UPDATED: Jason Brown to Brian Orser (official)

[aftershocks]

This is a great move but at 23, with absolutely no quad in competition, his chances of getting a consistent quad have maybe gone up from 10% to what? 20%?

I'm quoting you from a few pages earlier, as it has been skeptically discussed by many about Jason's chances of mastering quads.

The proof will be in the pudding as we see the ingredients of the upcoming season unfold. Nothing is for certain, but I must say I find some of the naysaying curious, especially from those who have never attempted a quad but seem to know so much about Jason's future prospects in regard to quads. In fact, Jason can and has landed quads (even at least one that was very close in competition but was not ratified). Therefore, it's presumptuous I think to look askance at his chances of consistently mastering at least one or two. It's not impossible.

We might also take into consideration Jason's own words regarding his desire to make a change. It's not all about landing quads. Figure skating is not just about the jumps. But as far as knowing how to jump, and being a phenomenal artist, Jason is and has been for some time a complete, all-around skater. He's not far away from achieving his goals. And let's remember(even though it's hard to wrap our heads around the concept): It's the journey that matters most.

He was very injured and did well to skate as well as he did.

Well that's too bad Chan was injured in 2010. He certainly seemed nervous. He did well in the standings partly due to judges gifting him. Johnny Weir should have at least placed higher than both Chan and Lambiel.

 

[Yazmeen]

I know you’re being snarky, but this is actually true. It’s just an excuse for the greedy top 3 countries to win more medals and boast about themselves more, which is why it annoys some people that skaters like Adam and Mirai who did poorly by US standards can get fake props like “he/she/they are an Olympic medalist!”. Say what you will about Tim G. but he did skate well enough to be the 3rd best man at the Olys. Adam did not. Facts are facts America.

Exactly when did I bring Tim Goebel into this???? And I stand by my comment - and your post frankly just reinforced what I was saying.

 

[aftershocks]

Lots of gripes in figure skating. Start a campaign to get those rules changed. ISU and IOC boneheadedly do as they please, eh. The skaters have to deal with it. And so do the fans, who as a whole will absolutely never agree on anything anyway, even though we expect TPTB to get on the ball and concur with our individual viewpoints.

Frankly team competition at the Olympics is what it is, and it was more fun earlier this year than it was in Sochi, IMO. It sure ain't perfect, but it also ain't the most pressing challenge TPTB need to reconsider and revamp.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

^^ Patrick Chan is an exceptional skater and an influential champion, but he did not always deliver when it counted. He did not get in the medals at his first Olympics in Vancouver (he reportedly was feeling the pressure in his home country). Chan was certainly highly regarded and talented enough to win in that deep 2010 field but he stumbled (after unfortunately having experienced foot-in-mouth disease at 2009 Worlds in Los Angeles, a time when Chan should have been solidifying his rep with the judges and his talent advantage over the likes of challengers such as Evan Lysacek, U.S.'s favored 'can-do' wonder boy who was being pushed by his fed over the more naturally gifted but unfortunately self-conflicted Johnny Weir).

We all sadly remember what happened to Chan in Sochi 2014. The table was set with Hanyu having stumbled in his fp; and Chan was skating last. Unfortunately, Chan's amazing power to put on a clinic abandoned him, while the error yips (which the judges previously tended to mostly forgive) took over, leaving Chan with silver served on a silver platter. With only one mistake, Chan still had a strong chance to win OGM; with two mistakes, it would have been a draw between him & Hanyu yet still an outside chance for Chan to prevail; but with three strikes, Chan was down and out.

I stand by what I said. Getting a silver medal is still delivering. Maybe not delivering by what Chan could have done, but still delivering compared to the field.
My post was specifically meant to compare the body of work of the « choker » Patrick Chan versus the body of work of the so-consistant Brown. That’s the outrage.

 

[bardtoob]

And Tim Goebel got some help by Abt being underscored in the SP and then overdoing himself in the FS as a result.

And that all happened because Mishin's student was helped over his Raf and Frank's students. {{Shrugg}}

I would have expected Plushenko to be dropped like Browing was a decade earlier, but that didn't happen.

 

[aftershocks]

I stand by what I said. Getting a silver medal is still delivering. Maybe not delivering by what Chan could have done, but still delivering compared to the field.
My post was specifically meant to compare the body of work of the « choker » Patrick Chan versus the body of work of the so-consistant Brown. That’s the outrage.

^^ 'Outrage'??? Please relax and take it easy. If you check with the skaters themselves, I'm quite certain you will find how much genuine respect they have for each other. What's the point in comparing the career accomplishments of these two anyway? Obviously, you were conversing with someone else at random, but please save your 'outrage' for more serious catastrophes.

In any case, I wouldn't call Chan's error-strewn fp at 2014 Olympics "delivering compared to the field." His sp was good, but not his best either. Be assured though that Patrick Chan has moved on, and supported by his teammates and his own talent and courage, he's captured a 2018 Team OGM which is truly sweet. It may not be the individual OGM he sought over the course of his career, but at the end of the day he's got so much to be thankful for. I think Chan is happy to be out of the quad grind, even though the sport itself will be a bit diminished by the absence of his talent and presence on the scene.

Once again, not everyone will win an OGM, regardless of superior talent. Luck, timing, health, gumption under pressure, and a bunch of other factors are involved.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

I know not the place for this. But, the Oly team event is like the gymnastic team event. It encourages federations like Japan and Italy with resources and depth in a couple disciplines to develop more complete programs. This strengthens the ISU. After last year there is no reason (except for sponsorship) a European grand prix event could not be held in Italy rather than France.

 

[Japanfan]

Rippon did not win an Olympic medal, as a team member he got just the US team bronze medal.

The team event was an Olympic event. Rippon and everyone else who medaled in the event therefore got an Olympic medal.

 

[Japanfan]

Be assured though that Patrick Chan has moved on, and supported by his teammates and his own talent and courage, he's captured a 2018 Team OGM which is truly sweet. It may not be the individual OGM he sought, but at the end of the day he's got so much to be thankful for.

He has said in interviews that it was the team Gold he was after. Many of the 2018 team members competed in the 2014 team event, and they made a pact there to win Gold in 2018.

Patrick would have known he was not in the running for an individual medal, barring perhaps an outside chance at bronze should others falter.

I think Chan is happy to be out of the quad grind, even though the sport itself will be a bit diminished by the absence of his talent and presence on the scene.

Yes, IMO Skate Canada put far too much pressure on him last season to lead and hold up the Canadian men.

He seems really happy living in Vancouver with his girlfriend (Liz Putnam) now. He has said they plan to open their skating school. He's also had a plethora of opportunities, such as having an ice wine named after him (happened some time ago).

 

[aftershocks]

Patrick would have known he was not in the running for an individual medal, barring perhaps an outside chance at bronze should others falter.

Obviously Patrick Chan knew he was far from being in the running for an individual OGM in Pyeongchang. My comment you highlight is intended to reference Patrick's initial overall career goal of winning an individual OGM at some point. We all know that Patrick had given up on that specific pursuit for 2018 Olympics. He spoke publicly about having shifted his priorities to capturing Team Gold with his Skate Canada teammates.

 

[mag]

Well that's too bad Chan was injured in 2010. He certainly seemed nervous. He did well in the standings partly due to judges gifting him. Johnny Weir should have at least placed higher than both Chan and Lambiel.

Please relax and take it easy.

I think you need to take your own advice. Johnny Weir did place higher than Chan in the short:

6 Johnny Weir United States82.1042.9039.207.907.457.907.808.150.0025
7 Patrick Chan Canada81.1241.4240.708.307.858.008.258.301.0024

He was behind in the long. They were almost tied technically, it wasn’t a surprise that Chan would be ahead in PCS. Overall Chan ended up 2.5 points about Weir. I highly doubt there was some great conspiracy to put Chan in 5th over Weir in 6th.

Oh, and yes, I am sure Chan was nervous. Most skaters are nervous at the Olympics, especially at their first Olympics and even more especially when it is in their home country. So what?

 

[Jaana]

The team event was an Olympic event. Rippon and everyone else who medaled in the event therefore got an Olympic medal.

Yes, the US team won the team Olympic bronze medal, but they did not get an Olympic medal; they got an Olympic team medal. The team members are not seen as Olympic medalists:

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00008908.htm = Rippon is only mentioned as getting the 10th place

In men´s skating there were only 3 Olympic medalists: Hanyu, Uno and Fernandez.

 

[skatfan]

I wouldn't consider Shae Lynn innovative based on Ashley Wagner's programs.

I would, based on Nathan Chen's SP this past season. I thought it was one of the best across all disciplines.

 

[skatfan]

Yes, the US team won the team Olympic bronze medal, but they did not get an Olympic medal; they got an Olympic team medal. The team members are not seen as Olympic medalists:

Each member of the team received a medal. They can wear them individually anytime they want! They are introduced in shows as Olympic medalists. Beyond that, pedantic people can wage war.

 

[RoseRed]

Yes, the US team won the team Olympic bronze medal, but they did not get an Olympic medal; they got an Olympic team medal. The team members are not seen as Olympic medalists:

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00008908.htm = Rippon is only mentioned as getting the 10th place

In men´s skating there were only 3 Olympic medalists: Hanyu, Uno and Fernandez.

Yes they DID get an Olympic medal. A team medal is an Olympic medal. Michael Phelps has 23 Olympic gold medals. All his relay medals, are Olympic medals. Aly Raisman is a six-time Olympic medalist. Her team event medals are still medals. No one says Sidney Crosby won and Olympic team medal, they just call him an Olympic gold medalist.

An Olympic medal for a team event is an Olympic medal. Seriously.

 

[aftershocks]

I think you need to take your own advice. Johnny Weir did place higher than Chan in the short:

6 Johnny Weir United States82.1042.9039.207.907.457.907.808.150.0025
7 Patrick Chan Canada81.1241.4240.708.307.858.008.258.301.0024

He was behind in the long. They were almost tied technically, it wasn’t a surprise that Chan would be ahead in PCS. Overall Chan ended up 2.5 points about Weir. I highly doubt there was some great conspiracy to put Chan in 5th over Weir in 6th.

Oh, and yes, I am sure Chan was nervous. Most skaters are nervous at the Olympics, especially at their first Olympics and even more especially when it is in their home country. So what?

Eh, hold your horsies ... My comment was not a slam on Chan for being nervous. To paraphrase Batman's The Joker (as played by Heath Ledger ) Why so sensitive?

And just because I matter-of-factly mentioned Johnny Weir in a sentence don't mean I need to calm down. From this vantage point, I'm realistic about past competitions and I'm able to honestly call it as I see across the board no matter who I favored emotionally at the time. 2010 was ages ago already, but yep it always seems like yesterday for true figure skating aficionados. Time in a bottle.

Anyway thanks @mag for pointing out that Johnny was given a very slight edge over Patrick in the 2010 Olympic sp. Johnny still deserved to be higher in both sp and fp. It's very debatable that Johnny was contained in sixth place in both programs. No need for a detailed rehash, but Johnny was not well-liked by either the U.S. fed or ISU judges. By being himself and often speaking out and speaking his mind to reporters, Johnny did not help himself politically. And then he made some questionable choices over the course of his career that didn't help his rep with judges either. As I said earlier, Johnny was a bit conflicted competitively for a variety of reasons, some self-inflicted. Galina should never have messed with his jump technique. Don't try to fix what ain't broken. Still, although Johnny was not at his peak in Vancouver, he skated well and he should have placed higher. It was a victory for Johnny even being there, since USFS would have preferred sending Ryan Bradley, but Johnny had come prepared to battle at 2010 U.S. Nationals and he persevered to make the Olympic team.

In the U.S. and internationally, there was just a huge depth of talent among the men, which continues to this day. As far as what happened with the placements at the 2010 Olympics, the writing was on the wall with U.S. fed fully backing Evan Lysacek, and there was apparent widespread sentimental support for Frank Carroll as his coach. Also, Evan did deliver his best workmanlike determined efforts at the Vancouver Olympics, sans the quad that he didn't need but was quite capable of landing. As far as 'conspiracy,' please find another go-to characterization to throw around. The placements were not a conspiracy, but they were definitely based on figure skating politics as much or more than they were based on how the skaters actually performed. As usual.

On the issue of Patrick Chan being so superior on PCS, that's subjective. Patrick surely had superior skating skills over everyone but even Patrick realized post-2010 that he desired to focus more on his artistic growth, especially with the example of dancer-on-ice extraordinaire, Jeremy Abbott, displaying his talent. In addition, there's no doubt that Johnny Weir was hugely inspirational to his generation of skaters as a very gifted artist on the ice, as well as an effortless technician at his best. And that's true no matter how many haters and naysayers continue to this day to look down on Johnny's rare skating talent. I mean seriously @mag, just ask Yuzuru Hanyu! It's conveniently forgotten and purposely overlooked just how much Yuzu, as a younger generation skater coming up behind Johnny and veteran compadres, was significantly inspired by Johnny's skating in more ways than one. And that's not debatable.

 

[aftershocks]

I wouldn't consider Shae Lynn innovative based on Ashley Wagner's programs.

I would, based on Nathan Chen's SP this past season. I thought it was one of the best across all disciplines.

Very true, and indeed Shae Lynn Bourne also brought a breath of fresh air to skating choreography with her innovative sp for Jeremy Abbott in the 2009 - 2010 season. That sp is unforgettable and iconic. It helped establish Shae Lynn as a talented up-and-coming choreographer. It's a shame that Jeremy was unable to win the 2010 Olympic gold medal over Evan, or at least make the podium in Vancouver. But that's the breaks.

I would also point out in response to @peibeck's comment, that the work Shae Lynn has done with Ashley Wagner has been quite fresh and exciting as a departure from the lyrical ice princess approach. Shae Lynn's aesthetic has brought more feminine sass and personality to competitive programs for ladies, which is much needed.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

^^ 'Outrage'??? Please relax and take it easy. If you check with the skaters themselves, I'm quite certain you will find how much genuine respect they have for each other. What's the point in comparing the career accomplishments of these two anyway? Obviously, you were conversing with someone else at random, but please save your 'outrage' for more serious catastrophes.

In any case, I wouldn't call Chan's error-strewn fp at 2014 Olympics "delivering compared to the field." His sp was good, but not his best either. Be assured though that Patrick Chan has moved on, and supported by his teammates and his own talent and courage, he's captured a 2018 Team OGM which is truly sweet. It may not be the individual OGM he sought over the course of his career, but at the end of the day he's got so much to be thankful for. I think Chan is happy to be out of the quad grind, even though the sport itself will be a bit diminished by the absence of his talent and presence on the scene.

Once again, not everyone will win an OGM, regardless of superior talent. Luck, timing, health, gumption under pressure, and a bunch of other factors are involved.

To be clear : you are entitled to your opinion, so am I. You are NOT entitled to telling how to react, furthermore coming from you, an intense poster...

 

[barbarafan]

Very true, and indeed Shae Lynn Bourne also brought a breath of fresh air to skating choreography with her innovative sp for Jeremy Abbott in the 2009 - 2010 season. That sp is unforgettable and iconic. It helped establish Shae Lynn as a talented up-and-coming choreographer. It's a shame that Jeremy was unable to win the 2010 Olympic gold medal over Evan, or at least make the podium in Vancouver. But that's the breaks.

I would also point out in response to @peibeck's comment, that the work Shae Lynn has done with Ashley Wagner has been quite fresh and exciting as a departure from the lyrical ice princess approach. Shae Lynn's aesthetic has brought more feminine sass and personality to competitive programs for ladies, which is much needed.

There has been several Shae Lynn programs that I liked. I think my fav. is Sendai & I was so glad he brought it back. I also loved Pina for Alaine Chartrand and a few of Keven reynolds programs

 

[aftershocks]

To be clear : you are entitled to your opinion, so am I. You are NOT entitled to telling how to react, furthermore coming from you, an intense poster...

That you take my opinionated posts as 'intense' is your impression. An impression to which you are certainly entitled.

The issue here I think is trying not to take oneself so seriously. No matter how opinionated I am and no matter how passionate I am about figure skating, I am able to take a step back and laugh at myself as well as at the fraught, frustrating, and exciting world of figure skating.

I think my reaction was fair re your getting so caught up you found it necessary to term another poster's juxtaposing Jason Brown's career vs Patrick Chan's career as an 'outrage.' I really don't see the need for such a comparison or juxtaposition in the first place. But I also don't get your sense of 'outrage' either.

 

[Yazmeen]

Yes they DID get an Olympic medal. A team medal is an Olympic medal. Michael Phelps has 23 Olympic gold medals. All his relay medals, are Olympic medals. Aly Raisman is a six-time Olympic medalist. Her team event medals are still medals. No one says Sidney Crosby won and Olympic team medal, they just call him an Olympic gold medalist.

An Olympic medal for a team event is an Olympic medal. Seriously.

Don't waste your time. Jaana and others here who dislike the team event will never consider it a "real" Olympic event. Especially if their favorite(s) either didn't medal in the team event or participate in it. The rationalizations among some here about how those medals aren't real medals border on ridiculous anymore.

 

[LilJen]

OMHolyG! You make it sound like Chan is a mid-tier skater compared to Jason Brown... Chan is his two first Olympics cycles always deliverd when it counted. That’s what make great champions... Wolrd champions, Olympic medalists, junior world champions, GP final champions...

I stand by what I said. Getting a silver medal is still delivering. Maybe not delivering by what Chan could have done, but still delivering compared to the field.
My post was specifically meant to compare the body of work of the « choker » Patrick Chan versus the body of work of the so-consistant Brown. That’s the outrage.

I didn't at all intend to imply that Chan was a choker or mid-tier skater. Just that he was QUITE inconsistent--and by that I mean falls, messy landings, pops--but he placed well because of his amazing skating skills making up for the mistakes. In contrast, Brown until recently was known for being super, super clean and consistent. He rarely missed until the last few years. You can debate as to whether it was because he was doing "simpler" triples or not, and you can debate the different approaches of "go for squeaky clean" or "go for all the content I might land", but you can't deny that Chan didn't do a ton of squeaky clean programs. Consistently on the podium and winning, yes, but not consistently skating clean programs in competition.

 

[mag]

The issue here I think is trying not to take oneself so seriously.

Hello pot, meet kettle.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

That you take my opinionated posts as 'intense' is your impression. An impression to which you are certainly entitled.

The issue here I think is trying not to take oneself so seriously. No matter how opinionated I am and no matter how passionate I am about figure skating, I am able to take a step back and laugh at myself as well as at the fraught, frustrating, and exciting world of figure skating.

I think my reaction was fair re your getting so caught up you found it necessary to term another poster's juxtaposing Jason Brown's career vs Patrick Chan's career as an 'outrage.' I really don't see the need for such a comparison or juxtaposition in the first place. But I also don't get your sense of 'outrage' either.

How can I politely tell you not to interfere between two persons discussing? Like, mind your own business? If I have an argument with someone, you can bring your opinion, but telling how to express or not express myself? If someone had to say something, that would have been LilJen and she just did it A1.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

I didn't at all intend to imply that Chan was a choker or mid-tier skater. Just that he was QUITE inconsistent--and by that I mean falls, messy landings, pops--but he placed well because of his amazing skating skills making up for the mistakes. In contrast, Brown until recently was known for being super, super clean and consistent. He rarely missed until the last few years. You can debate as to whether it was because he was doing "simpler" triples or not, and you can debate the different approaches of "go for squeaky clean" or "go for all the content I might land", but you can't deny that Chan didn't do a ton of squeaky clean programs. Consistently on the podium and winning, yes, but not consistently skating clean programs in competition.

Point heard, I understand what you mean.

 

[aftershocks]

How can I politely tell you not to interfere between two persons discussing? Like, mind your own business?

Not very politely apparently. (Psst, who minds their own business on FSU, I wonder )

Alas, Internet figure skating forums...

Hello pot, meet kettle.

Ah, once again your own personal impression of a fellow poster's tone and intention on an Internet forum. But what else is new(s).

I guess the 'pot-kettle-black' rap never gets old, for some people.

Hmmm, it seems about time to chill out and view some best hits vids of my fave skaters...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J61k2XjRryM Riverdance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtbZP688V9w Scent of Love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHvT3XiRTc Room Where it Happens
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dgn7LmUX9c The Question of U

Adam's 2015 breakthrough:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBcusUyB8zE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hvo-3yXvic Arrival of the Birds (France 2016)

Jeremy Abbott 2010 sp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jljuph8ISAQ
Jeremy's 2012 performances
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oeya_bPe53Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHbADOamI3s

 

[Tavi]

I keep coming to this thread to see if there’s anything new related to Jason’s move to Orser. For example, any word on his David Wilson program? Coachings? If so, I’d love to hear it. ?

 

[Japanfan]

Y es, the US team won the team Olympic bronze medal, but they did not get an Olympic medal; they got an Olympic team medal. The team members are not seen as Olympic medalists:

As others have pointed out, they did get an Olympic medal. Team members certainly are seen as Olympic medalists - because they are Olympic medalists.

I suppose one might argue that an individual medal has more meaning than a team medal because the members of a team may not all deliver equally strong performances. If skaters in three of the disciplines deliver, but the skater/skaters in the fourth does not/do not, the team could still win Gold. But it can go the other away as well - one poor performance can mean a team does not medal.

But I don't know whether a team medal means any less to skaters than an individual medal. As I posted previously in this thread or another, Patrick Chan said the Canadian skaters who participated in the team event in 2014 made a pact to win Gold in 2018. Team Canada was rather ecstatic about their gold medal.

 

[el henry]

I keep coming to this thread to see if there’s anything new related to Jason’s move to Orser. For example, any word on his David Wilson program? Coachings? If so, I’d love to hear it. ?

I agree, although I think this thread drift may be impossible to contain. (not to mention, I contributed)

But I'll keep returning in hopes of Jason news. Hope does spring eternal

 

[aftershocks]

I keep coming to this thread to see if there’s anything new related to Jason’s move to Orser. For example, any word on his David Wilson program? Coachings? If so, I’d love to hear it. ?

Yep, it's still the off-season, so once the big news that's been rumored is confirmed and the first flush of reaction occurs, threads such as these apparently meander endlessly. This one quite a bit more-so than usual, but all of them have meandered quite often in unaccountable ways. That's nothing new for FSU though. At least the New Programs thread seems to be staying on track thus far, but it's early yet.

As pertains to Jason, we know he's in Toronto now taking time to heal his ankle injury, and likely becoming acclimated to his new surroundings while making fast friends with all of his new training mates. I wouldn't expect we'll hear much more until Jason is able to begin training and starts getting choreo for a new fp. I wonder how often he'll be able to keep up with his vlog. It will be cool if he does a vlog with scenes of the best spots to visit around Toronto. Probably Jason's thread in Trash Can is the better place to look for updated news at this point.