U.S. Pairs 2018 - News & Updates, Part VIII

[aftershocks]

LOL, cross-posting from U.S. ladies thread:

...As far as cyclic changes re competitive results, go back in history and realize that U.S. pairs were the first NA team to land gold at Worlds after European dominance ended in the aftermath of WWII. Canada then followed in U.S. pairs' footsteps, but ultimately surpassed the U.S. in winning multiple Olympic gold medals and World medals, thanks largely to the legendary Barbara Wagner & Robert Paul. And this was before Belousova/Protopopov showed everyone how to skate two as one, and heralded in an era of Russian dominance in pairs that has slowed slightly but not abated...

you are bleak today

I’d image a more positive spin would be to compare it with dance, how the US started off in the mix, then lost lots of ground to European dominance, then came back strong and are currently amount the top.

Comparing it to pairs, who right up until SLC were still in the medal mix before Thelma and Louising it over a cliff, is too depressing a future to even contemplate for US ladies. US pairs: talk about digging yourself a hole that will take huge effort to climb out of!

Eh, you must not actually enjoy watching pairs that much, regardless of a country's medal cache. I'm a pairs fangirl regardless. And that's why I brought up U.S. pairs' changes of fortune. The fact is most 'what have you done for me lately' fans fail to recognize that historical perspectives are key in any sport. And that's excruciatingly true in figure skating for every discipline.

I disagree with your Thelma & Louising it analogy to characterize U.S. pairs fortunes, but sure it def has a nice twang to it and also a horrific existential dilemma kinda urgency. But lemme think of a better filmic analogy, cuz no U.S. pair in my memory has ever taken the 'over-and-out, there's no hope for the future' approach to competition, despite going on some bumpy thrill rides. Hmmm.... Give me a moment...

Meanwhile, have you checked out @clairecloutier's recent interview with Deanna & Nate? U.S. pairs will continue battling and never give up. None of them give two fcuks about what friggin' naysayers in the rest of the world think of them. Coming back from illness and injury, and building up recently-formed partnerships takes time. I personally don't care how things ultimately pan out over the course of the season placement and scoring-wise. I just know I'm going to enjoy watching U.S. pairs go to battle, while keeping fingers crossed they all stay healthy. Fcuk the political scoring and rep gift-giving that goes on. Regardless of what happens for U.S. pairs, the entire pairs discipline is the bomb, literally.

Ice dance discipline ain't shabby either. And historic U.S. ice dance reflections are always delightfully welcome!

ETA:
Okay, a better filmic analogy for U.S. pairs: A double feature of Goodfellas and Eat, Pray, Love. But of course the film analogy possibilities are endless. And I obviously have an Endless Love for pairs skating.

 

[pairskatingfan]

With the GP assignments released, who would be in the running for the SA host spot?

 

[RoseRed]

With the GP assignments released, who would be in the running for the SA host spot?

One would be to give Stellato/Bartholomay a 2nd spot (although they could also pick one up as a replacement possibly). I know from the recent interview that S/B consider it very important to compete a lot to raise their WS and it sounded like the USFS was on board with that, so that's a reason to go that route rather than spreading the wealth. They are the National bronze medalists after all. The 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th place teams all have 2 spots already, and 6 and 7 split.

They could also go with someone like Pfund/Santillan (8th at Nats). Or Lu/Mitrofanov who won Jr at Nats and have aged out of Jr. They have a higher SB than P/S.

The third option would be to go with one of the new teams if they show good results in the summer. There's Calalang/Johnson and Serafini/Tran (I don't think this is officially announced, but they're clearly training together from IG). I think this is less likely though.

My pick would be either Stellato/Bartholomay or Lu/Mitrofanov. Those make the most sense to me.

 

[happycamper2554]

One would be to give Stellato/Bartholomay a 2nd spot (although they could also pick one up as a replacement possibly). I know from the recent interview that S/B consider it very important to compete a lot to raise their WS and it sounded like the USFS was on board with that, so that's a reason to go that route rather than spreading the wealth. They are the National bronze medalists after all. The 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th place teams all have 2 spots already, and 6 and 7 split.

They could also go with someone like Pfund/Santillan (8th at Nats). Or Lu/Mitrofanov who won Jr at Nats and have aged out of Jr. They have a higher SB than P/S.

The third option would be to go with one of the new teams if they show good results in the summer. There's Calalang/Johnson and Serafini/Tran (I don't think this is officially announced, but they're clearly training together from IG). I think this is less likely though.

My pick would be either Stellato/Bartholomay or Lu/Mitrofanov. Those make the most sense to me.

Give it to Pfund and and Santillan. New blood and they were one unfortunate lift away from ranking higher at nationals or Calalang and Johnson, if they have an impressive.. Stellato and Bartholomay have not been that impressive in international competition. Let's get someone else in there. If we want more competition in pairs we can't just have our same old teams. Plus didn't Stellatto and Bartholomay get the host sspot last year.

 

[Rock2]

I'm in the Deanna/Nate camp, personally.

Pfund/Santillan seem to be improving although there always seems to be something with them that goes completely haywire. They don't seem to have the 3Tw yet, really. That missed lift at nationals * may * have cost them one placement (close) but they were 20 pts from moving up from 8th to 6th. That suggests to me they have a ways to go, still.

 

[Dobre]

Pretty much everyone at Nationals was one unfortunate something away from placing higher.

I think Stellato & Bartholomay are the clear favorites, but I would hope that they will give Lu & Mitrofanov the chance to show what they can do in the senior ranks this summer. And the other pairs teams as well, of course.

 

[RoseRed]

Give it to Pfund and and Santillan. New blood and they were one unfortunate lift away from ranking higher at nationals or Calalang and Johnson, if they have an impressive.. Stellato and Bartholomay have not been that impressive in international competition. Let's get someone else in there. If we want more competition in pairs we can't just have our same old teams. Plus didn't Stellatto and Bartholomay get the host sspot last year.

Calalang/Johnson would have to show good results this summer to earn it. When Cain/Leduc paired up, they got lots of USFS support (it seemed like), but they weren't getting a GP spot right off the bat. I think a 2-3 CS events would make more sense / be more likely.

Lu/Mitrofanov are the obvious choice if you want to get new blood in there imo. They were skating in juniors, and they still had a higher SB than Pfund/Santillan. And they're younger and Jr. Nat. Champs.

Stellato/Bartholomay are the National bronze medalists, skated at 4CC and Worlds, and are quite new, so still improving. It makes total sense for the USFS to want to support them. And there's the WS idea that they raised.

Best case scenario would be for S/B to pick up a 2nd spot as a replacement, since they're high on the list. Then L/M could get the host spot.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I say Stellato & Bartholomay get selected by an opening before SkAm needs to assign them.

BTW does Finland even have a pair they could enter?

 

[LilJen]

Re pairs camp: USFS has been doing pairs camps for several years now (my rink/club hosted a couple of them), but it's only more recently that they've had more 'star' coaches flown in to lend their expertise. I'm glad USFS is doing it. They need to keep investing in pairs and encourage compatible matchups.

 

[RoseRed]

I say Stellato & Bartholomay get selected by an opening before SkAm needs to assign them.

BTW does Finland even have a pair they could enter?

Not as far as anyone knows. Zero on the SB list.

 

[happycamper2554]

Pretty much everyone at Nationals was one unfortunate something away from placing higher.

I think Stellato & Bartholomay are the clear favorites, but I would hope that they will give Lu & Mitrofanov the chance to show what they can do in the senior ranks this summer. And the other pairs teams as well, of course.

I agree with you but they had a lift come down so they got zero base value on that. It's more then just slipping on a jump or another small mistake. I guess, I guess i'm the only one who doesn't see the Stellato and Bartholomay hype. Oh well to each their own

 

[aftershocks]

Okay, a better filmic analogy for U.S. pairs: A double feature of Goodfellas and Eat, Pray, Love. But of course the film analogy possibilities are endless. And I obviously have an Endless Love for pairs skating.

Which leads to some pairs program music possibilities perhaps...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGBQNyvlJB0&list=PLqJ02x7ZoysMGllVWVfW7z6wEoD5E78y6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUxE5LnhcjQ&list=PLNqXav-zy1m10pXdJEdHtYaDB45hDodwN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_R1R28kLM&list=PLkLimRXN6NKyI56cqO-hBgzNfe6JUpbq6

 

[Cleo1782]

I agree with you but they had a lift come down so they got zero base value on that. It's more then just slipping on a jump or another small mistake. I guess, I guess i'm the only one who doesn't see the Stellato and Bartholomay hype. Oh well to each their own

I don't think it's "hype" . S/B performed really well at Nationals to earn their bronze medal and were respectable at 4cc's and Worlds. Pfund/Santillian have their good points, but they aren't young and haven't shown much improvement in years. I am sure S/B will get picked up as alternates at another GP, but I wouldn't give the host spot to P/S. Maybe to Feng/Nyman or the junior champs? Or Calalang/Johnson if they show promise.

 

[her grace]

Stellato/Bartholomay are the National bronze medalists, skated at 4CC and Worlds, and are quite new, so still improving. It makes total sense for the USFS to want to support them. And there's the WS idea that they raised.

Here's what S/B specifically said about World Standings in @clairecloutier's interview.

Bartholomay: We felt we went and we did our job and we represented our country really well. Our skating order was tough, and pretty unfortunate. We skated third out of 28 very good teams.

Stellato: By our [World Standings] points–because we have no points–we were ranked 26th out of the 28 teams. When we drew third, I actually started crying. And everyone was trying to talk me off the ledge. But I told them, “Guys, I’m not stupid. They don’t give big scores in the beginning of the competition. That’s a well-known fact.” I felt like we were going into our short program trying to dig ourselves out of a ditch. Because we were so early. We skated a very nice program, we got a personal-best [score], which is amazing.

Skating early certainly didn't help S/B, but the result likely would not have changed if they had skated later. Every team that beat them had a higher Base Value, and Worlds was an amazingly well-skated event. S/B were going to have to be completely clean to have a chance. They weren't, making a small mistake on their throw. It was possible to qualify from the first warm-up group (Hocke/Blommaert who skated right after S/B did), but S/B's technical level and developing PCS didn't quite cut it at the top level. Of course, they need to keep competing and raise their WS, but improving their skating is the most important thing to focus on.

I think Stellato & Bartholomay are the clear favorites, but I would hope that they will give Lu & Mitrofanov the chance to show what they can do in the senior ranks this summer. And the other pairs teams as well, of course.

I agree, and I assume that's what USFS is doing by holding a TBD spot.

 

[Cleo1782]

Here's what S/B specifically said about World Standings in @clairecloutier's interview.



Skating early certainly didn't help S/B, but the result likely would not have changed if they had skated later. Every team that beat them had a higher Base Value, and Worlds was an amazingly well-skated event. S/B were going to have to be completely clean to have a chance. They weren't, making a small mistake on their throw. It was possible to qualify from the first warm-up group (Hocke/Blommaert who skated right after S/B did), but S/B's technical level and developing PCS didn't quite cut it at the top level. Of course, they need to keep competing and raise their WS, but improving their skating is the most important thing to focus on.



I agree, and I assume that's what USFS is doing by holding a TBD spot.

The throw didn't kill them at Worlds, the spin mistake did.......

 

[barbarafan]

Yes, it is Olivia. She has been training with Rafael for the past few years.

according to IG they have been in MTL for a week.Heading back now...at Ste Julie...maybe for choreo.????

 

[Stephanie]

I don't think it's "hype" . S/B performed really well at Nationals to earn their bronze medal and were respectable at 4cc's and Worlds. Pfund/Santillian have their good points, but they aren't young and haven't shown much improvement in years. I am sure S/B will get picked up as alternates at another GP, but I wouldn't give the host spot to P/S. Maybe to Feng/Nyman or the junior champs? Or Calalang/Johnson if they show promise.

Feng/Nyman are still JGP-eligible for this coming season

 

[Carolla5501]

I agree with you but they had a lift come down so they got zero base value on that. It's more then just slipping on a jump or another small mistake. I guess, I guess i'm the only one who doesn't see the Stellato and Bartholomay hype. Oh well to each their own

But you want to award a team you like who even you admit had a major error? It’s just different hype

 

[RoseRed]

FWIW, Meagan Duhamel said on TSL that she thinks it's very likely Deanna and Nate will get the TBD, unless they already have a 2nd spot through withdrawals or someone really proves themselves in the summer. But she thinks they have a good shot at getting a 2nd when someone withdraws.

 

[Cleo1782]

FWIW, Meagan Duhamel said on TSL that she thinks it's very likely Deanna and Nate will get the TBD, unless they already have a 2nd spot through withdrawals or someone really proves themselves in the summer. But she thinks they have a good shot at getting a 2nd when someone withdraws.

I believe they are first in line out of teams with only 1 assignment. The USFS probably assumes they will get one with withdrawals (Duhamel said Sui/Han were possibly still injured), but is keeping it for them just in case. I would assume that the junior champs have the best shot at it. P/S have already had two chances at the GP and placed poorly. Otherwise it would be a waiting game to see what Tran, Calalang/Johnson, or maybe Chelsea Liu and her new partner do ( but I believe they are junior eligible internationally still this year).

 

[happycamper2554]

But you want to award a team you like who even you admit had a major error? It’s just different hype

I want to give a new team a chance and they are next on the list barring a strong performance from a new summer team. Stellatto and Batholomay haven't shown me enough in the international competition they have done to earn the second grand prix. It doesn't have to be Pfund and Santillan. It could be anyone. Basically not counting Kayne and O'Shea and Castelli and Tran all of these pairs represented The USA on the grand prix last year. I want someone new, that's all. I feel like that is what the host spot should be used for.

 

[Cleo1782]

I want to give a new team a chance and they are next on the list barring a strong performance from a new summer team. Stellatto and Batholomay haven't shown me enough in the international competition they have done to earn the second grand prix. It doesn't have to be Pfund and Santillan. It could be anyone. Basically not counting Kayne and O'Shea and Castelli and Tran all of these pairs represented The USA on the grand prix last year. I want someone new, that's all. I feel like that is what the host spot should be used for.

But Pfund and Santillian have been to two GP's in 2015 and 2016. They wouldn't be 'new'. They got the host spot that Bartholomay and Donlan had to withdraw from at Skate America. They also got COC the next year. They aren't really next in line. TBH, I like P/S they just really were good coming out of the gate and haven't done much since. C/L only got one spot last year (after K/O wd) and Deanna and Nate only got one spot as well. Only D/F and K/K got two initial spots. C/T picked up one along the way to get 2. Spots were very slim for US teams last year and it's nice several teams got 2 this year. But based on being 3rd at Nationals last year, they deserve the host spot if we are being fair. C/L and D/F were below them at Nats and have 2. If not I would go with either a newly formed team or the junior champions. I know fields are depleted, but if Hicks, Wang, Alex J, etc got GP's a team that made the 4cc and eventually the World team should get 2.

 

[pairskatingfan]

From the looks of it, I think Stellato/ Bartholomay would be more likely to get picked as an injury replacement, so I bet that SA host spot will go to someone else.. either Pfund/Santillan, Liu/Mitrofonov, Calalang/Johnson, or Serifini/Tran... my bet is that it goes to whoever is the most ready, as no team seems to have a full upper edge on the others.

 

[Willin]

I think the thing about S/B is that while they’re not technically up there yet, they are pretty consistent compared to the other US pairs teams. So I think USFS would like to have them out there more.

I think they’re a great pair, but I don’t know how competitive they can actually be in this day and age of insane pair’s difficulty. I don’t think they’re the future of US Pair’s skating. Certainly it’s possible since older pairs do succeed, amd they do have incredible work ethic, but they are at a disadvantage with Stellato starting pairs so late.

 

[Cleo1782]

I think the thing about S/B is that while they’re not technically up there yet, they are pretty consistent compared to the other US pairs teams. So I think USFS would like to have them out there more.

I think they’re a great pair, but I don’t know how competitive they can actually be in this day and age of insane pair’s difficulty. I don’t think they’re the future of US Pair’s skating. Certainly it’s possible since older pairs do succeed, amd they do have incredible work ethic, but they are at a disadvantage with Stellato starting pairs so late.

I think some of the rule changes in regards to lifts and the spins may help them, but the lack of points for the throw quad will hurt them. I think if they just continue doing what they do better they could be competitive. Maybe put that sbs lutz in there. I don't think they are that far behind technically in the US. K/O only do one sbs triple, d/f can only do 1 sbs jump, and k/k certainly have their issues with sbs plus C/L try hard sbs but often (she) UR's them. C/L are probably have the weakest lifts of the bunch, so they might be hurt. K/O have the weakest twist. It will be interesting to see how the +5/-5 will effect teams. I mean K/K got positive GOE at Nats last year for their very flawed twist as did K/O. It will be exciting to see how things play out with the new rule changes.

 

[Dobre]

K/O only do one sbs triple, d/f can only do 1 sbs jump, and k/k certainly have their issues with sbs plus C/L try hard sbs but often (she) UR's them.

L&M have some growing to do and issues with their throw triple loop, but it is worth listing that they had 3T and 3S1L3S at Junior Worlds.

 

[Cleo1782]

L&M have some growing to do and issues with their throw triple loop, but it is worth listing that they had 3T and 3S1L3S at Junior Worlds.

Agreed their sbs jumps are great!!! They need a 3tw that is solid too, but they are very promising. I couldn't remember their exact layout, so thanks, but I remember being impressed.

I actually like Feng/Nyman better, but I think they are staying junior. Idk, maybe I just like him because of that silly USFS 'we get up' commercial we have all seen a million times.

 

[aftershocks]

Meagan Duhamel said on TSL that she thinks it's very likely Deanna and Nate will get the TBD

Duhamel is only guessing though, just like we are.

It will be exciting to see how things play out with the new rule changes.

And we can't ever count out the factor of favoritism and fs politics in how judges score, unfortunately.

 

[Cleo1782]

Duhamel is only guessing though, just like we are.




And we can't ever count out the factor of favoritism and fs politics in how judges score, unfortunately.

I think if I was betting I would say Deanna and Nate will probably pick up Finland due to the fact Sui/Han may be injured and Finland has no pair team. I think the USFS is just holding the spot in case. If I am looking at everything right they are #1 on the alternate list with only one GP. Of course a fed doesn't have to pick in order, but what would Finland have to lose by choosing them since they have no horse in the race? And it would be a relative open field for S/B to get critical points.

 

[happycamper2554]

I think if I was betting I would say Deanna and Nate will probably pick up Finland due to the fact Sui/Han may be injured and Finland has no pair team. I think the USFS is just holding the spot in case. If I am looking at everything right they are #1 on the alternate list with only one GP. Of course a fed doesn't have to pick in order, but what would Finland have to lose by choosing them since they have no horse in the race? And it would be a relative open field for S/B to get critical points.

Isn't Finland reserving a tbd spot in pairs? Correct me if i'm wrong, of course. but I thought i saw that on the list.