U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

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As awesome as Vincent's win was, Jason's season's best is still the 2nd highest for US men.
1. 307.46 - Nathan CHEN (ISU Four Continents Championships 2017)
8. 268.38 - Jason BROWN (ISU GP 2016 Progressive Skate America)
9. 267.53 - Adam RIPPON (ISU GP Trophee de France 2016)
11. 258.11 - Vincent ZHOU (ISU World Junior Championships 2017)
 
I am not sure why there is criticism about Adam's win last season. He followed it up by being the top ranked American at Worlds where he did get strong PCSs. His performances at Nationals were worthy of the title, even if some thought that Nathan should have won. Personally, I think it worked out for the best-- Adam got a title, Nathan got a medal that made him hungry, and now the US has a bona fide Olympic medalist contender.
 
Keep in mind Vincent wasn't allowed to do a quad in the SP at Junior Worlds and there's one less element (choreo sequence) in the Junior Worlds LP. That said, Jason's scores at Skate America may have still been the second highest SB with all of that accounted for. I hope Jason will be closer to his SA self by Worlds.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
Keep in mind Vincent wasn't allowed to do a quad in the SP at Junior Worlds and there's one less element (choreo sequence) in the Junior Worlds LP. That said, Jason's scores at Skate America may have still been the second highest SB with all of that accounted for. I hope Jason will be closer to his SA self by Worlds.
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If Jason is not completely ready, I cannot imagine that he would go. He knows that his role is an important one, and I am certain that he would cede his spot should he determine that he is not ready to compete.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
Keep in mind Vincent wasn't allowed to do a quad in the SP at Junior Worlds and there's one less element (choreo sequence) in the Junior Worlds LP. That said, Jason's scores at Skate America may have still been the second highest SB with all of that accounted for. I hope Jason will be closer to his SA self by Worlds.
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Also, isn't the Junior Free Program a bit shorter (in time) than senior level?
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
Keep in mind Vincent wasn't allowed to do a quad in the SP at Junior Worlds and there's one less element (choreo sequence) in the Junior Worlds LP. That said, Jason's scores at Skate America may have still been the second highest SB with all of that accounted for. I hope Jason will be closer to his SA self by Worlds.
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I recall reading a quote around the time of 4CCs that Jason had started practicing quads again, presumably the 4T. I think he will be OK

With regard to the conversations about Max upthread: He is in a bit of a quandary and I say that as someone who genuinely roots for him. Nathan and now Vincent can out-quad him, Joshua Farris looks sharp on the comeback trail landing 4T and 4S (Yes, it's just practice but that is something for someone who has been out and retired, and has new perspective). Jason and Adam can do 1 quad / attempt and score close to 270 points. Skating w/ a 4S in the SP and 2 4S in the LP, Max got 258 points on home soil at '15 SA and he hits a ceiling w/o amazing PCS. He has talked about a 4T but again, Nathan and Vincent are taking over as quad kings. Max's niche is disappearing but I hope he finds a way up and out.

I will say training a 4A in a harness is probably NOT the answer when he has other skating components to work on
 
Based on the improvement in levels Max got at Nationals, I think he's finally showing some improvement on non-jump aspects of skating. Despite this, I think it's far too little, too late. If he had started seriously working on PCS and spins/footwork levels even a few years back I think he could definitely be one of the top men in the US even after Nathan/Vincent hit the scene. Honestly, I love Max - he obviously works hard at whatever his coaches ask him to work hard on and he obviously wants to do well. I don't love Max's team's strategy up to this point of focusing on jumps. While that worked for a while, now that the top men (Hanyu, Uno, Fernandes, etc.) are landing multiple quads with +GOE, getting high PCS, and get top levels on non-jump elements, simply doing quads isn't enough anymore.

As for Jason, he was able to do most of his jumps cleanly at Nationals despite just starting to jump again the week before. I think that means he'll certainly be capable of doing better at Worlds two months later. He wasn't great at 4CC either, but the one other time he's competed he also finished 6th and then got 4th at Worlds. Of course, he's pretty darn consistent when healthy, so I wouldn't be surprised if he bounces back and does well at Worlds despite the 4CC hiccup.
 
Jammers said:
I think we can say that a new era in US Men's skating is taking place right in front of our eyes. For years the US Men have been behind the rest of the world when it came to quads but the younger guys saw in the last few years that wasn't going to cut it anymore and now we are seeing them push themselves at a younger age to learn to do quads and it's paying off bigtime.
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It's a natural progression, plus talent and a lot of other factors coming together. And please, let's not act as if U.S. men have had no talent nor influence and impact on the men's field during the 7-year major podium drought. :drama: U.S. men have always wielded stylistic and artistic influence in men's skating. And it all began with the athletic dominance in the late 1940s of Dick Button. Through the years, U.S. men have had great pioneering influence athletically and artistically. It's just that the world of figure skating has gone through a sea change in terms of global depth and the scoring changes and advent of the quad revolution. USFS was slow to understand and react to the changes. Things go in cycles and they will continue to.

Let's enjoy the brightening future for U.S. men making a stronger competitive challenge for major international podiums. If healthy, Nathan Chen was on course to win Junior Worlds last year, so it's great seeing Vincent grab the spotlight in Taipei after he missed out on JGPF. I think Vincent probably prefers winning Junior Worlds in any case. :)

I totally salute Vincent Zhou. I think his success at U.S. Nationals gave him a great deal of confidence, plus his competition in Bavaria was helpful. And all of that built to him being in such a great zone in Taipei. That was a wonderful and very accomplished free skate! All credit due to Vincent and to Drew Meekins (for that wonderful choreo and music selection), plus Tammy and indeed Tom Z! I saw Tom Z looking on in the background when Vincent came off the ice to a group hug from Drew and Tammy. :D

I enjoyed the whole of Vincent's program, and since quads are necessary, it's nice to see how Vincent has improved his quad mastery over the course of the season. I recognized the first one in his program. But these quads are not always easy to see in real time. The revolutions are sometimes easier to make out on replay. The great thing is how practically perfect Vincent was in a well-rounded way, and he still has potential for continued growth. That's what's so amazing. And once again, we shouldn't underestimate the importance of how well put together the program is, and how that makes a difference competitively.

The judges were underestimating Vincent, and he managed to throw a glorious wrench into the judges' midst. I also thought Jun Hwan Cha was low-balled by the judges in comparison to how gifted he is over Samarin and Petrov. But I suppose Cha is seen to have more chances to prevail in the future.
 
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Replying to these 3 posts in the Kiss & Cry in this thread:
her grace said:
does anyone know Krasnozhon's plans? Torgashev and Hiwatashi may be the top two returning American juniors next season.
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Debbie S said:
My guess is Krasnozhon will be back on the JGP but who knows. His placements (so far) here and at the JGPF show that he's still got some room to grow in Juniors, and with next year being an Oly year, it makes sense for him to move up internationally the following season.
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dinakt said:
Krasnozhon's latest interview states that his plan is still to compete in Juniors during the GP season, and Seniors at Nationals. Probably wise.
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Re-posting the link to Alex Krasnozhon's interview before Junior Worlds that dinakt cited above (CC: @her grace @Debbie S): http://figureskatersonline.com/news...ow-a-russian-born-texas-loving-figure-skater/
Excerpt:
AK: Yes, I will still open my free skate with the quad loop. At one point, we were considering adding the quad salchow into the free skate, but two weeks ago, we decided to take it out. I think only one person at Junior Worlds will be doing two quads. Actually, Danny (defending champion Daniel Samohin) will probably be doing three. I’m better off doing one quad because that way I can get the max(imum) points out of my program. That is actually what I’m trying to learn–how to get max points without taking any big risks. Next year, since I’ll be going to senior domestically, still staying junior internationally, I will have to add more quads but I have to still get those points on the triples and I think Junior Worlds will be such a good experience. As we saw earlier in the season at the Junior Grand Prix Final, the person that won, Dmitri Aliev, only did one quad and he still won and Alexander Samarin, who took second he did two quads. So I think I’m better off doing easier, simple stuff that is of more quality for now. Later, I want to do at least three or four quads.
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Krasnozhon stood up on the 4Lo in his Jr. Worlds FS but it was downgraded by the tech. panel. He went on to land 6 triples total in his FS, including both 3A.
Skateparent said:
Wow, impressed by the three wishes that Alex named: a pill to cure cancer, becoming neurosurgeon, and for his family to achieve their dreams especially his sisters
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Yes, I think his personality comes out well in the interview! :)

Krasnozhon finished a very respectable 8th overall in his first trip to Junior Worlds and set a new ISU personal best score (76.50) in the SP, landing 3Lo, 3A & 3Lz+3T with 3 level 4 spins: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5f0v0y

Good job to both Vincent and Alex K. on retaining 3 spots for Junior Worlds next year! Vincent's big win in Taipei also guarantees the maximum 14 JGP slots for the U.S. men. :respec:

ETA: It was a tough 2nd Junior Worlds for Andrew Torgashev (25th in SP) :( but hopefully he will bounce back next season.
 
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olympic said:
I recall reading a quote around the time of 4CCs that Jason had started practicing quads again, presumably the 4T. I think he will be OK

With regard to the conversations about Max upthread: He is in a bit of a quandary and I say that as someone who genuinely roots for him. Nathan and now Vincent can out-quad him, Joshua Farris looks sharp on the comeback trail landing 4T and 4S (Yes, it's just practice but that is something for someone who has been out and retired, and has new perspective). Jason and Adam can do 1 quad / attempt and score close to 270 points. Skating w/ a 4S in the SP and 2 4S in the LP, Max got 258 points on home soil at '15 SA and he hits a ceiling w/o amazing PCS. He has talked about a 4T but again, Nathan and Vincent are taking over as quad kings. Max's niche is disappearing but I hope he finds a way up and out.

I will say training a 4A in a harness is probably NOT the answer when he has other skating components to work on
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Adam and Jason still don't have quads.
 
^^ Do you have quads? :p Look, it is not for lack of trying extremely hard, and it's not as if they've never landed quads in competition or never been given credit for making quad revolutions and working their butts off. At the end of the day, all anyone can do is work their butts off. At Skate America 2016, I will never forget the beauty they each wrought and the stories they wove on the ice. Few skaters will ever have what Adam and Jason possess in spades! :kickass:

becca said:
I don't think all of this explains Chen landing four quads and losing Nationals last year. And yes that's who I think should of won.
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I expected that Max would win last year. But Adam worked hard and battled back, and looking back I think he deserved the win, particularly as Adam had skated well two back-to-back years and he was competing well internationally too and making an impact with his stylistic and music choices. Nathan was not quite ready to win it all last season. His body was not fully ready either. It was enough of a coup for Nathan to make Junior and Senior Worlds. The overall standings at Nationals were very close.

And no one can argue that all said, everything balanced out very well for Nathan who has himself said that he would have run into injury problems likely at Junior Worlds had he not experienced the injury at Nationals exhibition. The surgery and rehab helped Nathan to come back stronger and build up to where he was ready to train and quickly master more quads. It is the multiple quad mastery that has helped Nathan take the world by storm this season. :cheer2:

So all told, I thought Adam should have won Nationals in 2015, but now I'm glad Jason won that year. And now I'm glad that Adam won in 2015. Adam and Jason both went to Worlds in 2015 and got back a third spot held onto a third spot, which gave 3 U.S. men the opportunity to compete at Boston Worlds (Adam, Max, Grant). And they all acquitted themselves well landing in the top ten, despite unfairly having a third spot taken away by judges' whims. Okay, it happened, and now let the new generation of U.S. men delight in grabbing their opportunities to not be so easily dismissed! :D
 
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^^ Ah yes, thanks for the correction. In that difficult Worlds environment, keepin' the third spot was no meager feat. Holding onto it at 2015 Worlds was like winning it back all over again. :D

Unfortunately, Josh didn't do as well as expected after winning the silver at 4CCs that year, so I kinda forgot he was at Worlds in 2015 too. Here's hoping Josh's next Worlds appearance will be more memorable. :40beers:
 
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toddlj said:
As awesome as Vincent's win was, Jason's season's best is still the 2nd highest for US men.
1. 307.46 - Nathan CHEN (ISU Four Continents Championships 2017)
8. 268.38 - Jason BROWN (ISU GP 2016 Progressive Skate America)
9. 267.53 - Adam RIPPON (ISU GP Trophee de France 2016)
11. 258.11 - Vincent ZHOU (ISU World Junior Championships 2017)
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This can't compare that fair

Different rules/restrictions for Vincent (as junior) and that score has to be taken not that serious since you add the home crowd boost in marks for Jason skating at SKATE AMERICA
 
^^ The thing is, skaters often are 'up' for skating at home too. Adam and Jason came prepared and they delivered. As much as a number of judges' scores at all events (especially raging and wrong PCS for many skaters) can be debated, as fans we simply have to accept the fact that the scoring results are quite 'serious' and set for all time in the record books. Agree or not. :D

Sylvia said:
ETA: It was a tough 2nd Junior Worlds for Andrew Torgashev (25th in SP) :( but hopefully he will bounce back next season.
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Yes, that was hard to witness. But every experience is an opportunity to learn. It seems to have been hard for Andrew to make a smooth transition from his season away rehabbing from injury. Hopefully, things will work out, as it seems he is putting too much pressure on himself or maybe feeling pressure from wanting to please his parents who are his coaches. Speculation on my part of course, and I hope I'm wrong.

The yips happen to everyone. Andrew clearly has enough talent to have landed in the top ten overall at least, but he lost too many points with popped jumping passes and a fall in the sp.

For next season, he definitely needs to find music more suited to his personality and current stage in his development as a skater. I can't wait to see the magic happen for him too. :) Hopefully, Andrew was inspired watching and cheering on Vincent in the stands.
 
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Does anyone even know how Jason is doing btw? I mean injury wise? I wonder if he'll be healthy enough to at least try a quad in the FS at Worlds. His attempts this fall before the injury looked pretty close.
 
Tavi said:
Ummm. Did y'all know that Riverdance has gone viral again, this time on Youtube? Two posts in the last month have a total of 8.4 million views; one of them has 5.7 million views and 106 thousand shares in the past week.

https://www.facebook.com/celticthunder/videos/10154912167861007/
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Wow, that was 3 years ago already?????

Has to go down as one of the all time great moments at a USA Nationals....

He looks so young...

The spins, the choreo, transitions... SO GOOD!!!!!!
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
I kinda think it WAS THE USA with the first WORLDWIDE mega-quad prodigy.... Tim GOEBEL...

He was the first to do the multiple Quads in a free. Did the USFSA hype and market him efficiently??
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I had the impression that the USFSA was totally behind Tim, though I think they understandably tried to get him to improve the rest of his skating. Other than quads, Tim wasn't even close to being in the same league as Weiss and Eldredge. Also, IMO, Tim was not nearly as good as Nathan or Vincent. And I'm not talking about the number, difficulty, and quality of quads. And I'm far from a Nathan or Vincent uber.
 
I certainly remember fluff pieces about Goebel during the beginning of his career and hearing the hype about him being the "Quad King". I'm sure someone higher up somewhere monikered that term as a marketing tool.

I think the USFS was totally preparing Tim to be USA no. 1 after he won the Olympic bronze and two world silvers in a row if not before. I'm sure some members of USFS thought it was only a matter of time for Tim to hit his stride and be a top contender before the 2001-2002 season as well. I mean how could they not when he won Nationals in the 2000-2001 season, placed 4th at 2001 Worlds, and was the first man to ever land a quad salchow and first man to land 3 quads in one program earlier? He just had stiff competition from Todd Eldredge, who returned after two years of not competing at Nationals, and Michael Weiss, both of whom won the previous three world bronze medals. He was the only one of the three who competed at every Worlds that Olympic cycle, he just placed low at his first two Worlds.

The 2003-2004 season started out nicely for him with a gold and silver at his GP events but he had to withdraw from the GPF (allowing Sandhu to compete and win), then he withdrew from Nationals. At 2004 Worlds, Weir and Weiss placed a respectable 5th and 6th. Then Goebel came back next season, won the silver at NHK and won silver at the 2005 Nationals, but placed 10th at the first IJS Worlds being overshadowed by surprise bronze medalist Evan Lysaceck and Johnny Weir who placed 4th. Then he placed 6th at Skate America, 4th at Bompard, and 7th at Nationals where publicly stated he felt he wasted his time (I'm sure it was just an emotional response after not making it to his second Olympic team). I do remember that by 2006, many fans were sort of over Tim and moved on to other skaters like Weir, Lysaceck, Savoie and even Jahnke.

I'm sure competing against Weiss/Eldredge and then Weir/Lysaceck, being plagued with injuries, needing to be a complete skater under 6.0, having issues with Frank Carroll who also had a rising Lysaceck, and then dealing with spin and footwork levels and itemized PCS categories under IJS and losing his consistency and thus his quad advantage all played a part in how Goebel's career ended up.
 
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I don't think deriding the most successful U.S. men's skaters of the past three Olympics has done the modern generation any good. As far as I recall, Timothy landed three quads in a free program a decade and a half before another American man could do it. He did it in the big competition. He did it without the reigning National or any World title in his resume. And he finished in the top three again a year later. He proved the value of learning the jumps early. He skated at the same time as two of the toughest competitors ever to compete within the men's discipline.

His skating & spinning skills (especially the spinning skills) were more like Nam at that time than like Nathan. But Nam finished fifth at Worlds only 2 years ago. Timothy would have beaten him. Tim improved his skating & spinning skills later in his career. Without the jumps, he never reaped the benefits; but he did work on his weaknesses and you could see that improvement later.

In 2002, there was essentially one spot available on that podium. Everyone--except possibly Scott Hamilton--knew it. The pressure for that bronze was unlike any I've ever seen for a bronze medal in the men's competition. Timothy landed it.
 
I think Tim was unlucky with his injuries which also probably contributed to off-ice issues that didn't help him mentally. If he was healthy throughout that season or at least in 2002-2003 shape, I could see a program of his with landed quads that he was consistent with beforehand doing well at the 2006 Olympics and making him a serious contender for a medal despite whatever deficiencies he may have had against the likes of Lambiel, Buttle, Lysaceck, and Weir among others just based on how messy that Olympics was for almost all the men who were not Plushenko. His LP score at 2005 Worlds wasn't that far behind Lysaceck and Weir's and I mean can we honestly say Joubert was a more complete skater than Goebel at that time? I mean Joubert was handsome and had a great butt and didn't have Tim's curved back, but a healthy in-shape Goebel was probably just as good in the elements.
 
Jayar said:
I am not sure why there is criticism about Adam's win last season. He followed it up by being the top ranked American at Worlds where he did get strong PCSs. His performances at Nationals were worthy of the title, even if some thought that Nathan should have won. Personally, I think it worked out for the best-- Adam got a title, Nathan got a medal that made him hungry, and now the US has a bona fide Olympic medalist contender.
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IF Nathan had been healthy, I don't think Adam would have been the top man at Worlds. IF Nathan skated like he did at Nationals.. And I have a hard time thinking Nathan wouldn't have been hungry I think he wants an Olympic medal not just a US title.

For me its about rewarding when someone does something great-and the first US man to land four quads-is something great.
 
becca said:
IF Nathan had been healthy, I don't think Adam would have been the top man at Worlds. IF Nathan skated like he did at Nationals.. And I have a hard time thinking Nathan wouldn't have been hungry I think he wants an Olympic medal not just a US title.

For me its about rewarding when someone does something great-and the first US man to land four quads-is something great.
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Meh. Coulda woulda shoulda. Nathan did get injured, so we'll never know. Just like we'll never know what would have happened had Jason stayed healthy last year and this. And if Adam competed in Kansas City. And Josh Farris. And Jeremy Abbott.
 
Jayar said:
Meh. Coulda woulda shoulda. Nathan did get injured, so we'll never know. Just like we'll never know what would have happened had Jason stayed healthy last year and this. And if Adam competed in Kansas City. And Josh Farris. And Jeremy Abbott.
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Once again I was saying how it was ridiculous that Adam beat Nathan at Nationals that year. And you say well Adam's placement at Worlds proves the decision was right.

How does Adam's placement do that when Nathan wasn't even at worlds.

And for the record, I think the overall results of this year-prove me right.

Rippon didn't exactly go to worlds and get those kind of PCS did he? And while I think he was top six is a good placement its not spectacular. But once again the overinflated GOE (and it was) and overinflated PCS did not happen for him at Worlds.


Chen though went on later on in the year to medal at the GPF (beating Fernandez) and a little over a year later actually beat Hanyu?

Part of the reason people like me were screaming is because we felt in Nathan they finally had a guy who could compete with the top guns-so why not anoint him and start supporting him ASAP.

I think we were proved right.
 
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