Virtue, Moir hope revamped programs will lift them to Olympic gold

NorthernDancers

Well-Known Member
Messages
361
Ratings
708
I would start by separating elements from the choreography of the program - not that they're not related, just that it's choreography between the elements and the connecting steps that I'm referring to when I say that Papadakis/Cizeron's program is simpler.

I think the answer that question is pretty simple (ironically), it's that most teams are not good enough to do what the French do. The French movement on the ice is so smooth that they can take a simple move and make it look good in a way that other teams cannot and because of that every moment of the program is important and accentuated. To my way of thinking it's not necessarily better or worse then Virtue/Moir's style of movement, it's just different. But this is also a sport which means that we're supposed to attempt to quantify differences in difficulty, and award increased difficulty with higher scores.
Excellent post. There is no question that P/C have a very beautiful FD, and their run of the blade and flow is exceptional. But comparing the 2 top teams, looking element for element for difficulty, quality, speed, balance of work between the partners, complexity and variety in steps, amount of time in dance holds instead of side by side, how the elements and choreo express the chosen music (not whether or not we like the music they chose), V/M are a step above. By this criteria, which is what IJS specifies, V/M have an edge. The FD is much closer. But the SD is no contest in my mind. V/M are simply in a world of their own. P/C should be getting a music deduction for pretending Ed Shearen is Latin. It's not Latin. They aren't even trying to meet the criteria. I know they don't like skating to Latin, they said so themselves, but this feels like a big middle finger at the choice for the SD. And their moves are not Latin. V/M are pushing boundaries with rock, but there is no way anyone can say what they are doing is not Latin. Their SD is simply outstanding. Right up there with Prince from last year.

Judges will be judges, politics will be politics. But skaters know. When reporters ask other former and current ice dancers around the world which team is better, they almost always say V/M. P/C are beautiful, and V/M are in a league of their own, the best of all time.
 

maya1985

Well-Known Member
Messages
309
Ratings
888
P/C should be getting a music deduction for pretending Ed Shearen is Latin. It's not Latin. They aren't even trying to meet the criteria. I know they don't like skating to Latin, they said so themselves, but this feels like a big middle finger at the choice for the SD. And their moves are not Latin.
:watch:
The SD of Gabriella and Guillaume respects all the rules ... they meet all the criteria ;)

Judges will be judges, politics will be politics. But skaters know. When reporters ask other former and current ice dancers around the world which team is better, they almost always say V/M.
Is it the new criteria?:D All skaters have the right to have their preference (and to say it or not), it does not prove that one couple is "better" than the other ...

Thanks anyway for recognizing that their FD is beautiful:)
 

skatfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,063
Ratings
2,611
But the SD is no contest in my mind. V/M are simply in a world of their own. P/C should be getting a music deduction for pretending Ed Shearen is Latin. It's not Latin. They aren't even trying to meet the criteria. I know they don't like skating to Latin, they said so themselves, but this feels like a big middle finger at the choice for the SD. And their moves are not Latin. V/M are pushing boundaries with rock, but there is no way anyone can say what they are doing is not Latin.
Everyone has their own opinion, but here are some facts to consider: top Latin ballroom dancers are using modern “non-Latin” songs in competition. It is Latin to do this.

Btw, how it is ok to use rock to “push boundaries” while P&C can’t use a modern song?

The P&C dance is Latin - and is getting better as the season progresses. Guillaume in particular looks way better, and the scores show it. I think they can push it even more. Maybe a couple of more world record scores to come.
 

Anyasnake

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,100
Ratings
2,732
Excellent post. There is no question that P/C have a very beautiful FD, and their run of the blade and flow is exceptional. But comparing the 2 top teams, looking element for element for difficulty, quality, speed, balance of work between the partners, complexity and variety in steps, amount of time in dance holds instead of side by side, how the elements and choreo express the chosen music (not whether or not we like the music they chose), V/M are a step above. By this criteria, which is what IJS specifies, V/M have an edge. The FD is much closer. But the SD is no contest in my mind. V/M are simply in a world of their own. P/C should be getting a music deduction for pretending Ed Shearen is Latin. It's not Latin. They aren't even trying to meet the criteria. I know they don't like skating to Latin, they said so themselves, but this feels like a big middle finger at the choice for the SD. And their moves are not Latin. V/M are pushing boundaries with rock, but there is no way anyone can say what they are doing is not Latin. Their SD is simply outstanding. Right up there with Prince from last year.

Judges will be judges, politics will be politics. But skaters know. When reporters ask other former and current ice dancers around the world which team is better, they almost always say V/M. P/C are beautiful, and V/M are in a league of their own, the best of all time.
It's a bit odd for me to read how many critics their SD are getting when meeting all the criterias. This is ballroom latin, not proper latin, otherwise, both teams would have been told to get new SDs. But V/M are "pushing boundaries" with rock, and P/C are giving the middle finger with pop music ? which actually has a tropical vide to it (and the second song : go watch the clip video here they are dancing a rumba - and it's beautiful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp-EO5I60KA ). Both team are pushing boundaries, and a lot of others too. It gives a wider range to all the SDs. I've never seen so much diversity in Latin SDs, and I love both.
I understand you are biased, it's absolutely okay, but let's not pretend that the main rival are doing everything wrong, it won't give anyone the gold in advance.
V/M and P/C don't compare in a way for that "who is better" category because V/M entered Senior in 2006. P/C 7 years later. Give them a bit of time and challenges. No need to put down a team that is much younger on the senior ranks. V/M had like 11 years to prove themselves, P/C had less than 4 since they've been discovered. Actually both have had similar path : an "unexpected" (in Ice Dance terms) rise to the top. I remember in 2015 V/M defending P/C because they were getting criticized for winning and not "waiting their turn". They said they faced the same kind of critics in 2008 after their world silver.

Both team have all the qualities you describe, each have things that the other don't have, and that doesn't necessarily make one team better than the other but most likely who is going to be the better team on the D-Day. You thought V/M was going to come back and had it easy for 2 years ? At first it looked like it right ? But it's not easy on the long term to beat an explosive young talent, just like V/M were 10 years ago. Ask Domnina/Shabalin or Belbin/Agosto, they'll tell you that about Vancouver when 2 very young teams beat them.

EDIT : by the way, we should let all the team push the boundaries. Ice Dance can be sometimes a bit rigid. It's nice to see an FD with dissonant music, a hip-hop SD to prince or Latin SD to rock and pop. There should be no limit in Ice Dance.
 
Last edited:

muffinplus

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,020
Ratings
1,198
I absolutely hate the Ed Sheeran SD as well, and to me it's not anywhere on the same level as V/M SD (which I know isn't exactly traditional Latin either) I just don't think Latin is something P/C do well. OTOH I will watch P/C stunning FD any time all the time
 

kittysk8ts

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,485
Ratings
3,589
As far as I am concerned, less than 30 days away from the OG, the arguments over whether both of these SD are Latin, is moot. The judges clearly love both and have rewarded them accordingly.
 

Twilight1

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,292
Ratings
4,424
My youngest son loves both SD's so based on that, I am happy. Poor kid has been watching a lot of skating this year and that he at least like the SD music is a bonus. They are well skated, well choreographed and refined.

If only I could get him to jump onboard and love the FD's too...
 
Thread starter #72

skatingguy

Golden Team
Messages
3,625
Ratings
4,836
My youngest son loves both SD's so based on that, I am happy. Poor kid has been watching a lot of skating this year and that he at least like the SD music is a bonus. They are well skated, well choreographed and refined.

If only I could get him to jump onboard and love the FD's too...
Give it time - just keep making him watch. :D
 

jayta

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,004
Ratings
86
I just watched VM's Free program and I appreciate the changes for competition purposes. BUT I HATE the changes. I loved the ending to the free program. It tells a strong story. And whoever mentioned the falling part in the program, THAT is what got me in this free program. When I saw the Autumn competition for the first time (youtube), I was quite underwhelmed and really mind-boggled that they would have chosen this song in an Olympic year.

But I was there for their Skate Canada debut of the program and I have to say I was not looking forward to it. I have been an AVID VM fan for nearly a decade and have been mesmerized by every program and I was not looking forward to this program at the competition. However, when they skated it, I don't know, something got me. Their connection to the music and to each other drew me in once again. And when it ended in tragedy with that soft falling movement where Scott caught her twice....OMGOSH I loved it.

Now this program has become the antithesis of what I loved about it. I still enjoy it. I just don't love it as I previously did. Plus, where she does the stand up lift/move (whatever it is), it doesn't quite have the same timed effect it did with the previously choreographed music.

I'm sad. But I really do hope it helps them to win.

As for P/C, I love them as well. Besides VM I think they are my second fave this season. I have to say I don't like their SD very much. It seems they don't enjoy it and seems very forced. As for their long, as fluid as it is, I don't see the strength technically in this program. It's a good program, but I don't think it is anything spectacular. Unfortunately I wish everyone skated to an amazingly choreographed program at the Olympics so everyone could enjoy it for the sheer enjoyment of the program, and the competition of who wins, would just be the cherry on the top.
 

sap5

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,553
Ratings
4,422
I just watched VM's Free program and I appreciate the changes for competition purposes. BUT I HATE the changes. I loved the ending to the free program. It tells a strong story. And whoever mentioned the falling part in the program, THAT is what got me in this free program. When I saw the Autumn competition for the first time (youtube), I was quite underwhelmed and really mind-boggled that they would have chosen this song in an Olympic year.

But I was there for their Skate Canada debut of the program and I have to say I was not looking forward to it. I have been an AVID VM fan for nearly a decade and have been mesmerized by every program and I was not looking forward to this program at the competition.
Hi! Just wanted to say that you have taken some of my fave VM photographs over the years, so it's nice to "see" you again, and hope to see some more pics of yours some day. :)

As for the "death" choreography, I agree with whoever said earlier that it will probably reappear in future program. It was too good to not be seen again.
 

kittysk8ts

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,485
Ratings
3,589
As for P/C, I love them as well. Besides VM I think they are my second fave this season. I have to say I don't like their SD very much. It seems they don't enjoy it and seems very forced.
Fascinating. While I prefer the V/M programs personally ('cause, yup, I am one of their ubers), I think P/C look like they are having the time of the lives in their SD this season and not forced in any way.

As I've said before in the Dance Hall thread, we're a funny bunch, we ID fans :)
 

jayta

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,004
Ratings
86
Fascinating. While I prefer the V/M programs personally ('cause, yup, I am one of their ubers), I think P/C look like they are having the time of the lives in their SD this season and not forced in any way.

As I've said before in the Dance Hall thread, we're a funny bunch, we ID fans :)
I personally feel like they don't enjoy the dance. As a dancer myself comparatively to ice dance, some dances you enjoy and throw yourself in and it becomes a part of you. It's in your blood. Not so much with P/C's SD.
 

jayta

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,004
Ratings
86
Hi! Just wanted to say that you have taken some of my fave VM photographs over the years, so it's nice to "see" you again, and hope to see some more pics of yours some day. :)

As for the "death" choreography, I agree with whoever said earlier that it will probably reappear in future program. It was too good to not be seen again.
Hi sap5! Long time no post huh? I know, I've been MIA for several years due to a combination of life, moving away from being an uber FS travel fangirl, and just not having as much invested in the chat here. Plus, with it being subscriptions, I kind of stopped coming on here.

Thank you for the compliments on the photographs. I have hung up my photography bug as well, at least right now. I an a perfectionist and I wasn't getting any better at it as it would have consumed most of my time. :)

I hope so to the other choreography. I loved that ending. Though i do think that Scott needs to ream on Tessa less when she 'falls back' into his arms. The last two or three competitions it looks like she's going to get whiplash from it. LOL.
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,260
Ratings
9,498
I think you could switch the names in your post and it would be (almost) equally true. :)
I firmly believe that politics determined one gold medal for V/M and one for D/W, but am not convinced that politics predetermined last year's worlds results, or will determine this year's Olympics results. V/M and D/W were with Zoueva for years, and she's got lots of clout - and it just makes sense that she would want each of her top pair's to get a GM - and have had that intention for some time. The programs certainly were designed to favor V/M in 2010 and D/W in 2014.

IMO V&M are superior skaters to P/C, but P/C have the superior program.

I really do hope it comes down to how the teams skate on the day(s).
 

kittysk8ts

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,485
Ratings
3,589
I personally feel like they don't enjoy the dance. As a dancer myself comparatively to ice dance, some dances you enjoy and throw yourself in and it becomes a part of you. It's in your blood. Not so much with P/C's SD.
Fair enough. We all see different things - no question about that!
 
Messages
25
Ratings
25
Excellent post. There is no question that P/C have a very beautiful FD, and their run of the blade and flow is exceptional. But comparing the 2 top teams, looking element for element for difficulty, quality, speed, balance of work between the partners, complexity and variety in steps, amount of time in dance holds instead of side by side, how the elements and choreo express the chosen music (not whether or not we like the music they chose), V/M are a step above. By this criteria, which is what IJS specifies, V/M have an edge. The FD is much closer. But the SD is no contest in my mind. V/M are simply in a world of their own.
This pro VM propaganda does not work at all. I read that on all pro V/M sites. The truth is V/M are highly talented but their skating skills are not at the level of P/C's. The PCS scores this season are extremely clear. Look to them

P/C should be getting a music deduction for pretending Ed Shearen is Latin. It's not Latin. They aren't even trying to meet the criteria. I know they don't like skating to Latin, they said so themselves, but this feels like a big middle finger at the choice for the SD.
Before talking about deducting points to P/C, you should rather read and moreover understand the ISU rules! This season SD is not about latin music but rhumba and samba rhythms. And it turns out rhumba and samba rhythms widely inspired many music composers to create very different styles of music. If you think samba and rhumba is latin music only then you have no idea whatsoever about the diversity of the musical creation! Please listen to Deezer, go to concerts! Do something! So YES, Ed Sheeran's shape of you fulfils 100% the ISU requirements! And it's a very nice, modern and popular samba/rhumba music. This great music choice was submitted by Chris Dean himself. Chris Dean!!! You know him? This highly talented skater, olympic champion in 1984 with Jane Torvill dancing a fantastic rhumba!! Would you suggest Chris Dean, with his talent as ice dancer and now as choreographer, would dare choreographing a short dance not compliant with the ISU rules?????

Judges will be judges, politics will be politics.
Yeah! We had more than enough politics and dirty work last season! The culmination of this dirty work was Helsinki. Since then, strangely enough, the scores are fully in sync with the actual performances as we can see this season. No more technical elements with crazy GOEs from -2 up to +3!!

But skaters know. When reporters ask other former and current ice dancers around the world which team is better, they almost always say V/M.
Really??? Who are these "current ice dancers around the world"?? We wanna know! LOL.
 
Last edited:

yurokis40

Well-Known Member
Messages
346
Ratings
303
I think they will win, they seem to have the same fire and intensity that they had in Vancouver, those skates were memorable , plus I am sure marie france and Patrice are on their side, the French are lucky they came to Canada to benefit from all that expertise, if they had stayed IN Lyon they would probably be languishing in 12th place and skating to crap like woodkid.
 

chapis

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,871
Ratings
5,237
This pro VM propaganda does not work at all. I read that on all pro V/M sites. The truth is V/M are highly talented but their skating skills are not at the level of P/C's. The PCS scores this season are extremely clear. Look to them


Before talking about deducting points to P/C, you should rather read and moreover understand the ISU rules! This season SD is not about latin music but rhumba and samba rhythms. And it turns out rhumba and samba rhythms widely inspired many music composers to create very different styles of music. If you think samba and rhumba is latin music only then you have no idea whatsoever about the diversity of the musical creation! Please listen to Deezer, go to concerts! Do something! So YES, Ed Sheeran's shape of you fulfils 100% the ISU requirements! And it's a very nice, modern and popular samba/rhumba music. This great music choice was submitted by Chris Dean himself. Chris Dean!!! You know him? This highly talented skater, olympic champion in 1984 with Jane Torvill dancing a fantastic rhumba!! Would you suggest Chris Dean, with his talent as ice dancer and now as choreographer, would dare choreographing a short dance not compliant with the ISU rules?????


Yeah! We had more than enough politics and dirty work last season! The culmination of this dirty work was Helsinki. Since then, strangely enough, the scores are fully in sync with the actual performances as we can see this season. No more technical elements with crazy GOEs from -2 up to +3!!


Really??? Who are these "current ice dancers around the world"?? We wanna know! LOL.
This seasons is not about rhumba and samba rhythms, it is about latin rhythms. Rhumba and samba are among latin rhythms.
 

IloveFS

Active Member
Messages
279
Ratings
262
I want to believe that the team that skates the best in the short dance and the free dance will win at the Olympics. Virtue and Moir seem to have gained momentum since the Grand Prix final with error free programs. However, PC have made mistakes at each competition since GP Final. The judges, though, seem to be ignoring the errors. In my view, the edge goes to VM because they can deal with the Olympic pressure. PC have yet to deal with Olympic pressure and I'm not sure she has the mental toughness that Virtue has.
 
Messages
25
Ratings
25
This seasons is not about rhumba and samba rhythms, it is about latin rhythms. Rhumba and samba are among latin rhythms.
Yeah, absolutely. And the ISU talks about the rhythm and never about the music style (see the ISU official communication)! A latin rhythm can be translated into different flavours of music styles. Shape of you is not a latin style music imHo though it's pure latin rhythm.

REQUIREMENTS FOR SHORT DANCE SEASON 2017/18

  1. 3.1. Rhythms

    Rule 709, paragraph 1.a) provides that rhythm(s) and/or theme(s) are selected by the Ice Dance Technical Committee annually for the season. For the season 2017/18, the following Rhythms were selected.

    Junior and Senior: Any number of the following Latin American Rhythms:

    Cha Cha, Rhumba, Samba, Mambo, Meringue, Salsa, Bachata and any closely related Latin American Rhythms

    Senior:

    The Pattern Dance Element shall be skated to any of the Latin American Rhythms and must be in the style of the chosen rhythm, with the range of temp: 172 – 180 beats per minute. The Tempo of the music throughout the Pattern Dance Element must be constant.
 
Messages
25
Ratings
25
Are PCS fixed, or can they change if you change your choreography to better show the criteria?
Sure, parts of the PCS can change, if your choreography changes lead to a better interpretation the music or you're better in sync with the music timing. Now for skating skills, it's a different story and it's a bit more tricky imHo.
 

sap5

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,553
Ratings
4,422
Sure, parts of the PCS can change, if your choreography changes lead to a better interpretation the music or you're better in sync with the music timing. Now for skating skills, it's a different story and it's a bit more tricky imHo.
It's interesting, because I think that VM have made quite a few changes to make the criteria valued in the skating skills mark easier to see.
 
Last edited:
Messages
25
Ratings
25
It's interesting, because I think that VM have made quite a few changes to make the criteria valued in the skating skills mark easier to see.
Yep and they were right to do so. There were so far behind P/C at all Grand Prix and GPF in terms of PCS. Now, getting the top PCS mark is a long way to go as we can see in this short summary below regarding the FD programs:

___________P/C___V/M
GP Canada_________18
GP China____14
GP Japan___________6
GP France___21
GPF_________24____15
Europeans___28


Will the last V/M changes be enough? We'll know at WG. But there's also something else to be considered: As they always did in the last 3 seasons, P/C has been working tremendously and has been improving continuously their programs since the beginning of the Olympics season. While V/M reworked several parts of their FD, P/C focused on all step sequences, which are the most critical elements in terms of BV and points/GOE.
The competition will be exciting in South Korea.
 
Last edited:

Carolla5501

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,113
Ratings
3,425
I feel like it's a repeat of 4 years ago in that for the games V/M don't have one of their best programs. Last time lots of blame on the coaches favoring D/W. that can't be true this time. Maybe they will win but a better program from Day 1 would have made it easier.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)