin, they said so themselves, but this feels like a big middle finger at the choice for the SD. And their moves are not Latin. V/M are pushing boundaries with rock, but there is no way anyone can say what they are doing is not Latin. Their SD is simply outstanding. Right up there with Prince from last year.
Judges will be judges, politics will be politics. But skaters know. When reporters ask other former and current ice dancers around the world which team is better, they almost always say V/M. P/C are beautiful, and V/M are in a league of their own, the best of all time.
The SD of Gabriella and Guillaume respects all the rules ... they meet all the criteria
Is it the new criteria? All skaters have the right to have their preference (and to say it or not), it does not prove that one couple is "better" than the other ...
Thanks anyway for recognizing that their FD is beautiful
Everyone has their own opinion, but here are some facts to consider: top Latin ballroom dancers are using modern “non-Latin” songs in competition. It is Latin to do this.
Btw, how it is ok to use rock to “push boundaries” while P&C can’t use a modern song?
The P&C dance is Latin - and is getting better as the season progresses. Guillaume in particular looks way better, and the scores show it. I think they can push it even more. Maybe a couple of more world record scores to come.
It's a bit odd for me to read how many critics their SD are getting when meeting all the criterias. This is ballroom latin, not proper latin, otherwise, both teams would have been told to get new SDs. But V/M are "pushing boundaries" with rock, and P/C are giving the middle finger with pop music ? which actually has a tropical vide to it (and the second song : go watch the clip video here they are dancing a rumba - and it's beautiful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp-EO5I60KA ). Both team are pushing boundaries, and a lot of others too. It gives a wider range to all the SDs. I've never seen so much diversity in Latin SDs, and I love both.
I understand you are biased, it's absolutely okay, but let's not pretend that the main rival are doing everything wrong, it won't give anyone the gold in advance.
V/M and P/C don't compare in a way for that "who is better" category because V/M entered Senior in 2006. P/C 7 years later. Give them a bit of time and challenges. No need to put down a team that is much younger on the senior ranks. V/M had like 11 years to prove themselves, P/C had less than 4 since they've been discovered. Actually both have had similar path : an "unexpected" (in Ice Dance terms) rise to the top. I remember in 2015 V/M defending P/C because they were getting criticized for winning and not "waiting their turn". They said they faced the same kind of critics in 2008 after their world silver.
Both team have all the qualities you describe, each have things that the other don't have, and that doesn't necessarily make one team better than the other but most likely who is going to be the better team on the D-Day. You thought V/M was going to come back and had it easy for 2 years ? At first it looked like it right ? But it's not easy on the long term to beat an explosive young talent, just like V/M were 10 years ago. Ask Domnina/Shabalin or Belbin/Agosto, they'll tell you that about Vancouver when 2 very young teams beat them.
EDIT : by the way, we should let all the team push the boundaries. Ice Dance can be sometimes a bit rigid. It's nice to see an FD with dissonant music, a hip-hop SD to prince or Latin SD to rock and pop. There should be no limit in Ice Dance.
I absolutely hate the Ed Sheeran SD as well, and to me it's not anywhere on the same level as V/M SD (which I know isn't exactly traditional Latin either) I just don't think Latin is something P/C do well. OTOH I will watch P/C stunning FD any time all the time
As far as I am concerned, less than 30 days away from the OG, the arguments over whether both of these SD are Latin, is moot. The judges clearly love both and have rewarded them accordingly.
deleted - double post
My youngest son loves both SD's so based on that, I am happy. Poor kid has been watching a lot of skating this year and that he at least like the SD music is a bonus. They are well skated, well choreographed and refined.
If only I could get him to jump onboard and love the FD's too...
Give it time - just keep making him watch.
I just watched VM's Free program and I appreciate the changes for competition purposes. BUT I HATE the changes. I loved the ending to the free program. It tells a strong story. And whoever mentioned the falling part in the program, THAT is what got me in this free program. When I saw the Autumn competition for the first time (youtube), I was quite underwhelmed and really mind-boggled that they would have chosen this song in an Olympic year.
But I was there for their Skate Canada debut of the program and I have to say I was not looking forward to it. I have been an AVID VM fan for nearly a decade and have been mesmerized by every program and I was not looking forward to this program at the competition. However, when they skated it, I don't know, something got me. Their connection to the music and to each other drew me in once again. And when it ended in tragedy with that soft falling movement where Scott caught her twice....OMGOSH I loved it.
Now this program has become the antithesis of what I loved about it. I still enjoy it. I just don't love it as I previously did. Plus, where she does the stand up lift/move (whatever it is), it doesn't quite have the same timed effect it did with the previously choreographed music.
I'm sad. But I really do hope it helps them to win.
As for P/C, I love them as well. Besides VM I think they are my second fave this season. I have to say I don't like their SD very much. It seems they don't enjoy it and seems very forced. As for their long, as fluid as it is, I don't see the strength technically in this program. It's a good program, but I don't think it is anything spectacular. Unfortunately I wish everyone skated to an amazingly choreographed program at the Olympics so everyone could enjoy it for the sheer enjoyment of the program, and the competition of who wins, would just be the cherry on the top.
Hi! Just wanted to say that you have taken some of my fave VM photographs over the years, so it's nice to "see" you again, and hope to see some more pics of yours some day.
As for the "death" choreography, I agree with whoever said earlier that it will probably reappear in future program. It was too good to not be seen again.
Fascinating. While I prefer the V/M programs personally ('cause, yup, I am one of their ubers), I think P/C look like they are having the time of the lives in their SD this season and not forced in any way.
As I've said before in the Dance Hall thread, we're a funny bunch, we ID fans
I personally feel like they don't enjoy the dance. As a dancer myself comparatively to ice dance, some dances you enjoy and throw yourself in and it becomes a part of you. It's in your blood. Not so much with P/C's SD.
Hi sap5! Long time no post huh? I know, I've been MIA for several years due to a combination of life, moving away from being an uber FS travel fangirl, and just not having as much invested in the chat here. Plus, with it being subscriptions, I kind of stopped coming on here.
Thank you for the compliments on the photographs. I have hung up my photography bug as well, at least right now. I an a perfectionist and I wasn't getting any better at it as it would have consumed most of my time.
I hope so to the other choreography. I loved that ending. Though i do think that Scott needs to ream on Tessa less when she 'falls back' into his arms. The last two or three competitions it looks like she's going to get whiplash from it. LOL.
I firmly believe that politics determined one gold medal for V/M and one for D/W, but am not convinced that politics predetermined last year's worlds results, or will determine this year's Olympics results. V/M and D/W were with Zoueva for years, and she's got lots of clout - and it just makes sense that she would want each of her top pair's to get a GM - and have had that intention for some time. The programs certainly were designed to favor V/M in 2010 and D/W in 2014.
IMO V&M are superior skaters to P/C, but P/C have the superior program.
I really do hope it comes down to how the teams skate on the day(s).
Fair enough. We all see different things - no question about that!