U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[jlai]

Wow, what a hit piece on Vincent. It really is the Olympic season. People forget that without the q, there may not be any call. Look at 2019 Worlds and other competitions where his rotations were tighter. So people are going out of their way to undermine Vincent. Let the politicking again.

If Uno medals at the gpf, I think there may be a campaign for prerotations to be dinged as well.

In all honesty, over, under, pre, they all should be dinged.

 

[VGThuy]

If Uno medals at the gpf, I think there may be a campaign for prerotations to be dinged as well.

In all honesty, over, under, pre, they all should be dinged.

I also would like more emphasis on other things outside of just rotation as well because it’s becoming super obsessive and ridiculous and beyond human determination. If they want things to be so exact to the exact degree, then they need to invent technology to objectively determine these things. This is just something else humans with various motives can manipulate further.

 

[misskarne]

Good technique, and the effort to obtain it, should be rewarded. The q punishes good technique because it rewards bad and sloppy technique. A skater putting in the effort to eradicate URs or make sure they are properly rotating might well look at a sheet full of qs and say, why bother fixing this? I'm not getting punished for it. Replacing those q calls with proper < calls and the resultant score hit adds incentive for skaters and their coaches to put in the effort.

I don't think the q was brought in solely because of Zhou. I do think anyone who claims he hasn't benefited from it is absolutely kidding themselves, though.

 

[toddlj]

Anyone who things Zhou isn't putting in effort to eliminate his under-rotation calls isn't paying attention.

 

[VGThuy]

Good technique, and the effort to obtain it, should be rewarded. The q punishes good technique because it rewards bad and sloppy technique. A skater putting in the effort to eradicate URs or make sure they are properly rotating might well look at a sheet full of qs and say, why bother fixing this? I'm not getting punished for it. Replacing those q calls with proper < calls and the resultant score hit adds incentive for skaters and their coaches to put in the effort.

I don't think the q was brought in solely because of Zhou. I do think anyone who claims he hasn't benefited from it is absolutely kidding themselves, though.

It’s half and half. Some of the Qs he received could have easily been jumps that would otherwise be called clean and other Qs could have been >. It’s not like his best successes thus far haven’t been from the pre-Q period because they have been. It seems to me that the Q is given when the tech panel thinks a jump is clean enough to be called completed but they want the judges to give it a negative GOE.

And if you think Vincent isn’t working hard then you really have such a low opinion of him. It’s not like he wants to be scrutinized. You act like he’s doing it on purpose and isn’t putting hours upon hours into training everyday to fix his shortcomings. It’s just that quads are that hard. Sometimes I think fans think skating is as easy as flipping a pen and making it twist in the air. It’s brutal physical work and every skater has had real > and Q calls. Some skaters know that all too well and we know if they attempted more quads they’d be given worse calls than Zhou.

Sometimes I think there’s an upside down world where Zhou gets reprimanded and ridiculed for being about a quarter off on bad days or just a bit over meaning he’s closer to the quad than not than other skaters who can’t even attempt the number and variety of quads he does and can’t even land their triples consistently. But hey, when they fall on their triples or pop their jumps they’re fully rotated (apparently) so good for them.

 

[misskarne]

I think he's working hard. I know it's a hard problem to fix. But it's really not "50/50". Last weekend every single jump pass in his FS had a problem - and it's not the first time that's happened. That's not just "oh he's trying harder quads so of course he's UR", that's him having problems with his triples.

I think some, at best, poorly worded remarks from him and his team on the subject haven't left a great impression. It gave the feeling his team blamed the rules for the UR calls, rather than...his technique. Zakrasjek's "ballerina ankles" remark still gets a lot of (well-deserved) mockery online.

But at least this has driven the conversation away from the absolutely ridiculously stupid suggestion a couple of pages back that if Jason should qualify for GPF (which he is likely to do) he should withdraw...yikes.

 

[Impromptu]

Then don't bring it up again.

 

[jlai]

I also would like more emphasis on other things outside of just rotation as well because it’s becoming super obsessive and ridiculous and beyond human determination. If they want things to be so exact to the exact degree, then they need to invent technology to objectively determine these things. This is just something else humans with various motives can manipulate further.

Perhaps a dumb question, what else is there to ding other than rotations? We already do edge calls.

 

[BittyBug]

Perhaps a dumb question, what else is there to ding other than rotations? We already do edge calls.

Take off, air position, landings, all of which are frequently ignored.

 

[jlai]

Take off, air position, landings, all of which are frequently ignored.

But that's the thing--prerotation means poor takeoff, and poor landings already gets negative goe, including handdown, falls, etc?

So if we ding prerotation, underrotation, edge calls, and poor landings (e.g. handdown, falls, two foots, etc), what other items do we need for the deduction (asking because I honestly don't know)

Not sure what you mean by poor air positions that doesn't result in a bad landing or poorly rotated jump. Is there an example? Like leg wrap?

 

[Karen-W]

But that's the thing--prerotation means poor takeoff, and poor landings already gets negative goe, including handdown, falls, etc?

So if we ding prerotation, underrotation, edge calls, and poor landings (e.g. handdown, falls, two foots, etc), what other items do we need for the deduction (asking because I honestly don't know)

Not sure what you mean by poor air positions that doesn't result in a bad landing or poorly rotated jump. Is there an example? Like leg wrap?

Do they? What about when a skater like Shcherbakova is pitched forward or bent at the waist on the landing and the GOE is still +2 or +3? It was pretty appalling at GP Italia a couple weeks ago to see her wonky landings garnering positive GOEs.

 

[BittyBug]

Just going off the top of my head, in addition to pre-rotation, takeoff issues could include a wrong edge or assisted blade takeoff (vault jump that takes off from a full blade rather than toe pick so it's more of a loop than a flip or lutz).

Air position would include not only a wrap but also being off axis.

Landing issues would also include landing on an inside edge. So it's not just rotational stuff. And then there's also entrance issues like mule kicks.

 

[clairecloutier]

Phil Hersh just tweeted that there will be major changes to Nathan's programs before the GPF. This is per Raf.

 

[Karen-W]

Phil Hersh just tweeted that there will be major changes to Nathan's programs before the GPF. This is per Raf.

Well, everyone who saw them at SkAm and SCI were begging for that. Let's just hope this doesn't become a situation of "careful what you wish for."

 

[VGThuy]

Well, everyone who saw them at SkAm and SCI were begging for that. Let's just hope this doesn't become a situation of "careful what you wish for."

Yes, let’s hope!

 

[jlai]

Just going off the top of my head, in addition to pre-rotation, takeoff issues could include a wrong edge or assisted blade takeoff (vault jump that takes off from a full blade rather than toe pick so it's more of a loop than a flip or lutz).

Air position would include not only a wrap but also being off axis.

Landing issues would also include landing on an inside edge. So it's not just rotational stuff. And then there's also entrance issues like mule kicks.

There is a wrong edge takeoff already. Assisted blade takeoff is kinda hard to judge isn't it? At what point is the loop and sal so bad that it is an assisted blade? Or perhaps someone who skates will know that though.
Leg wraps don't get deductions but almost all skaters we remember with a bad leg wrap got rotation issues and got dinged that way, post cop, don't they? Same goes for off axis which may result in a wondy landing.

As for the wondy landings, @Karen-W, I think this falls under the skating order and reputation trumps perception category. A skater with less reputation will get the negative goe. So it's not that it is not taken off, it's more like a skater with reputation gets called less, for everything across the board.

to see her wonky landings garnering positive GOEs.

 

[olympic]

Elements of a jump - takeoff (edge and pre-rotation), in-air body position, landing (UR / DG and body position). The body positions should definitely affect GOE, and UR / DGs are already affecting BV. Not sure what to do about pre-rotation. Also a penalty?

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Elements of a jump - takeoff (edge and pre-rotation), in-air body position, landing (UR / DG and body position). The body positions should definitely affect GOE, and UR / DGs are already affecting BV. Not sure what to do about pre-rotation. Also a penalty?

The pre rotations I hate are the crossed leg ones. The vaulting leg crosses over the free leg just before take off. You are facing backwards before the skate leaves the ice. It's a clear cheat. Treat as a fall? Would affect a lot of skaters.

 

[Sylvia]

I found 2 older but still pertinent threads in GSD for folks interested in continuing the discussion in either?

The ISU's New Set Of Judging Rules For Jumps

The ISU has released the rule changes for next season. Jump elements in singles skating not executed according to requirements will receive a -5 GOE. https://twitter.com/ifsmagazine/status/1259845205978726402

www.fsuniverse.net

or

POV for Assessing Jump Rotation

The people have spoken, here's a new thread: I'm sorry if I'm opening up a can of worms here and maybe it's obvious to others, but what would folks consider the appropriate angle(s) to view a jump and assess rotation? Is it one perspective, or multiple? And if multiple, which ones (and how...

www.fsuniverse.net

I think I saw Max skipping rope the other night while watching the Norwood qualifying competition ... hopefully he is decently on the road to recovery from whatever injury happened this season.

Such a shame that he's had to miss his fall events after such a strong early showing at Cranberry Cup (and some good moments at U.S. Classic too).

USFS' press release on Monday, Nov. 15 confimed Maxim Naumov's withdrawal from what would have been his GP debut at Rostelecom Cup but didn't specify his injury: https://www.usfigureskating.org/news/press-release/maxim-naumov-withdraws-2021-rostelecom-cup

Busy week ahead for U.S. Men!
Jason is in Grenoble; Jimmy Ma & Eric Sjoberg will compete in CS Warsaw Cup; final 2 qualifying competitions in Alpharetta, GA and Spokane, WA will determine the Senior & Junior men for Nationals.

 

[VGThuy]

I found 2 older but still pertinent threads in GSD for folks interested in continuing the discussion in either?

The ISU's New Set Of Judging Rules For Jumps

The ISU has released the rule changes for next season. Jump elements in singles skating not executed according to requirements will receive a -5 GOE. https://twitter.com/ifsmagazine/status/1259845205978726402

www.fsuniverse.net

or

POV for Assessing Jump Rotation

The people have spoken, here's a new thread: I'm sorry if I'm opening up a can of worms here and maybe it's obvious to others, but what would folks consider the appropriate angle(s) to view a jump and assess rotation? Is it one perspective, or multiple? And if multiple, which ones (and how...

www.fsuniverse.net

USFS' press release on Monday, Nov. 15 confimed Maxim Naumov's withdrawal from what would have been his GP debut at Rostelecom Cup but didn't specify his injury: https://www.usfigureskating.org/news/press-release/maxim-naumov-withdraws-2021-rostelecom-cup

It's amazing how many conversations I've taken a part of that I've forgotten about...and how I've been parroting the same crap over and over again. Shows how much this sport hasn't fixed much of anything and how repetitive I am.

 

[Tavi]

Really nice article about Jason by one of FSU’s own. Among other things, he discusses the injury that kept him off ice for 6 weeks this summer.

Jason Brown Dreams of Perfect Programs - U.S. Figure Skating Fan Zone

In his nearly 10 years of international competition, Jason Brown did something in the off season that he has not done since he left home after graduating high school.

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

 

[mackiecat]

Communication 2334 says “the jump will receive full base value and the judges will reduce GOE” but no amount is specified. There may be something more specific elsewhere.

A q receives a -2 in GOE reduction. < is -2 to -3 ( with a reduced base value)

 

[angi]

A q receives a -2 in GOE reduction. < is -2 to -3 ( with a reduced base value)

Is it in the rules book that q receives a -2 GOE reduction? Because just to take a few examples from NHK:
Vincent's SP: 4Sq +0.28 GOE (ranged between +2 to -1), 3Aq -0.11 GOE (ranged between +1 to -2 but only one judge gave a -2)
Sota's SP: 3Aq +0.11 GOE (ranged between +1 to -1)
Makar's FS: 4Loq -1.05 (all but one judge gave it -1, one judge gave -2)
Kao's FS: 4Tq -1.80 GOE (ranged between 0 to -3)
Tomoki FS: 4Tq -1.90 GOE (all but one judge gave it -2, one judge gave -1)

There's a very big discrepancy between the scoring of q jumps, and I do think the scoring has to be more consistent.

 

[vu2019]

Is it in the rules book that q receives a -2 GOE reduction? Because just to take a few examples from NHK:
Vincent's SP: 4Sq +0.28 GOE (ranged between +2 to -1), 3Aq -0.11 GOE (ranged between +1 to -2 but only one judge gave a -2)
Sota's SP: 3Aq +0.11 GOE (ranged between +1 to -1)
Makar's FS: 4Loq -1.05 (all but one judge gave it -1, one judge gave -2)
Kao's FS: 4Tq -1.80 GOE (ranged between 0 to -3)
Tomoki FS: 4Tq -1.90 GOE (all but one judge gave it -2, one judge gave -1)

There's a very big discrepancy between the scoring of q jumps, and I do think the scoring has to be more consistent.

Here are the GOE guidelines that list the -2 reduction for a q and also the positive aspects and other reductions that judges are looking at. The final GOE of a jump is determined by taking all of that into account, so not all "q" jumps that are "landed" will get exactly a -2 GOE.

https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/24665-isu-communication-2334/file

 

[angi]

Here are the GOE guidelines that list the -2 reduction for a q and also the positive aspects and other reductions that judges are looking at. The final GOE of a jump is determined by taking all of that into account, so not all "q" jumps that are "landed" will get exactly a -2 GOE.

https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/24665-isu-communication-2334/file

I have to say I disagree, they stipulate several times that q jumps should receive -2. For me it's like a fall or another mistake, the jumps can tick several boxes for nice GOE (like good height, good length) but still, if it's a fall it's a mandatory -5. It should be the same for q jumps and perhaps I'm interpreting it the wrong way but what I understood from the rules is that q equals -2 if it was the only major error, and if say it was a q and two-foot landing, or a q and a fall, then it will be even lower.

 

[VGThuy]

It says reduction of -2 not that the final GOE has to be -2. If they wanted jumps on a quarter to have a final GOE of -2, they would have made it explicit by saying final GOE and not call it a “reduction” like they did with the failure to complete an element in the SP. When they say reduction, they mean reduction from what your GOE would have been if not for the Q call. Some judges will disagree by 1-3 GOE points, especially in a +5|-5 point GOE system.

 

[angi]

It says reduction of -2 not that the final GOE has to be -2. If they wanted jumps on a quarter to have a final GOE of -2, they would have made it explicit by saying final GOE and not call it a “reduction” like they did with the failure to complete an element in the SP.

It also says the reduction of a fall is -5, and I think we can all agree that it's pretty final even if up until the fall the jump somehow deserved +4 GOE.
The fact that the same q jumps can get anything from +2 to -2 is a problem and mean that the rules are not clear enough (or at least not strict enough).

 

[Tavi]

Since GOE impacts all countries/disciplines, not just US men, can a separate thread be started to discuss this?

 

[VGThuy]

It also says the reduction of a fall is -5, and I think we can all agree that it's pretty final even if up until the fall the jump somehow deserved +4 GOE.
The fact that the same q jumps can get anything from +2 to -2 is a problem and mean that the rules are not clear enough (or at least not strict enough).

For falls on jumps, they also state the starting GOE can’t be higher than +2 so at most a skater can get with a fallen jump is -3 GOE. Most falls are pretty massive since the definition of a fall is pretty strict. There’s no ceiling to a GOE with a jump with a q call.

 

[skatfan]

It also says the reduction of a fall is -5, and I think we can all agree that it's pretty final even if up until the fall the jump somehow deserved +4 GOE.
The fact that the same q jumps can get anything from +2 to -2 is a problem and mean that the rules are not clear enough (or at least not strict enough).

They are clear and appropriate. A small jump with a bad landing versus a big jump with both height and length and a decent landing, even if they are both q, deserve different scores.