U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[aftershocks]

^^ Thanks for your perspective @clairecloutier. I agree that having C/L go to 4CCs might be smart in view of how 4CCs is being looked at seriously as a qualifier event in the lead up to next year's Olympics. And yet, I too am definitely surprised at seeing C/L being placed ahead of C/T on Worlds alternate list, based on Nationals results.

I can't speak with too much authority on this until I actually get to see all of the fp performances which I missed a lot of on NBC yesterday. I was disappointed to notice from forum comments that there weren't the 'redemptive skates' from all the competitors that Ashley C had hopefully predicted during the sp press conference. But then, every athlete definitely has to learn from everything that happens and figure out how to navigate the ups and downs, the media attention, the elation of good performances and the disappointment of less than good performances.

I truly feel tempered delight for Haven & Brandon. They were happy and sad at the same time in view of their struggles to make it back from Haven's injury. I wanted to see them jubilant after a great performance in winnning their first U.S. Nats championship. But we don't always get what we want the way we want it. Like the athletes do, I guess we have to take what comes, and get on with it. Easier said than done.

 

[centerpt1]

It is sad that Castelli/Tran aren't even 1st alternates to Worlds. I was so hopeful when they paired up, despite the citizenship issues. They haven't gelled as quickly as one would hope , but they are still an experienced pair team. If the 1st alternate was called to go....I just think C/T would score higher than C/L.

It just seems odd to dump the more experienced silver placed team for a newly minted bronze placed team.

There seems to be a lot of favoritism to C/L as the team that was engineered by USFS. Was their record SO much better than C/T's? Or was this done because C/L are potential Olympic team members and C/T are not?

Is this a message to Castelli to dump Tran? When is it time to say this pairing just isn't working? How long does a pair take to gel?

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I dunno... I think C&L have gotten more accomplished in 6 months than C&T in 3 yrs. Perhaps because of this USFSA is investing more in this team at the moment.

Im not even thinking of his citizenship issues and I still feel USFS got it right 100%

 

[OrioleBeagle]

It is sad that Castelli/Tran aren't even 1st alternates to Worlds. I was so hopeful when they paired up, despite the citizenship issues. They haven't gelled as quickly as one would hope , but they are still an experienced pair team. If the 1st alternate was called to go....I just think C/T would score higher than C/L.

It just seems odd to dump the more experienced silver placed team for a newly minted bronze placed team.

There seems to be a lot of favoritism to C/L as the team that was engineered by USFS. Was their record SO much better than C/T's? Or was this done because C/L are potential Olympic team members and C/T are not?

Is this a message to Castelli to dump Tran? When is it time to say this pairing just isn't working? How long does a pair take to gel?

Marissa and Mervin were robbed! I have a feeling that even if they had won, they still wouldn't have been sent to worlds! This new World team selection rule was obviously made with them in mind.

 

[Catherine M]

I'm on the fence about the decision of sending Cain/LeDuc over Castelli/Tran to 4CC. Yes I get it that its the Olympic test event but after watching the freeskates again this morning, I thought that C/T were fairly judged at nationals and deserved 2nd and this is coming from a HUGE Cain/LeDuc fan.

If being a fan of Luba & Dylan has taught me anything, there are other elements in a short and long program besides sbs jumps that can wrack up the points and rightly so.

And Marissa and Mervin should have at least been given the 1st alternate spot to world so I will understand if this is a bitter pill for them to swallow.

 

[Doggygirl]

I have a question about C/T unrelated to their placement or international assignments. Does anyone have knowledge of their working relationship? My seat at Nationals was close to the ice on the K&C end, so it was easy to watch facial expressions and goings on at the side lines. Especially during warm-up and even during the SP skate, Castelli appeared to be royally PO'd. Never-ending bitch face. I realize that anyone can have a bad day and I'm sure every team has ups and downs between the partners. I just found the stares and glares so obvious I couldn't help but wonder how they usually get along.

It's really none of my business either..,.....

 

[Lara]

All I can think is that it would be extremely odd for Marissa to continue living/training away from home in Montreal with a partner ineligible for the Olympics if they weren't getting along at least most of the time.

I can understand the USFS decision on one hand, but it still leaves a bitter taste. Best case scenario is that C&T are motivated to prove them wrong and come back transformed next season. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[topaz]

Alexa and Chris have the goods on paper but Chris is just about as consistent on his jumps as is Mervin. S/K will be lucky to make top 10 at worlds.
The USFSA is sending them to 4cc and worlds so they can have "some" competitive experience this season at the expense of Marissa and Mervin. I hope Mervin get with a sports pysch and comes back strong next season. Mervin is a world medalist, something that Alexa and Chris will NEVER be. I think this is an insult to C/T, shame on them.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Alexa and Chris have the goods on paper but I Chris is just about as consistent on his jumps as is Mervin. S/K will be lucky to make top 10 at worlds.
The USFSA is sending them to 4cc and worlds so they can have "some" competitive experience this season at the expense of Marissa and Mervin. I hope Mervin get with a sports pysch and comes back strong next season. Mervin is a world medalist, something at Alexa and Chris will NEVER be. I think this is an insult to C/T, shame on them.

hmmmmm, well from what I saw from Scimerims little outdoor December skating show that alone would have blown the roof off C&Ts Nats skate. So, there's that......

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

After rewatching C&L programs about 6 times now I think that Timothy LeDuc may be my FAVORITE male pairs skater in the USA! And before this season i was unfamiliar with him.

And Yankowskas is my favorite female. Didnt they try out? How did it go? I guess not good? The pairing of Cain does remind me a bit of Yankowskas. Maybe it was the white and black costumes (Tango and Ave Maria for Yankowskas) and blonde hair that reminds me.

And then learning that in that Massive jump combo it was Cain's jumps who were under rotated and not Timothy's.

Also Im LOVING his look and aesthetic. I love his flexibility. I love HIS EXPRESSION and ability to emote. I LOVE his calmness. In fact can I nominate him now for next year's PORNY award?????

 

[aftershocks]

@AngieNikodinovLove, if you aren't that familiar with Tim LeDuc then you may not have seen him skate with his former partner, Dee Dee Leng.

Here they are in 2014 skating to a great sp -- Tim is without a full beard : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9PSLawQyY4

Dee Dee & Tim were 3rd after the sp. Tim's reaction to their marks in the kiss 'n cry is adorable. They didn't perform as well in the fp and dropped to 7th overall. Tim apparently learned from this to temper his emotions and not become too overexcited. It's great for Tim that he had wonderful experiences traveling and performing on cruise ships for two years. He was able to save money and come back to competitive skating with more maturity and focus.

I too love Castelli/Tran a great deal. I hope they are able to work out their challenges and get more opportunities to compete. There's no reason for fans to be negative toward C/L because of being upset for C/T not getting the top Worlds alternate selection, and being slotted as first alternate selection for 4CCs instead of making the team. I totally understand the dismay, and it would probably have been fairer to have C/T the first alternates for Worlds and C/L the second alternates. For 4CCs, I had thought the top finishers at Nationals would be sent and allow Scinierims more time to recover for Worlds. But, I guess since 4CCs is a qualifier for the Olympics next year and USFS want to give Scinierims a competitive opportunity before Worlds, that's why Scinierims are being sent.

C/T should try to remain positive and work really hard to shore up their weaknesses. They are one of the best teams stylistically, but they need to become more consistent and confident. Having competitive opportunities helps so hopefully they can go to more senior Bs next season in addition to GPs. I'd like to understand more about what their actual goals are for Mervin expediting the citizenship process and how that's all working out.

 

[topaz]

For the record, I'm not negative toward Cain/LeDuc, I'm negative towards the decison made by the USFSA in putting Marissa and Mervin as 2nd alt. for worlds, not sending them to 4cc and effectively ending their season.

 

[semogal]

The best revenge that C/T can have is to come back next year and skate lights out, medaling at every event they enter and kicking butt at nationals. In the short term, I would post a picture of USFS officials in my room and flip them the bird every morning ( I do that to my neighbor's Trump sign that is still in their yard...it is very therapeutic). I am really gutted for them because they are the SILVER medalists and are being relegated to the season scrap heap.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

For the record, I'm not negative toward Cain/LeDuc, I'm negative towards the decison made by the USFSA in putting Marissa and Mervin as 2nd alt. for worlds, not sending them to 4cc and effectively ending their season.

I dont think so at all. USFSA made the right call. The point difference in the silver I dont think was a strong enough case to put them on the team. I didnt know about and not even factoring in his citizenship issue.

C&T have had a lackluster season, a lackluster season before that and a lackluster season before that one too.

I dont think anyone would think what C&L have done this season is anything close to lackluster.

C&L have very sophisticated programs and I still think C&T have junior-ish programs. And of any teams in the USA they should have the most sophisticated material for the backgrounds they both have..... I like C&T a lot but I feel right decision was made.

 

[topaz]

I dont think so at all. USFSA made the right call. The point difference in the silver I dont think was a strong enough case to put them on the team. I didnt know about and not even factoring in his citizenship issue.

C&T have had a lackluster season, a lackluster season before that and a lackluster season before that one too.

I dont think anyone would think what C&L have done this season is anything close to lackluster.

C&L have very sophisticated programs and I still think C&T have junior-ish programs. And of any teams in the USA they should have the most sophisticated material for the backgrounds they both have..... I like C&T a lot but I feel right decision was made.

I happen to disagree. C/L have been lackluster this seaso too and they have not shown they should be preferred over Marissa and Mervin. The olympics' 4cc trials is misleading in my opinion. His citizenship issue is red herring and means nothing to this season. If this was the placements at 2018 US Nationals, then you'll have a point. But to say that C/L will get a chance to "get familar with the ice in Korea is silly. Or to say that because Mervin won't have his citizenship next season so why allow he and Marissa's season to continue is silly too.

To say that C/T has juniorish programs is simply upsurd. Their programs are constructed well, excellent spins, very good throws and most difficult and best lifts of any US team. There programs are very CoP friendly, their transitions alone are the best of any US team.

We'll have to agree to disagree and we'll see how well C/L do at 4cc.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

To say that C/T has juniorish programs is simply upsurd.

Respect everything you said

Although I do think their programs are not senior level. If I was a choreographer that free program is definitely something I would assign to a junior team. I also see no chemistry in "Fallin."

Question: If C&T finish top 2 at Nats next season do you think they would at least put them on the Worlds team since they wont be put on Olys?

 

[clairecloutier]

BTW, does anyone know for sure if Brianna de la Mora/Maxim Kurdyukov are still together? They competed in seniors at Nationals last year, but judging by Maxim's Facebook, it looks like he is now back in Russia??

 

[Spiralgraph]

I'm kind of in the middle between topaz and AngelaNikodinovLove on the opinion of C/T's LP. I don't think it's juniorish, but it doesn't excite me or draw me in. Perhaps if and when they skate a clean program, I'll look more favorably on them.
I really thought the LP of Stellato/Bartholomay was basic and not cohesive. They get a free pass from me this year because Deanna is so new to pairs. But I really hope Jim Peterson gets good choreographers for all his teams next season. The only LP I liked from his camp was Kayne and O'Shea's.

 

[kwanfan1818]

If being a fan of Luba & Dylan has taught me anything, there are other elements in a short and long program besides sbs jumps that can wrack up the points and rightly so.

And Marissa and Mervin should have at least been given the 1st alternate spot to world so I will understand if this is a bitter pill for them to swallow

I/M have hit their competitive limit until she starts landing those jumps. In the FS C/T already have L4's except for the L2 DS, and they got a little over 7 points net +GOE . C/L also had a L2 DS and a L3 spin, and just eked out net +GOE. They have a potential base upside for example, the difference between a B 3Tw and a L4 3Tw, and the longer they skate together, the greater that upside will be. C/L were also in the hot seat after the SP and did well considering, ending up less than two points behind C/T after the FS. They won't have to worry about that at 4C's, and a strong SP is a very big + at international championships, because of the impact on the FS groupings.

ETA: I say this loving Castelli. I saw her in some qualifying event I think the first year Icenetwork was around. I fell immediately in love with her and thought she was the best Pairs woman in the US and should find someone more equal than Shnapir. (And got slapped for the last, because C/S were one if the few US Pairs who were long-term partners.)

 

[Lacey]

Who is the recorded choreographer for Cain/LeDuc?

 

[Sylvia]

Who is the recorded choreographer for Cain/LeDuc?

Serge Onik.

Re-posting the link to this in-depth interview published before Nationals:

My new interview with Ashley & Tim for Figure Skaters Online: http://bit.ly/2k4eahU.

They talk about their new partnership, their season so far, their technical elements, their choreographic process this year, their hopes for Nationals & beyond, and more.

 

[Bellanca]

I still think C&T have junior-ish programs. And of any teams in the USA they should have the most sophisticated material for the backgrounds they both have..... I like C&T a lot but I feel right decision was made.

I agree.

Also, re Castelli & Tran, they knew the bottom line before Nats even started. USFS had to be strategic ... I know, I know, as much as they could, under the circumstances, and considering the obstacles that this team was/is still facing, USFS made the right (strategic) decision when naming the teams for Worlds and 4CC.

 

[ioana]

C&L have very sophisticated programs and I still think C&T have junior-ish programs. And of any teams in the USA they should have the most sophisticated material for the backgrounds they both have..... I like C&T a lot but I feel right decision was made.

No idea what sophistication refers to here, but Marissa and Mervin (narrowly) outscored Ashley & Tim in PCS at Nationals in both programs, despite making more visible mistakes in both. Their programs have interesting connecting moves and short set-up entries for all pair elements. They also skate with a lot of speed and ice coverage and maintain excellent flow in all their lifts. C/L have come a very long way for skating together less than a year and there is a lot of potential there, but right now all their pair elements are clearly a few levels below C/T. Am sure they will work on that and they could get them to improve with time -just not with 2 months left to go until Worlds. Am with everyone who is confused by the alternates order for Worlds.

 

[aftershocks]

I just think C/T would score higher than C/L.

I love both teams, but there's really no way to prove what would happen. In any given competition, anything can happen, as we've witnessed time and time again. I think C/T have a mesmerizing style and polish. C/T also have more speed at this point I believe, but watching on a computer or tv screen is not the best way to assess speed. C/L have proven their worth and potential, and I think USFS want to keep giving them opportunities and exposure.

Honestly, C/T need to work out their tech inconsistency kinks. Despite all of their superb qualities as a team, they haven't been going out there showing any confidence that they are going to be able to complete the jumps. Plus, they don't have an array of difficult jumps, so they at least need to find solidity on what they do have now. Let's be clear: C/T could have won with D/F not at full strength, and the other top teams being new. What ended up happening is that the new teams being in front of C/T after the sp lit somewhat of a fire under C/T to come back stronger in the fp. That was enough to win C/T second place, but it wasn't enough to win over USFS confidence and belief that C/T have fixed their tech issues.

It's worth pointing out that C/L beat K/O, D/F, and S-D/B at senior B competitions last year. In the short program at U.S. Natls, C/L beat C/T by 5.16 points. In the free program, C/T beat C/L by 6.91 points. So an approximate difference of about 1.75 or 1.81 re the total overall scoring difference at U.S. Nationals.

Therefore, fairly even results between C/T and C/L, with C/L being a new team who have shown steady progress in only 7 months. Maybe it wasn't helpful that C/T weren't qualified to start competing internationally in their first season together, which could mean that their learning curve process had no chance to gain momentum earlier on. But the upshot going forward is that hopefully C/T will be further challenged to fix their weaknesses and to come back with a take-no-prisoners attitude.

For C/L, they are still right on time, because it might have been too heavy pressure for them to win Nationals when they still have a lot of fine-tuning and improving to do as a team. It seems to me that USFS feel C/L have steadily gained progress through being given a lot of competitive opportunities, and so they want to keep giving them the experience and the exposure.

Worlds is a different animal of course, even more rife with politics which inevitably flows over into the scoring. Of course, how skaters actually compete on the ice is a factor in the scoring too.

At Nationals, I think the scoring in general was fair. Probably though Deanna and Nate should have been in second place by a small margin over D/F after the short program instead of the other way around. Although clearly D/F were ahead on the basis of having a higher quality of execution. D/F are hampered mainly by Haven not being at full strength to feel secure on the sbs jumps and throws.

The debating is fun because I enjoy all the teams, with my faves being the ones who made it to the podium, Gold through Pewter!

ETA:
I would have loved to see C/T get Worlds 1st alternate, and have D/F, C/T, and C/L go to 4CCs, while allowing Alexa/Chris to continue to train and be monitored, and then give Alexa/Chris a different opportunity to tune up at a competition before Worlds. If this had been a year other than one leading up to the Olympics with new selection criteria rules, then the selection decisions for 4CCs and Worlds might have been different.

 

[aftershocks]

... Castelli appeared to be royally PO'd. Never-ending bitch face... I just found the stares and glares so obvious I couldn't help but wonder how they usually get along.

I think Merv & Marissa get along fine. Haven't you seen them in interviews? They've talked about having known each other and been good friends even before they partnered. Seemingly Mervin is often a cut-up with a loosey-goosey personality, while Marissa is tough, no-nonsense and focused on competition ice. IOW, perhaps Marissa manages her nerves with 'b**ch-face,' while Mervin tries to stay loose by maintaining his sense of humor.


Cross-posting from 'Wow moment' thread in Skip:

I love the death spiral variation Jill and Peter performed at 1988 Olympics. Peter flips Jill completely over with her chest facing the ice after the traditional move into the backward outside edge maneuver. I wonder if the flipover move would be allowed today. It's unexpected and very effective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0QBuh8zBPI

I wonder do IJS requirements prevent today's pairs skaters from doing this variation on the death spiral? It's cool and very dramatic.

 

[feraina]

Recently I realized why I don't enjoy C/T's skating more, even though they have great SS, complex and smooth transitions, and improving synchrony. She just doesn't look really into the programs; she looks really preoccupied with the elements, and sort of stiff and awkward. It just doesn't flow or feel genuine. Tran is much better, but it's hard to ignore her, and their frequent errors keep one from enjoying them more too.

It kinda reminds me of Duhamel, not quite as bad, but then C/T don't have D/R's consistency either.

I feel like these lyrical programs are all wrong for them. Marissa looked much more authentic and confident in the 'fiercer' programs she had with shnapir. They should try going that route again.

 

[aftershocks]

I feel like these lyrical programs are all wrong for them.

^^ But none of C/T's programs are exactly lyrical, IMO! The sp is modern, edgy, quirky. And the fp is rock-pop medley via Journey. Nothing lyrical that I can see.

It took Castelli/Shnapir about five years or so to really find their mojo. They also went through a crisis of wondering if they should go their separate ways since they didn't get along. However, after talking it over, they made a commitment and got over the hump, winning their first U.S. National title (helped by the fact that Denney/Coughlin had retired). And as well, Julie Marcotte was instrumental in helping Marissa/Simon make more of an impact with their choreo. As we know, Marcotte also choreographs for Marissa/ Mervin.

I do agree that there's something off at times with C/T's dynamic during competitions. At their first U.S. Nationals, it appeared to be nerves and trying to adjust to each other as new partners. It's important to gain a level of trust and confidence in each other. TSL recently wondered whether C/T's jump techniques were different which would cause some problems for them trying to jump in unison.

In any case, I love this exhibition from 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVAqIyTNpCU
Again, there's nothing lyrical about this performance. It's sassy, edgy, sexy. And nothing wrong with their dynamic or their confidence here either. But they still have yet to fully transfer what they're showing here into their competitive programs.

 

[karmena]

It is very sad, and it is a mystery at the same time...Both of them, Marissa and Mervin, are excellent skaters and seems to be a very nice people ( and good friends) but, yes, they are sooo different stylistically/ and inwardly that a magic is not there...In my opinion, Marissa seems to me to be very subdued when she skates with Mervin... She is a star and she cannot shine. She cannot shine not because Mervin is a bad skater but because they both are too good but... they they do not compliment each other. I guess they need a choreography which opens a door for both of them to shine, which helps them to become a pair with a magic. Oh, it is sad because it seems, they both really love figure skating very much.
I apologize for my limited English vocabulary. It is hard to express exactly what I wanted to say.
( Mervin might be good with Lubov and Marissa with Dylan...)

 

[Spun Silver]

It is very sad, and it is a mystery at the same time...Both of them, Marissa and Mervin, are excellent skaters and seems to be a very nice people ( and good friends) but, yes, they are sooo different stylistically/ and inwardly that a magic is not there...In my opinion, Marissa seems to me to be very subdued when she skates with Mervin... She is a star and she cannot shine. She cannot shine not because Mervin is a bad skater but because they both are too good but... they they do not compliment each other. I guess they need a choreography which opens a door for both of them to shine, which helps them to become a pair with a magic. Oh, it is sad because it seems, they both really love figure skating very much.
I apologize for my limited English vocabulary. It is hard to express exactly what I wanted to say.
( Mervin might be good with Lubov and Marissa with Dylan...)

I think you express yourself beautifully and I agree. They both were more beautiful with their old partners, even if Marissa hated Simon. (I'm sure that's an exaggeration.) And I like your idea that the right choreography could make them work as a pair. I hope they find it. Any thoughts on what kind of music or choreo that might be?

PS: No messing with Lyubov and Dylan!

 

[Chemistry66]

2017 Junior Bronze medalists Alexandria Yao/Austin Hale are currently listed on the Bavarian Open entries list. Congrats to them on their first International, after only training together for about 4-5 months!

Glad they get this assignment, as Austin ages out of ISU Junior after this season (turns 21 in April)