U.S. Pairs 2018-19 season - News & Updates, Part IX

I feel like this whole BOW thing is increasingly making nationals more and more pointless. Or least the way the USFSA is using it when picking teams.

It seems instead of simply considering previous competition results along with the nationals results they're just looking at previous competition results and going off of that alone regardless of what happened at nationals.
 
NAOTMAA said:
I feel like this whole BOW thing is increasingly making nationals more and more pointless. Or least the way the USFSA is using it when picking teams.

It seems instead of simply considering previous competition results along with the nationals results they're just looking at previous competition results and going off of that alone regardless of what happened at nationals.
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Realistically, if we had two teams going to Worlds instead of just one berth, do you think the USFSA would have ignored the results and left D/F off the team? It's one thing when you can send two teams, because you're banking on at least one of them doing well enough to maintain two spots; it's a whole different conversation when you are sending one team with a lot of pressure on their shoulders to regain a second spot.

Hypothetically, if we had two spots for Worlds, I think the USFSA would have gone with C/L and D/F, and then named K/O and S-D/B as alternates ahead of the Knierems. I don't think they would have gone with S-D/B as 1st alternates ahead of K/O simply because the goal would have been to maintain two spots and that would not happen if C/L had to pull out and we were left with D/F and S-D/B as the team. In a scenario where we have two teams going to Worlds, they might have even stuck with the podium results and given the 3rd 4CCs spot to S-D/B over K/O, especially if they decided to name them as 1st alternates for Worlds.

The problem is, we only have that 1 spot for Worlds, so the priority has to be regaining a 2nd spot. I just don't see how D/F have demonstrated that they have the technical elements (mostly SBS triples, but let's also not forget SBS 2a) to be in that conversation. And I say this as someone who loved D/F before Haven's injury and still love them - when they're on they're sublime - but I'm also a pragmatist.
 
^^^^
Well when I wrote my post I was thinking of the Knierems. The rest of the teams didn't really enter my head :shuffle:

Considering their performance at nationals and the injury to Chris's wrist I don't think they should be included on any list even if it is only as 2nd alternate. To me their inclusion at all tells me personally that BOW rules all. I think the USFSA should be telling the Knierems to get the wrist sorted out and be ready to fight next season not we think your season is still hypothetically alive.
 
NAOTMAA said:
^^^^
Well when I wrote my post I was thinking of the Knierems. The rest of the teams didn't really enter my head :shuffle:

Considering their performance at nationals and the injury to Chris's wrist I don't think they should be included on any list even if it is only as 2nd alternate. To me their inclusion at all tells me personally that BOW rules all. I think the USFSA should be telling the Knierems to get the wrist sorted out and be ready to fight next season not we think your season is still hypothetically alive.
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Oh, I agree 100% regarding the Knierems. It's a joke to include them as alternates for either Worlds or 4CCs.

But then again, I have an irrational hatred for the Knierems and just want them to retire completely.
 
Karen-W said:
Realistically, if we had two teams going to Worlds instead of just one berth, do you think the USFSA would have ignored the results and left D/F off the team?
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I do. I think they would have gone with C/L and K/O. If the Knierims were competing well all year and had been strong champions at Nationals, with D/F 2nd, they might have gone with the results. Not that I think that is right, but I think that's what would have happened.
 
NAOTMAA said:
^^^^
Well when I wrote my post I was thinking of the Knierems. The rest of the teams didn't really enter my head :shuffle:

Considering their performance at nationals and the injury to Chris's wrist I don't think they should be included on any list even if it is only as 2nd alternate. To me their inclusion at all tells me personally that BOW rules all. I think the USFSA should be telling the Knierems to get the wrist sorted out and be ready to fight next season not we think your season is still hypothetically alive.
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Well, it doesn't rule all, because if it did Kayne/O'Shea would probably be going to Worlds, full stop. They have a GP silver, the highest SB of all the US teams, won the short program, and would have most likely won the whole thing if they had gone up on the last lift. Denney/Frazier probably wouldn't be going to 4CCs either.

Body of work is a factor, not the be-all end-all. Same with Nationals results. Both hold weight.

This isn't to say I entirely agree with their decision - I think Stellato/Bartholomay should be going to 4CC and having the Knierims anywhere on the list just doesn't make sense to me.
 
NAOTMAA said:
I feel like this whole BOW thing is increasingly making nationals more and more pointless. Or least the way the USFSA is using it when picking teams.

It seems instead of simply considering previous competition results along with the nationals results they're just looking at previous competition results and going off of that alone regardless of what happened at nationals.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

You would think that the USFSA would like to promote their national championships as the premier event of the season.

It is a high pressure competition with solid global coverage. To say to the skaters that what they're putting out there on the ice now isn't as relevant as what they did a month or two ago, is worrisome. Particularly, when they want to rescue the pairs development program and get two spots for 2020.

BOW is such a crap shoot.
 
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essence_of_soy said:
It was interesting watching the Pairs Press Conference where the main focus was about getting back two spots at the World Level for Team USA. Cain and LeDuc have the drive and the hunger to do that.
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If any team can achieve that, it’s Cain/LeDuc. No excuses or whining.
 
4CC is not Worlds! S-D/B should have a 4CC spot. Nationals should mean something. It's a slap in the face and it feels like they're being told to retire.

Besides, going back a year for BOW is crazy. Our pairs have so many injuries and ups and downs -what they could do a year ago doesn't mean they could do it again.
 
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In the past, I have understood and agreed with “Body of Work” related decisions (Ashley in 2014, Adam in 2018). The Stellato/Bartholomay one regarding 4CC feels more like the Castelli/Tran 4CC snub from 2017. I wondered what message the fed was sending then, and I wonder the same thing now.

IIRC, D/F are part of the reason the US is down to one pairs slot at Worlds. The year they won the US Championships (2017) they didn’t even make it to the free skate, ultimately finishing in 20th place. I’m guessing that’s why they are not an alternate for worlds. S/B have arguably had a better season internationally than D/F. Why not reward that with a trip to 4CC?
 
SorrySkater said:
IIRC, D/F are part of the reason the US is down to one pairs slot at Worlds. The year they won the US Championships (2017) they didn’t even make it to the free skate, ultimately finishing in 20th place. I’m guessing that’s why they are not an alternate for worlds. S/B have arguably had a better season internationally than D/F. Why not reward that with a trip to 4CC?
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I don’t find it to be true that S/B had a better international season than D/F at all.

Denney/Frazier
Autumn Classic: 3rd, 164.43
GP Skate Canada: 6th, 170.22 (SB)

Stellato-Dudek/Bartholomay:
Nebelhorn Trophy: 3rd, 174.91
GP Helsinki: 6th, 159.21
Golden Spin of Zagreb: 3rd, 176.44 (SB)

S-D/B have a higher Season’s Best but they also had an additional opportunity to compete internationally later in the season. Otherwise, their results are almost equal. Why shouldn’t D/F get the spot to 4CC given that they clearly finished ahead at Nationals?

D/F didn’t qualify to the LP at Worlds two years ago, but neither did Deanna and Nate last year.
 
SorrySkater said:
In the past, I have understood and agreed with “Body of Work” related decisions (Ashley in 2014, Adam in 2018). The Stellato/Bartholomay one regarding 4CC feels more like the Castelli/Tran 4CC snub from 2017. I wondered what message the fed was sending then, and I wonder the same thing now.

IIRC, D/F are part of the reason the US is down to one pairs slot at Worlds. The year they won the US Championships (2017) they didn’t even make it to the free skate, ultimately finishing in 20th place. I’m guessing that’s why they are not an alternate for worlds. S/B have arguably had a better season internationally than D/F. Why not reward that with a trip to 4CC?
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Technically, Stellato/Bartholomay are also part of the reason the U.S. is down to one pairs slot at Worlds. Last year, they also failed to make the Worlds free skate, just as D/F did in 2016. To be fair, S/B were much, much closer to making it last year than D/F were in 2016. But still, the bottom line is they didn't make it.

And in both years, the Knierims failed to place high enough in the free skate to secure 2 spots.

Blaming Denney/Frazier entirely or primarily for our Worlds slot issues, as many seem to do, is simply unfair IMO.
 
essence_of_soy said:
It was interesting watching the Pairs Press Conference where the main focus was about getting back two spots at the World Level for Team USA. Cain and LeDuc have the drive and the hunger to do that.
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I remember Timothy after Junior Worlds in 2011 (9th with Cassie Andrews) being really thrilled that his team's performance held onto 3 spots for the US (combined with Cain/Regans 4th). It was a huge driver for him, even though he would age out of juniors and not benefit for it.

I have no doubt that earning spots for the US is their main goal. It wouldn't be realistic to set a main goal for the podium; though I'm sure they will still train like they want that!
 
Skittl1321 said:
I remember Timothy after Junior Worlds in 2011 (9th with Cassie Andrews) being really thrilled that his team's performance held onto 3 spots for the US (combined with Cain/Regans 4th). It was a huge driver for him, even though he would age out of juniors and not benefit for it.

I have no doubt that earning spots for the US is their main goal. It wouldn't be realistic to set a main goal for the podium; though I'm sure they will still train like they want that!
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Unfortunately none of the US pairs will get in the top 10 this year. Let’s be realistic, none of them are capable to be in the top 10. Cain and LeDuc were amazing but there pair elements are not going to be in top 10.
 
chachacha said:
Unfortunately none of the US pairs will get in the top 10 this year. Let’s be realistic, none of them are capable to be in the top 10. Cain and LeDuc were amazing but there pair elements are not going to be in top 10.
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I don't know. I think getting 2 spots back will be a challenge, but I think a low top 10 finish is possible. But I have no doubt it is a motivator for them, and their goal. It isn't just about them. They care about the pairs program.
 
chachacha said:
Unfortunately none of the US pairs will get in the top 10 this year. Let’s be realistic, none of them are capable to be in the top 10. Cain and LeDuc were amazing but there pair elements are not going to be in top 10.
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I know I'm forgetting at least one pair, but I think Ashley and Tim can place 9-10 and get the job done.

3 Russian, 2 Chinese, 1 France, 1 Italy, 1 Canada...I'm counting 8 teams.
 
SidelineSkater said:
I know I'm forgetting at least one pair, but I think Ashley and Tim can place 9-10 and get the job done.

3 Russian, 2 Chinese, 1 France, 1 Italy, 1 Canada...I'm counting 8 teams.
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The top Germans and the North Koreans will also be in the mix around the 8-11th place range but I believe that C/L can still achieve a top 10 placement at Worlds if they perform as they did in Detroit.
 
Frau Muller said:
The top Germans and the North Koreans will also be in the mix around the 8-11th place range but I believe that C/L can still achieve a top 10 placement at Worlds if they perform as they did in Detroit.
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danafan said:
Additionally, the North Koreans and Austrians are ahead of Cain/LeDuc on the ISU season best list. But the scores are very close. I think top 10 is very doable if they skate well.

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/sb2018-19/sbtspto.htm
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Agree with you both. I considered including the Austrians as a 9th team. I did forget about the North Koreans. A clean-ish C/L should beat both teams, but I can see them being very close in scoring potential. 4CC's will be a good match-up with the North Korean Pair...as well as a rematch of US nats with the other two teams.
 
Does Canada have two spots? I was more impressed with the silver medalists there than with C&L at US Nationals.
 
casken said:
Does Canada have two spots? I was more impressed with the silver medalists there than with C&L at US Nationals.
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Yes. We'll get to see how they fare against each other at 4CC. Cain & Leduc easily beat Walsh & Michaud at Skate America, but Walsh & Michaud had their worst competition of the season there and have been skating much better since then. I do generally think if both teams skated their best that Cain & Leduc would still come out on top though.
 
Germany's Hase/Seegert's SB is also within a point of Cain/LeDuc's so they could also be a factor in the top-10 quest.
 
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