U.S. Ladies [#19]: Do You Know the Way to San Jose?

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"2 three turns in between (jump combo)" is supposed to be -2 GOE. Courtney did one 3-turn in between the 3F & 3Lo.

:confused: She most definetly did two 3-turns. One turn from the backwards landing of the 3F turning to forwards and another to get from forward to backward again to get into the 3L.

Anyhow, Courtney looks much improved. The lutz was a beauty. It was nice that she was able to maintain control on pretty much everything today. Her hard work is paying off :)
 
"2 three turns in between (jump combo)" is supposed to be -2 GOE. Courtney did one 3-turn in between the 3F & 3Lo.
She did two - RBO3 on the landing to RFI edge, then RFI3 to return to the RBO edge for the loop. One three turn is only 1/2 a rotation.

IMO there should be a bigger hit for that. Two jumps connected by a 3-turn is not a combination.

Fantastic 3lutz, 2axel, and much improved all around interpretation and choreography. Don't know what judge 6 was smoking to give her 5s PCS.
 
Wow, Karen has really got to step it up, no excuses. She could have been contending for a podium spot had she skated the way she's capable of. Hoorah for Courtney who I think should be ahead of Sotskova who is completely boring and was overscored on tech and PCS -- didn't the judges see Sotskova's URs? If it was someone the judges didn't like, they would have not given any credit for that botched 2-axel. They certainly hammered Honda for her tech mistakes, which granted were more egregious. But Sotskova should no way be that high on components. She has good skating skills, but she otherwise skates like a robot.

Karen has got some cred and rep over Courtney, and so with a spectacular skate, Karen would have been given the marks. I think the judges were keeping the scores way down to reserve the higher scores for Osmond and the Russians. Osmond skated beautifully, as did Pogorilaya. The point spread was a bit ridiculous though. :lol: It definitely seems clear to me that the judges at SC are trying to ensure Osmond has no one in the way preventing her from winning this one. Osmond skated with no pressure seemingly, but it certainly helps when the judges keep scores of others relatively low. With the way most of the competitors were being scored, the judges relented and were more generous with Pogo and especially Sotskova, but it's surprising that Pogo didn't get scores at least in the low 70s for that skate.

Sotskova is totally over-rated. And there's no way that Ashley Wagner should be behind Rika Hongo by any percentage points! Ashley made her rotations, but the judges were definitely stingy about giving Ash anything much. I give Courtney a lot of credit for pulling out that second triple in the beginning combo after not controlling her landing position too well on the first triple. To pull off that second triple as well as she did after the turnout, deserves more credit. Plus, Courtney definitely deserved more credit on PCS for her lovely choreography and improved artistry. Judges obviously do not care; they are so corrupt.
 
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Those judges were brutal to everyone (but Katelyn). TBH though Ashley didn't look as energetic in this program as she had in the past. I wasn't that impressed with her here. Maybe she needs to get back to borrowing Marissa's dress?

@Clutz I'd have to look up the official rule change, but it does still count as a combination. The hit comes on the GOE. I think they changed/clarified the GOE for each jump mistake (ie. fall vs. hand down vs. step out) before the season.
Marissa's dress is absolutely the secret to the success of that program. :40beers:
 
I hope Ashley rethinks that hair color and dress. Good job Courtney!
Oh I forgot about the hair. This is not a good look for her. Those fabulous features pop so much better with her regular color. The thing that bothered me the most about her hair was that the hair in the pony tail looked like it had been fried. It was brittle and messy looking.
 
Ashley did not make her rotations. They were visible in real time and extremely clear on the slow motion. The loop was just under a half cheated. She sneaked into < territory but it was awful close to <<

^^ Hmmm, it looked like Ashley made the rotations and I was listening to Eurosport guys who also thought she made the rotations. But yeah the judges are always nitpicky and hard on those who've had a rep for under-rotating. When it's close, the judges refuse to give skaters with UR reps the benefit of the doubt, particularly Ashley W and Mirai. I didn't see the slo-mo. Fair enough, as Ashley wasn't quite as sparkling with this recycled program as she can be.

OTOH, quite clearly the judges weren't so skimpy with Sotskova who clearly under-rotated her 2-axel. I see the judges took off on the 2-axel, but they were not harsh. And Sotskova is over-rated on PCS.

Looking at the protocols, the Canadian, Australian and Russian judges were overly harsh on Courtney's PCS, especially the Australian judge. The competing political interests' impact on the scoring is so obvious. Interestingly, Canadian and U.S. judges also seem to have blinders on re Sotskova on PCS! The Russian judge's scores for Sotskova on PCS matched the U.S. judge's marks, with the Canadian judge scoring Sotskova even higher in several categories. :duh: What the heck are they looking at? Sotskova should score well on skating skills but her choreo and interpretation are not the best -- average at best, as she's rather bland and boring, albeit intense and determined with her delivery and expressions.
 
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^^ Hmmm, it looked like Ashley made the rotations and I was listening to Eurosport guys who also thought she made the rotations. But yeah the judges are always nitpicky and hard on those who've had a rep for under-rotating.

Just slow motioned the slow motion on my extremely large screen tv. The jumps were under. Get over it. Ashley got great PCS and deserved it. The tech panel should be tough on jumps. It isn’t fair to those who do rotate. That last 1/3 of a rotation is the toughest part of the jump. Those who are clean should get the point difference.
 
^^ Hmmm, it looked like Ashley made the rotations and I was listening to Eurosport guys who also thought she made the rotations. But yeah the judges are always nitpicky and hard on those who've had a rep for under-rotating. When it's close, the judges refuse to give skaters with UR reps the benefit of the doubt, particularly Ashley W and Mirai. I didn't see the slo-mo. Fair enough, as Ashley wasn't quite as sparkling with this recycled program as she can be.

OTOH, quite clearly the judges weren't so skimpy with Sotskova who clearly under-rotated her 2-axel. I see the judges took off on the 2-axel, but they were not harsh. And Sotskova is over-rated on PCS.

Looking at the protocols, the Canadian, Australian and Russian judges were overly harsh on Courtney's PCS, especially the Australian judge. The competing political interests' impact on the scoring is so obvious. Interestingly, Canadian and U.S. judges also seem to have blinders on re Sotskova on PCS! The Russian judge's scores for Sotskova on PCS matched the U.S. judge's marks, with the Canadian judge scoring Sotskova even higher in several categories. :duh: What the heck are they looking at? Sotskova should score well on skating skills but her choreo and interpretation are not the best -- average at best, as she's rather bland and boring, albeit intense and determined with her delivery and expressions.

The judges don't mark the under-rotations, the technical panel does. The judges give GOE. I don't know why you keep syaing Sotskova didn't get hammered for her 2A, because it was marked as < and she got less than 2 points for that element. The calling was tough but fair. Both Sotskova and Wagner got < from the technical panel on the 2A and the 3T and 3Lo, respectively, and -GOE on all 3 elements. Maria DID rotate the back end of her combo and she got level 4 on two spins, which Ashley did not do. Ashley has been leaving points on the table with her spins for years.

Ashley was ahead on PCS, so I'm not sure what you're complaining about? Ashley's SP felt fresh a year ago but it's gotten old. Plus, it is pretty empty, and while selling a program has always been Ashley's strong suit, transitions and skating skills never have been.
 
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Sad to see Ashley look off in the comp - the combo was definitely not up to par, she looked rusty on the choreo, and her dress is completely wrong for the moves she's doing. She was fairly marked but sad that she is not in the final group.

Karen is doing ok and I have confidence she'll be at her top form soon.

And Courtney! Always nice to see someone come out of the shadows!
 
Under COP, that's not supposed to happen. :shuffle:

And I don’t think it happened here. My only complaint is I thought Hongbo score was high for what she did. That said, it is personal preference and probably not based on the rules :lol:
 
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Under COP, that's not supposed to happen. :shuffle:

You don't say. :lol: Obviously, it happens all the time in figure skating, regardless of the scoring system. The judges can follow the rules as the messy system allows and still reserve scores and manipulate PCS as they always do. Of course, the top-rated skaters have to perform or the reserving of scores doesn't always work. But Pogo and Osmond performed. In fact both were quite brilliant, Osmond moreso than Pogo, but the point spread is still laughable.

By reserving, I mean that the judges scored the first skaters a bit more harshly and kept the scores down in the lower range. Kailani Crane performed extremely well, but the judges were obviously reluctant to reward her. With the mid-range of scores just over 60, the judges clearly did not want to go too high and that's where we end up with several skaters almost tied. Perhaps if Courtney had skated later, she might have scored a bit higher for how well she skated. But a number of judges are clearly not giving Courtney credit for her obvious aesthetic improvements and her lovely choreography.

All credit to Sotskova for pulling what she can out of herself and for being Russian. That clearly helps. The judges could have hit Sotskova more harshly for her UR, but at least they took off something. The over-scoring of Sotskova on PCS is questionable, but then yeah she is Russian.

We can all see and believe what we will as we all do with this sport. Yet, quite clearly as usual, some of the scoring is questionable. The number of factors involved in the scoring allows the judges to work within a range. There are political assumptions and rating that happens even before skaters take the ice. The best skaters can do and they know it, is to perform to their highest level if they can, and then grin and bear it. And it follows that some end up having more to grin about than others. That's figure skating.
 
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Would someone like to start a thread in the Trash Can to discuss Grand Prix ladies? We already have threads for the other 3 disciplines, and discussions about any and all GP performances, results, judging, etc. could take place there.
 
Sad to see Ashley look off in the comp - the combo was definitely not up to par, she looked rusty on the choreo, and her dress is completely wrong for the moves she's doing. She was fairly marked but sad that she is not in the final group.

Karen is doing ok and I have confidence she'll be at her top form soon.

And Courtney! Always nice to see someone come out of the shadows!

I agree with you and @oleada Ash SP seemed a bit stale, and while I always love a brand new fresh costume Im not sure this dress fully goes with the music.

Was just odd to see Ash kinda give up on her last spin.... Yes, i know the spinning isn't her strong suit but to me she seemed like she just bailed on the last spin and said Bye Felicia.

JUST DONT understand why she didn't go out there and do a B to get the rust out, because it was well, rusty.

I love her tho and I feel she will climb to 5th or 4th tomorrow.
 
I agree with you and @oleada Ash SP seemed a bit stale, and while I always love a brand new fresh costume Im not sure this dress fully goes with the music.

Was just odd to see Ash kinda give up on her last spin.... Yes, i know the spinning isn't her strong suit but to me she seemed like she just bailed on the last spin and said Bye Felicia.

JUST DONT understand why she didn't go out there and do a B to get the rust out, because it was well, rusty.
She did do a small local comp, but I agree that she might have benefited from a challenger series comp, but only if she was ready.
 
And Courtney! Always nice to see someone come out of the shadows!

But Courtney has been out of the shadows for quite some time now. I mean seriously, this is not the first time that Courtney has performed better than people's low expectations of her. She's quite clearly very talented. She's quite clearly beaten other top-rated U.S. ladies before at past GPs.

For Courtney, like for many of the U.S. ladies, it's as usual a matter of them believing in their talent and taking that huge step to the next level consistently! Self belief, self belief and then just overcoming the jitters and performing like you own the ice and the entire arena.
 
I don't understand Ashley's strategy. She looks thrown together here. Not just the jumps. I would have thought she would have added complexity since it's a old program. It seemed a shadow of 2016. Is she waiting too long to get serious?

Please don't over-do the critiques. Give Ashley credit for how far she's come. None of us truly know what it takes unless we are athletes who have gone through the experience. She's been through a lot. She pulled herself up by her bootstraps when TPTB in US fed had totally given up on her and relegated her to the dustbin. She said, 'Oh no, not so quick. I have more that I can do, and much more that I want to accomplish. And I can. And I will.' And she did. And there were plenty of obstacles placed in her path. As well, Ash had to battle herself through many ups and downs. She did let some opportunities slip her grasp. And then she had to deal with the reality that Gracie Gold was technically better and more favored. Ashley weathered that challenge and actually prevailed at Worlds 2016, which was a huge accomplishment.

And apparently, it's very hard to come back after that, after having reached at least part of a long-held goal. I give Ashley some slack, because she received some unfair backlash for winning silver at 2016 Worlds. And at 2014 U.S. Nationals, she was lowballed in the sp (and sure she let herself down too), which hampered her at 2014 Olympics, where she actually skated very well. Unfortunately, she was not being highly regarded by the judges in Sochi due to all the fallout from the U.S. Nationals results.

Ya know, it is what it is. And ain't that the truth! We all find out what we're made of, and what we're able to overcome or not, one way or another.
 
Have to say that I think it's a smart move for Ashley to go back to Hip Hip, Chin Chin. It really suits her well and I like it more now than I did two years ago, probably because I thought Sweet Dreams was nothing but arm movements stolen from competetive pom routines. However, I could do without the walrus clap she added in the camel spin, I get the intention, it just looks really awkward and her spins don't need to be slowed down anymore than they already are. Speaking of which, that last layback was painfully slow. That said, it's a great program for her.

I feel like Karen's SP isn't quite soup yet. She's great with bold, fully extended moves which go wonderfully with her speed and power, but she hasn't got nuance (that little gesture at the end of the Ina aside) yet and sometimes it becomes pretty clear that she's not listening to the music but rotely executing a series of movements (which in a sense is always what is happening in any choreographed program, but that's not what you want to make it look like). Her footwork sequece was kind of a shambles (as evidence by the L3 she received).
 
Maybe Karen should have kept her last season's sp, which was superb. Oh but well, second guessing doesn't do anyone any favors. :) It's more believing in herself and putting it out there confidently that counts.
 
I feel like us ladies are perhaps encouraged to pursue jump lineups that were more respected under 6.0 on principal.

I don't know about that. But I will say, watching Karen yesterday, I found myself wondering if her team has sat down and done analysis on how well & consistently she hits 3Lz/3T in practice versus 2A/1Lp/3S. The latter is a really strong combination for her at times ... I just wonder if it's something that she could perhaps make more consistent in the SP. The thing is, base value of 3Lz/3T is 2 points higher, which is why everyone keeps going for that combo. And Karen can do it beautifully sometimes--she did quite a few great-looking 3Lz/3Ts in practice at SLC. But I just wonder how much they've looked at alternatives. I think of Gabrielle Daleman and Adelina Sotnikova--both have/had great success going for the easier 3T/3T combo in the SP.
 
This was actually one of Karen's "better" sp scores as of late (despite doing well at worlds and US international classic), remember her grand prix last year? :slinkaway I was happy at least that she was able to tack on a double toe to the loop, even though I'm not a fan of the tano, or the SP itself. I'm looking forward to seeing her new free. She seems like she's been having a lot of issues with the second lutz in her free recently, I'm curious to see how she'll do. Historically, she has seemed to do pretty well in the LP on the grand prix, though obviously expectations are a bit higher for her now after being 4th in the world.

Ashley was more or less what I expected here. It's still my favorite SP of hers, but I think her stock fell a bit after last year when she never really gained momentum. I was surprised that Tara picked her to win this week on the Ice Talk podcast. But the scores are pretty close after the short, so both Karen and Ashley have a chance to pull up. While I am in support of the short repeat, I'm dreading Moulin Rouge in the long. I'm sounding harsh, but I'm also judging her from the perspective of being marketed as the top US lady/having the most endorsements, etc.

Courtney's presentation is so much better than it was four years ago. But I too am "over" the three turns in the combo, and I feel like it should be dinged more. Props for coming out ahead of Ashley and Karen here, she always seems to pull out something random on the grand prix.
 
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What I find ironic is the US lady skating w/ the most attack is getting hammered the worst ((Mirai)).

US ladies are in a very strange state right now. We have a fairly deep field of talent, but Gold is out for personal reasons. Edmonds is recovering from what now appears to be an injury worse than originally thought. Chen is simply inconsistent period despite all her talent (I would call her one of the most potentially talented ladies in the world). Nagasu is wobbly while trying to balance a 3A w/ the rest of her program. Wagner almost seems disinterested. Hicks was great in the SP, but is this the beginning of something big or will she revert to the skater that continually cannot control her landings? Bell skates well but lately screws up at least one jumping pass, and doesn't have the international credibility to get away with it.

It's all quite frustrating.
 
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