U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[Tavi]

Anyone think that Zhou should skip Warsaw? It's so soon after a shaky performance, plus he is in the GPF where he will compete his programs again before Nationals and the Olympics.

I think it depends on why they scheduled Warsaw and what impacted his skate at NHK. If he was suffering from bad jet lag at NHK or could benefit from extra recovery time, it might make sense for him to cancel Warsaw. While Nathan and Vincent are different people, Nathan bounced right back after doing less than his best at Skate America despite the short turnaround. So I don’t think that’s necessarily a reason for Vincent to cancel - just that it depends on whether he thinks it will benefit him.

ETA, if he anticipates being assigned to skate the team event FS, given that the individual SP starts a few days later. he may want to get some experience in pacing himself.

 

[mtnskater]

Look around the mens competition. Qs and >s are not uncommon. It happens to many skaters and if prerotation calls had been adopted with the q, Uno’s TES would have fallen by thirty or so points as well.

This ^ Shoma’s jump technique is super wonky with hooked low landings and prerotation. I’m always amazed at how few calls he receives.

Also I see nothing wrong or inherently sinister in Tom Z’s post. He’s super happy that his skater made his first GPF in an Olympic year. I’m super happy for Vincent too.

 

[angi]

Nobody is forgetting that. It’s what his detractors keep bringing over and over again. We all know that. But guess what? Vincent won a junior world title before the “q” was implemented. And you know what? He won a World Bronze medal before the “q” was implemented again and when they introduced a post-2018 rule that made it harsher to receive a clean rotation call (at a quarter was now under).

Look around the mens competition. Qs and >s are not uncommon. It happens to many skaters and if prerotation calls had been adopted with the q, Uno’s TES would have fallen by thirty or so points as well.

After Nathan, who else is out there that can compete with his best? Even at his worst he’s scoring better than most of other US men can. He scored a 162 in the LP for this horrible skate. Look at what most of the Olympic team contenders are capable of scoring at their worst. In fact, look at what their typical range of scores are.

People are forgetting to look at the facts and are pushing myths and perceptions off as facts.

I really don't get why are you being so defensive, I merely stated the calls his jumps got as they were on the protocols. I agree that there's no need for the gloom and doom approach when it comes to Vincent having one "off" event, but at the same time, Vincent's tight landings are always an issue, not only when he is having an off day.
When most of his jumps are clean he wins stuff as you mentioned, but when they are not - it's a mess as it was this weekend. Most skaters have weaknesses - and this one is Vincent's weakness.
As for other skaters, you are right that there were other calls at this event, the only two skaters who didn't get any calls are Uno (who probably should have gotten a 'q' on his 4Lo) and Samrin. The issue is that while most skaters will get 2-3 calls at the most, Vincent can get them on all six passes (well five, one was a 1Lz) and have just one clean jump. Rotations are his biggest weakness and while he is showing some great improvements (in all areas btw), it's still lingering and probably always will.
This is not a myth, everything I wrote here is backed up by protocols. As for who can compete with Nathan, several others can when they are clean or close to it, however like Vincent, no other man aside from Nathan actually manages to consistently go clean (and Vincent can't either, as I mentioned he had several calls at Skate America too).

 

[Jayar]

QQ-- Did Malinin get the senior minimum for the SP in Austria?

 

[sk9tingfan]

QQ-- Did Malinin get the senior minimum for the SP in Austria?

I believe that there was a previous post that he did not.

 

[Karen-W]

QQ-- Did Malinin get the senior minimum for the SP in Austria?

He missed the SP Worlds TES by .22 but he got the FS TES. So, he's eligible for 4CCs and the Olympics at this time - which pretty much guarantees that if he finishes top 5 at Nationals, he will be sent to 4CCs for another chance to get his SP Worlds min.

 

[canbelto]

Idg why some people are so happy that Vincent had a bad skate. It happens to everyone (even Nathan Chen). Vincent has a great shot at a GPF and Olympic medal still.

 

[Tahuu]

Anyone think that Zhou should skip Warsaw? It's so soon after a shaky performance, plus he is in the GPF where he will compete his programs again before Nationals and the Olympics.

Vincent can get 50 world standing points if he wins Warsaw. If he wins silver at GPF he gets another 720 points. He’ll then have 2250, which places him at number 7 over Rizzo at 2245. If someone at the top would miss the Olympics, Vincent could be in the final group for the SP. Every point counts.

Rizzo likely will do European. So I predict Vincent may go to 4CC.

 

[Sylvia]

Not the official senior international debut Ilia Malinin was hoping for in Graz earlier today - in 13th place (67.58) of 28 men and his jumps were called 4Lz< fall, 4T<+3T & 3Aq (step out). Two L4 spins but L2 on steps & final spin.
33.78 TES means he got the SP minimum for 4CC/Olys but just missed the 34 SP minimum for Worlds.
He will skate last #16 in group 3 (of 5 FS groups) tomorrow.

Today [11/13] Ilia pulled up from 13th to win the BRONZE! He scored 222.55 total in his ISU Challenger debut, 154.97 2nd in FS (85.77 TES/70.20 PCS).

I can't access the protocols yet but his jumps were: 4Lz, 4T fall, 3A, 4S off-balance, 4T+1Eu+3S, 3Lz+3T, 3Lz+3Lo.

Malinin's jumps in his FS protocol:
4Lz (+3.45 GOE) = 14.95 points
4T< (-3.80) fall = 3.80
3Aq (-0.80) = 7.20
4S (-2.13) = 7.57
4T<+1Eu+3Sq (-1.82) = 11.82
3Lz+3T = 12.05
3Lz+3Loq (-1.65) = 10.23
All level 4 spins; L2 steps

ETA: ISU SB total scores list has been updated with NHK Trophy scores but not CS Austria yet.

Top 6 U.S. men as of today:
1 Nathan CHEN USA ISU GP Skate Canada International 2021 30/10/2021 307.18 S
2 Vincent ZHOU USA ISU GP Guaranteed Rate Skate America 2021 23/10/2021 295.56 S
8 Jason BROWN USA ISU CS Finlandia Trophy 2021 08/10/2021 262.52 S
18 Ilia MALININ USA ISU JGP Cup of Austria 2021 08/10/2021 245.35 J
32 Jimmy MA USA ISU GP Guaranteed Rate Skate America 2021 23/10/2021 228.12 S
39 (will be 40) Tomoki HIWATASHI USA ISU GP Skate Canada International 2021 30/10/2021 221.77 S

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Idg why some people are so happy that Vincent had a bad skate. It happens to everyone (even Nathan Chen). Vincent has a great shot at a GPF and Olympic medal still.

Some are obsessed over Jason's clear 3rd spot being threatened by any dark horse talk. They know he can't overtake Nathan so they take as many potshots at Vincent as they can. Yes, anything can happen but Nathan, Vincent and Jason have been very clear skaters 1-3 for a long time now. I don't really see that changing that much. I think the guys coming up will probably get 4CC's to help them get a head start on being the next generation. I don't see any of the current top 3 staying past this cycle even though I would love it.

 

[Karen-W]

39 (will be 40) Tomoki HIWATASHI USA ISU GP Skate Canada International 2021 30/10/2021 221.77 S

Won't he be 42 since the gold & silver medalists at CS Austria obviously scored higher than 221.77 (as did Malinin who I assume you're accounting for in saying that Hiwatashi will drop a spot once the CS Austria results are added)?

 

[Sylvia]

Won't he be 42 since the gold & silver medalists at CS Austria obviously scored higher than 221.77

Egadze already was higher before he improved his SB score in Graz; I accounted for silver medalist Honda's score.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Anyone think that Zhou should skip Warsaw? It's so soon after a shaky performance, plus he is in the GPF where he will compete his programs again before Nationals and the Olympics.

I agree. It's already a long Oly season. He started in the summer, won Nebelhorn, on and on. More worried that he'll injure himself.

 

[olympic]

Vincent can get 50 world standing points if he wins Warsaw. If he wins silver at GPF he gets another 720 points. He’ll then have 2250, which places him at number 7 over Rizzo at 2245. If someone at the top would miss the Olympics, Vincent could be in the final group for the SP. Every point counts.

Rizzo likely will do European. So I predict Vincent may go to 4CC.

Vincent Zhou at 4CC's? No way. Too close to the Olympics

 

[Karen-W]

Vincent Zhou at 4CC's? No way. Too close to the Olympics

Plus the USFS has already announced that none of our Olympic team members will be assigned to 4CCs.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Vincent can get 50 world standing points if he wins Warsaw. If he wins silver at GPF he gets another 720 points. He’ll then have 2250, which places him at number 7 over Rizzo at 2245. If someone at the top would miss the Olympics, Vincent could be in the final group for the SP. Every point counts.

Rizzo likely will do European. So I predict Vincent may go to 4CC.

Too much made of skate order. If he doesn his job he'll be in the final flight for the Oly FS. More concerned of potential for injury preparing/doing another competition.

 

[olympic]

I think it depends on why they scheduled Warsaw and what impacted his skate at NHK. If he was suffering from bad jet lag at NHK or could benefit from extra recovery time, it might make sense for him to cancel Warsaw. While Nathan and Vincent are different people, Nathan bounced right back after doing less than his best at Skate America despite the short turnaround. So I don’t think that’s necessarily a reason for Vincent to cancel - just that it depends on whether he thinks it will benefit him.

ETA, if he anticipates being assigned to skate the team event FS, given that the individual SP starts a few days later. he may want to get some experience in pacing himself.

This a well-thought-out post and involves a certain amount of strategy. I suppose Vincent should do Warsaw if he isn't tired, but if there are any body issues from aches and pains to potential injury, he needs to back off.


ETA - He should have pulled a Nathan and just tripled the Lutz instead of completely popping it. That would've been 6-7 points more. LOL

 

[skateboy]

More concerned of potential for injury preparing/doing another competition.

I've heard fans make this statement quite often, regarding a variety of skaters, and I don't understand it.

A skater's preparation -- i.e., doing multiple jumps and elements on a daily basis -- does not come to a halt just because a competition isn't around the corner. Especially in an Olympic year.

 

[skateboy]

I’ve noticed that a lot of people are reactionary, in that if Vincent or another skater has had a less than stellar skate, they immediately start predicting doom and gloom, and as soon as the skater bounces back, it’s back to “he is an Olympic medal contender.” I don’t know where it comes from, but it is kind of silly.

This. THIS. 1000 x this.

 

[skatingguy]

This ^ Shoma’s jump technique is super wonky with hooked low landings and prerotation. I’m always amazed at how few calls he receives.

Uno doesn't generally under-rotate his jumps, he pre-rotates them as you said, and over-rotates them sometimes as well.

 

[Willin]

TBH I don't think that third spot is Vincent vs Jason as much as Jason vs Ilia. I think Vincent and Nathan have clearly earned their spots. If Vincent's on he could get an Olympic medal and USFS knows that. They won't leave him off the team. I still think Ilia could get that third spot over Jason, but with Jason's Finlandia win and Skate Canada Silver compared to Ilia's Senior B bronze, I think Jason's spot is a lot more secure than it was 2 months ago.

 

[BittyBug]

If both Jason and Ilia skate to their potential, I still think the nod goes to Jason. Brown is a more balanced skater, so if his jumps escape him, he can at least rack up points with other elements and PCS. Malinin is not quite there yet, although he certainly appears poised to become US #1 after the current guys retire.

 

[missing]

Philip Hersh
@olyphil

Zakrasjek said Vincent Zhou, whom he also coaches, also is out of Warsaw Cup. After stumbling to 6th in FS (2d overall) in free at #NHKTrophy, Zhou said: “I was not able to train consistently leading up to this competition and it showed. . ."

4/ “... I need to make sure I am in better health and condition for my next competition.” That would be the Grand Prix Final Dec. 9-12 in Osaka, Japan.

5 / Zakrasjek explained that since winning Skate America Zhou had a cold, eye infection and leg pain from boot issues: “So training has been a struggle. I am really proud of how he persevered through these past several weeks. Obviously, Warsaw is not an option for these reasons.”

 

[Dobre]

Vincent started the season very early, and I don't think it's a surprise that he's going to need some time. I think it's a good idea to take it and recharge.

Let's all stay healthy, people.

There will very likely be an available berth or more at Worlds. I think this would be a very big opportunity for any of the guys outside the current top 3.

 

[Rukia]

The endless handwringing in this thread is truly something. The three best will get sent. About halfway to Nats, it seems likely the 3 best will be Nathan, Vincent, and Jason. Yes things could happen between now and then, but until such time this is how is stands. US mens selection is going to be the easiest (with dance a close second, the only potential hang-up there will be that third spot considering we have yet to see H/B skate this season).

 

[toddlj]

On Vincent's really bad weekend, where he bombed and got lots of >'s and q's, he "only" got silver at NHK.

I'll take it.

 

[Jammers]

On Vincent's really bad weekend, where he bombed and got lots of >'s and q's, he "only" got silver at NHK.

I'll take it.

Yeah especially considering he hadn't won a single GP medal until this season.

 

[Marco]

Top 6 U.S. men as of today:
1 Nathan CHEN USA ISU GP Skate Canada International 2021 30/10/2021 307.18 S
2 Vincent ZHOU USA ISU GP Guaranteed Rate Skate America 2021 23/10/2021 295.56 S
8 Jason BROWN USA ISU CS Finlandia Trophy 2021 08/10/2021 262.52 S
18 Ilia MALININ USA ISU JGP Cup of Austria 2021 08/10/2021 245.35 J

So as at today, the 3rd spot is likely to be between Jason and Ilia. Obviously there is still a gap between their SBs. I don't know if Ilia gets another shot at an international before Nationals - but let's say Nationals results get close when Jason doesn't land a quad and Ilia lands like 6 of them, my gut says send Ilia to the Olympics.

Neither Jason nor Ilia would contend for a medal at the Olympics and won't be named to the Team Event anyways, I say send the up and coming guy for experience. Jason had his shot and medal in 2014. He is stunning to watch but he just isn't going to land a quad if he hasn't done it in the many years that he tried and failed - he is essentially landing the same jumps as he did in 2014, whereas the rest of the field are landing 3 or 4 quads at least, at least 1 or 2 higher tier quads. His competitive trajectory isn't upwards. Also, both Nathan and Vincent have been to 2 Olympics too and have somewhat expressed interest to lighten up their loads / move on to college etc. - the next generation needs this experience. It is a bit upsetting that the last generation of Alexei K, Camden, Tomoki etc. didn't get to make a bigger impact in the senior international scene in the past few seasons.

 

[Sylvia]

So as at today, the 3rd spot is likely to be between Jason and Ilia. Obviously there is still a gap between their SBs. I don't know if Ilia gets another shot at an international before Nationals

Malinin's next international will be the JGP Final in Osaka, Japan. His ISU SB total is still from his JGP in Linz, Austria - he scored "only" 222.55 total in his ISU Challenger debut in Graz, Austria this weekend, as mentioned above.

The endless handwringing in this thread is truly something.

Haha. Jason has an opportunity to qualify for the GP Final if he wins at least the silver at IdF in Grenoble next week.

 

[zebobes]

Malinin's next international will be the JGP Final in Osaka, Japan. His ISU SB total is still from his JGP in Linz, Austria - he scored "only" 222.55 total in his ISU Challenger debut in Graz, Austria this weekend, as mentioned above.

Haha. Jason has an opportunity to qualify for the GP Final if he wins at least the silver at IdF in Grenoble next week.

Jason at the moment looks like he has a high chance of making it at the moment. If Jason does make the GP Final, do you think it would actually be good of him to go? He made the GP Final four years ago (With both Javi and Yuzu having issues during the GP season), and for athletes who don't consistently make the GP Final, I feel like it's often hard for them to adjust to having that extra competition (which I think is also smart that the USFS tries to send out their top athletes that week to a different competition if they miss the GP Final, so that they learn to adjust to having that extra competition.) Jason had a poor showing four years ago, and that led to him eventually not making the team.