skateboy
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That was a US Nats PCS number, where all the top placements get inflated marks. Jason got 92, also high.
At worlds Nathan got 84 PCS and Jason 89... I am fine with those numbers.
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That was a US Nats PCS number, where all the top placements get inflated marks. Jason got 92, also high.
At worlds Nathan got 84 PCS and Jason 89... I am fine with those numbers.
MAXSwagg
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I like him very much but could Vincent be going any slower? That step sequence especially was slow as HELL. Shallow edges and stiff knees in the difficult turns, poor quality transitions, poor ice coverage. Skating skills should be at most 6.75. No interpretation, performance, or expression in this. Kind of a mess. His programs last season were much better.
What does Max do well, and what does he do better than Nathan?
SkateFanBerlin
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^^ Sure @Weve3, but your sentiments are mainly addressing the aspect of doing all you can to succeed no matter your age when opportunities present themselves. And I do not disagree with that outlook and aspiration, which in part factored into how Jason Brown and Polina Edmunds unexpectedly made the 2014 U.S. Olympics Team. As I said, such ambitious desire and valiant striving is to be expected and there's nothing wrong with that. If you have everything you need and all that it takes, no matter how old you are, more power to you.
What you aren't addressing is the complicated factors involved with quads being heavily rewarded in the scoring, with PCS being manipulated and rather widely fluctuating in individual scoring, with the fact that all quadsters do not have equal abilities in every measurable aspect, that granted are often inequitably measured anyways. Which leads us to the fact that politics can trump everything, that reputation and luck always weigh in, and that ice is always slippery.
But yeah, carry on with the 'sense of urgency' meme. It is the Olympics season after all.
At last years worlds thee top 7 guys had an average FS PCS of 91 with Hanyu at the top with 97. So, those 6 points could make a difference. But, as Jin and Chen know - and you see it in the scoring - an extra quad lobbed over the wall can take away that advantage. Even a 3A turned to a 3A/3T or a 4S turned to a 4S/3T could be enough. The judges are not going to put some pure jumper on the Oly podium. But there is a reason skaters are devoting so much time setting up those quads during competition.
The point is that at Nats their PCS was only 1 point apart; that's not true internationally. On average, Nathan's international PCS last year was about 83; Jason's average - including the two competitions where he was injured and recovering from injury - was about 88. You may disagree, but I personally think the 5-point PCS spread is more reflective of their relative performing skills than the 1 point difference we saw at Nats.
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misskarne
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nvm. Let the double standard play out, I mean it's only Max, so who cares, right?
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jlai
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I'm trying to say something nice about both or else misskarne will accuse me of doublestandard (she may already think that)
The criticisms of Nathan's pcs are fair. But let's apply that to every skater with no choreography. No skaters with no choreography should get over 80 in pcs, objectively speaking (that includes our favorites)
VGThuy
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If you're going to accuse people of having double standards then I'm just going to be real and say people think Nathan deserves higher PCS than Max because they see in the actual programs and abilities that he is a much better skater than Max. His PCS at Nationals was inflated. But he's far from the only American skater who has inflated PCS there. Internationally, PCS has gotten ridiculous these days, and some think the differentials should be bigger. I think that's fair. However, Nathan's PCS has no bearing on Max's. There are reasons why Max scores the way he does.
meggonzo
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Barbara Manatee
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Vincent is trying to learn a lot at once, and I think it's way too early to know if he can master it all or not. I do give him +3 for ambition. To me he looked more exhausted than overwhelmed at Skate Detroit.
skateboy
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I agree. My point was that, even if Nathan is not yet one of the top three or four men's skaters artistically, he does offer something more than just quads.
jlai
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I think classifying skaters as jumpers or artist is oversimplying. To say someone deserves low pcs because of one PCS category is also simplifying.
For instance, Zhou is expressive, but he is no artist, and he should score among the lowest in SS among all US men.
Chen has solid SS, but lacks transitions and choreography in the quad-heavy LPs. He usually has decent SPs though.
Adam is pretty good in SS, but lacks transitions also (but not as bad as a quad-heavy LP from Chen), but has good choreography and expression.
Max lacks SS and transitions, and often choreography and interpretation.
Brown is one of the few to check all the PCS boxes. With the other guys, it all depends on which PCS category you want to harp on.
For instance, Zhou is expressive, but he is no artist, and he should score among the lowest in SS among all US men.
Chen has solid SS, but lacks transitions and choreography in the quad-heavy LPs. He usually has decent SPs though.
Adam is pretty good in SS, but lacks transitions also (but not as bad as a quad-heavy LP from Chen), but has good choreography and expression.
Max lacks SS and transitions, and often choreography and interpretation.
Brown is one of the few to check all the PCS boxes. With the other guys, it all depends on which PCS category you want to harp on.
skatesindreams
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Nathan is a musician; and has considerable training in dance.
I believe that, given maturity and thought, he will now be able to integrate these skills into his programs; to complement his superior technical ability, in ways he hasn't been free to do previously.
Given the "importance"/emphasis placed on jumps in the current system; it was necessary to emphasize that portion of his skating before the other.
I look forward to watching the growth of his chosen choreography for the Olympic season, into something which presents Nathan to best advantage.
In that case, his "artistry" will take care of itself!
I believe that, given maturity and thought, he will now be able to integrate these skills into his programs; to complement his superior technical ability, in ways he hasn't been free to do previously.
Given the "importance"/emphasis placed on jumps in the current system; it was necessary to emphasize that portion of his skating before the other.
I look forward to watching the growth of his chosen choreography for the Olympic season, into something which presents Nathan to best advantage.
In that case, his "artistry" will take care of itself!
Meoima
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Do you want to talk to an actual Russian ballerina about Nathan being balletic?
I mean... yeah he does have some posture now and then but all of our beloved skaters are not balletic at all.
kwanfan1818
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Nathan Chen danced as a child with Ballet West.
I agree!
MAXSwagg
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It's not reflective enough. But that's what happens when judges bunch all the men at the top. And now, especially since TES is becoming a major factor in the score, judges should be scrutinizing the men MORE. Jason-Nathan PCS gap should be at least 10 points...
Roux
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Hmm, interesting. (Here's Shoma, btw: https://youtu.be/Sb49Avu-iNk?t=29m1s)
I've been thinking a lot about Nathan's artistry since that article about his ballet background. Rewatching, re-evaluating, and trying to figure out why I don't feel it. I think the main thing is sustained, cohesive movement. It really bugs me when I see the moment Nathan drops his hands and turns his attention to the jumping pass, and those moments are what I end up remembering. That feeling is what I associate with the entire performance.
I say "movement" rather than "choreography" or "performance" because I think that's the difference I see between Nathan and Shoma: When Shoma is preparing a jump, it blends into the rest of the program (the choreography might have something to do with it, but it's the similarity of movement that's important).
I do look forward to seeing Nathan's programs when it all smooths out! I know that's very demanding; I don't mean to disparage what he's accomplished already -- I just can't enjoy it until then.
LMAO, 10 points over Nathan in PCS for Jason’s nationals FS? If you haven’t watched Nathan’s nationals FS, I suggest you go watch it, tho I admit that was his best FS last season. While at it, you can also watch Jason FS there. I’d say Jason should get around 85 for that nationals performance. But I know where you are coming from and you don’t care about Jason but Hanyu. Don’t worry, by the end of this season you should see Nathan close in on Hanyu on PCS.
As for Tavi, eh, and Karne, everyone in the forum knows where they are coming from, Nathan will not only be miles ahead of Jason in TES but also surpass him on PCS if Jason keeps that garbage SP and the no name FS.
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el henry
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Very interesting, and thank you for posting. It probably come as no surprise that I tend agree with @Tavi; in isolation, these moves are more impressive than as part of a program where to me (and again, to me) half the ice time is setting up a jump. (well, maybe not half. If I can't exaggerate on a Board posting, where can I exaggerate
) I also think Nathan has gifts other than jumps, and I would like to see more of them.And, to jump off from this post and not because you said anything about this, @skateboy, I would say the entire discussion about ballet and who has ballet skills and who knows ballet doesn't really impact my opinion, because, I'm not really all that interested in ballet......
And although many would have credited Toller with "balletic" style, Toller himself didn't, and I agree with him:"Ballet sort of bores me. I think skating is much more interesting than ballet. It's more exciting, more athletic, more thrilling. There's only so many ballets that you can see with people running around in their nightgowns and little witches coming around the bushes and the prince dying at the end. I want more than that."
http://skateguard1.blogspot.com/2017/07/a-tiny-trove-of-titillating-tollerisms.html
(Many thanks to @N_Halifax and his SkateGuard blog for the quote
)Very interesting, and thank you for posting. It probably come as no surprise that I tend agree with @Tavi; in isolation, these moves are more impressive than as part of a program where to me (and again, to me) half the ice time is setting up a jump. (well, maybe not half. If I can't exaggerate on a Board posting, where can I exaggerate
And, to jump off from this post and not because you said anything about this, @skateboy, I would say the entire discussion about ballet and who has ballet skills and who knows ballet doesn't really impact my opinion, because, I'm not really all that interested in ballet......
"Ballet sort of bores me. I think skating is much more interesting than ballet. It's more exciting, more athletic, more thrilling. There's only so many ballets that you can see with people running around in their nightgowns and little witches coming around the bushes and the prince dying at the end. I want more than that."
http://skateguard1.blogspot.com/2017/07/a-tiny-trove-of-titillating-tollerisms.html
(Many thanks to @N_Halifax and his SkateGuard blog for the quote
Omigod that quote!
shine
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I think when Toller said ballet was boring he was mainly referring to the choreography and overall production, which does get pretty repetitive. But when people called him balletic, they were mostly referring to his posture, style, and the way he moved, carried and presented himself. Although there's much more freedom and variety in his skating than traditional ballet, his style definitely stemmed from ballet. Also, I agree with you on the continued harp on Chen's ballet background being unnecessary. It really doesn't matter to me either as I think his skating should speak for itself, and it has. Maybe not in his most recent programs (save his SP from last season), but in past programs, such as this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5h0sebFPGo. It'll be very interesting to see if he's able to combine that level of choreography and musicality with his current technical content.Very interesting, and thank you for posting. It probably come as no surprise that I tend agree with @Tavi; in isolation, these moves are more impressive than as part of a program where to me (and again, to me) half the ice time is setting up a jump. (well, maybe not half. If I can't exaggerate on a Board posting, where can I exaggerate
And, to jump off from this post and not because you said anything about this, @skateboy, I would say the entire discussion about ballet and who has ballet skills and who knows ballet doesn't really impact my opinion, because, I'm not really all that interested in ballet......
"Ballet sort of bores me. I think skating is much more interesting than ballet. It's more exciting, more athletic, more thrilling. There's only so many ballets that you can see with people running around in their nightgowns and little witches coming around the bushes and the prince dying at the end. I want more than that."
http://skateguard1.blogspot.com/2017/07/a-tiny-trove-of-titillating-tollerisms.html
(Many thanks to @N_Halifax and his SkateGuard blog for the quote
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skateboy
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I, too, read that recently. To me, it wasn't Toller denying he had a balletic style (in terms of body line and positions), but saying he didn't like ballet, in terms of the stories, and as it is presented onstage.
Similar to a singer with a classically trained/sounding voice being bored by opera... it happens.
ETA: Looks like @shine beat me to it, lol!
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skateboy
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meggonzo
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Should there be a gap? If there is, I know who I'd put ahead....
Sylvia
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For those who don't have Kiss & Cry access here, Skate Detroit has published detailed protocols for the FIRST time - link to Senior Men SP & FS: http://dscclub.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/2017SkateDetroitSeniorMenResults.pdf
MAXSwagg
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Depends. If both are perfect, perhaps no more than 5 points difference. If Jason is perfect and Yuzu bombs, Jason ahead. Yuzu has superior skating skills, transitions are equal though I might put Jason slightly ahead (0.25 point). Performance, composition, and interpretation comes down to the day. If they are both perfect, my preference will likely be Yuzu (typically 97-98) and Jason around 94-95.
Karpenko
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A new Golden Skate interview with Tom Zakrajsek, he discusses Vincent and Max's training plans for the upcoming season (and Mirai):https://youtu.be/fkmIIuIhDMA
He was awesome, and Michelle Kwan also makes a very brief appearance.
()
misskarne
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https://youtu.be/fkmIIuIhDMA
A lot of interesting information in this, will probably need to listen again to digest it all. Four quad FS for Max is on the table. No more Mr Mills programs, that's interesting. I am unfamiliar with the new choreographer. I guess this confirms that the Matador went to the chopping block (omg I am so sad about this). I have a lot of feelings about the implications of Tom's little reveal of what Mirai's music options were, though @Karpenko has nicely calmed some of those.
Did not miss the hint that the USFS is already favouring Zhou.
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