U.S. Ladies [#18]: These Boots Are Made for Skating

[Sylvia]

Sadly I don't think we have more skaters that USFS wants to send. I've looked closely at the entries for the fourth and fifth JGP and they could've taken slots from GB and Sweden but didn't.

My unofficial hearsay info is that the ISU granted USA second ladies' slots for the first 3 JGPs only.

 

[jlai]

Based on summer results, US should have sent Vivian Le, and maybe Jenna Shi and Ashley Kim to get a minimum score somewhere. Since Hong and Huang get a jgp with a much lower summer score, I think USFS should at least give Le one. (Not sure Shi's and Kim's summer comp is considered one of the ones that should be considered or not. Sometimes you don't get the same kind of scoring in smaller competitions.)

No comment on whether Starr and Nguyen should get a jgp. A case can be made either way.

 

[Frida80]

My unofficial hearsay info is that the ISU granted USA second ladies' slots for the first 3 JGPs only.

We took China slots. I read over the rules very closely. The US is in group B and can get slots from others in group B and C that don't use their slots. In group B are USA, Germany, and Hong Kong. In group C are China, Sweden, Finland, and Great Britain. GB won't be send a lady in JGP #4 and Sweden won't be sending anyone to JGP #5. I didn't read anything about a limit to the number of slots that could be taken by a member. But based on the rules, the US could've assigned someone if they wanted to.


Edit. I just checked the list again. Great Britain has assigned someone to JGP #4. Perhaps they hadn't finalized their skater yet. Maybe the Sweeden spot is filled as well.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Final results from Brisbane:
5 Kaitlyn NGUYEN USA 161.42 6 5 (coached by Ivan Dinev & Angela Nikodinov)
...
5 Kaitlyn NGUYEN USA 107.15 57.78 49.37 6.29 5.93 6.14 6.21 6.29 0.00 #20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn4ydbmmQg8
She was credited with landing 5 of 7 triples cleanly.

@Sylvia did someone say ANGELA Nikodinov?

 

[Sylvia]

^^^ At least @AngieNikodinovLove finally noticed my mention of AN from last week.

@Frida80, I believe these are the relevant excerpts from the 2017/18 ISU JGP Announcement document (I've bolded the key parts below):

2.1 Men and Ladies
...
Additional Entries For Men and Ladies, if any ISU Member mentioned under a) to c) does not use its right to enter Skaters in the competition concerned, this entry will be given to the first ISU Member, mentioned under b) for an additional entry.
...
2.4 Procedure of Nominating and Deadline
The following procedure is necessary to control and to calculate points as well as to offer possible changes of non-used slots within the various events: a) Entries by number ISU Members must announce by June 15, 2017 at the latest, to the ISU Secretariat, their participants by number for all seven events of the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating. The official forms must to be used. The ISU Members must also announce by June 15, 2017 the disciplines and/or the events in which they were originally entitled to enter participants but will not use this right.
...
Based on the information received from the ISU Members, the ISU has informed the ISU Members concerned about changes or additional possibilities to enter Competitors, after June 15, 2017.

Bottom line, as I see it: Countries do not have to give up their earned JGP spots to any other country -- they can file the official paperwork by the June 15th deadline that confirms they plan to keep all their earned spots even if they don't intend to use them all or end up not using them all for whatever reason.

-----

14 age-eligible U.S. ladies currently have both minimum scores (20 / 35) for 2018 Junior Worlds and 12 are currently listed in USFS' International Selection Pool:

Starr ANDREWS USA Golden Bear 2016 27.10.2016 37.27 J / 54.61 J
Ting CUI USA Philadelphia Summer International 2017 03.08.2017 31.73 J / 52.98 J
Hanna HARRELL USA Asian Open FS Trophy 2017 02.08.2017 32.40 J / 47.83 J
Tessa HONG USA ISU JGP Tallinn Cup 2016 29.09.2016 31.42 J / 39.54 J (assigned to JGP #4 in Minsk)
Angelina HUANG USA ISU JGP Cup of Austria 2017 01.09.2017 21.77 J / 48.03 J
Ashley KIM USA Golden Bear 2016 27.10.2016 26.41 J / 37.11 J
Ashley LIN USA ISU JGP Ljubljana Cup 2016 22.09.2016 31.80 J / 47.86 J (assigned to JGP #3 in Riga)
Emmy MA USA Challenge Cup 2017 23.02.2017 28.63 J / 46.41 J (assigned to JGP #3 in Riga)
Brynne MCISAAC USA ISU JGP Cup of Mordovia 2016 16.09.2016 25.32 J / 38.84 J (currently not listed in this season's ISP)
Kaitlyn NGUYEN USA ISU JGP Brisbane 2017 24.08.2017 32.04 J / 57.78 J
Gabrielle NOULLET USA ISU JGP Yokohama 2016 09.09.2016 27.75 J / 35.44 J (currently not listed in this season's ISP; returning from injury)
Nina OUELLETTE USA ISU JGP Pokal d. Blauen Schwerter 2016 06.10.2016 25.90 J / 50.48 J
Paige RYDBERG USA Philadelphia Summer International 2017 03.08.2017 21.80 J / 49.65 J
Megan WESSENBERG USA ISU JGP Czech Skate 2016 01.09.2016 31.53 J / 45.19 J

Has the SP minimum only:
Audrey SHIN USA Asian Open FS Trophy 2017 02.08.2017 23.42 J / 34.61 J (came up 0.39 short in Hong Kong)

Has aged out of ISU Junior:
Bradie TENNELL USA ISU World Junior Championships 2017 17.03.2017 32.53 J / 52.81 J

ETA - ISU Junior age-eligible ladies currently listed in USFS' ISP and JGP alternate lists who have not been assigned an international to date: Ashley Kim, Vivian Le, Akari Nakahara, Nina Ouellette, Jenna Shi.

 

[mgobluegirl]

There are a lot of skaters listed in the ISP and on the JGP subs list, but I'd give Nguyen and Andrews second spots. They both had some really impressive moments in their programs at their respective JGPs and I think they're thus far the strongest/most promising of the skaters available to be selected. They need experience, that way they'll be more comfortable out there when/if named to the JW team.

 

[wickedwitch]

I'd give Nguyen a second, but I'd offer Andrews a senior B.

The problem with giving both a second is that there appears to be only three spots remaining as is, and if skaters at the next two events do just as well that leaves the USFS with too few slots.

 

[Frida80]

^^^ At least @AngieNikodinovLove finally noticed my mention of AN from last week.

@Frida80, I believe these are the relevant excerpts from the 2017/18 ISU JGP Announcement document (I've bolded the key parts below):

2.1 Men and Ladies
...
Additional Entries For Men and Ladies, if any ISU Member mentioned under a) to c) does not use its right to enter Skaters in the competition concerned, this entry will be given to the first ISU Member, mentioned under b) for an additional entry.
...
2.4 Procedure of Nominating and Deadline
The following procedure is necessary to control and to calculate points as well as to offer possible changes of non-used slots within the various events: a) Entries by number ISU Members must announce by June 15, 2017 at the latest, to the ISU Secretariat, their participants by number for all seven events of the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating. The official forms must to be used. The ISU Members must also announce by June 15, 2017 the disciplines and/or the events in which they were originally entitled to enter participants but will not use this right.
...
Based on the information received from the ISU Members, the ISU has informed the ISU Members concerned about changes or additional possibilities to enter Competitors, after June 15, 2017.

Bottom line, as I see it: Countries do not have to give up their earned JGP spots to any other country -- they can file the official paperwork by the June 15th deadline that confirms they plan to keep all their earned spots even if they don't intend to use them all or end up not using them all for whatever reason.

-----

14 age-eligible U.S. ladies currently have both minimum scores (20 / 35) for 2018 Junior Worlds and 12 are currently listed in USFS' International Selection Pool:

Starr ANDREWS USA Golden Bear 2016 27.10.2016 37.27 J / 54.61 J
Ting CUI USA Philadelphia Summer International 2017 03.08.2017 31.73 J / 52.98 J
Hanna HARRELL USA Asian Open FS Trophy 2017 02.08.2017 32.40 J / 47.83 J
Tessa HONG USA ISU JGP Tallinn Cup 2016 29.09.2016 31.42 J / 39.54 J (assigned to JGP #4 in Minsk)
Angelina HUANG USA ISU JGP Cup of Austria 2017 01.09.2017 21.77 J / 48.03 J
Ashley KIM USA Golden Bear 2016 27.10.2016 26.41 J / 37.11 J
Ashley LIN USA ISU JGP Ljubljana Cup 2016 22.09.2016 31.80 J / 47.86 J (assigned to JGP #3 in Riga)
Emmy MA USA Challenge Cup 2017 23.02.2017 28.63 J / 46.41 J (assigned to JGP #3 in Riga)
Brynne MCISAAC USA ISU JGP Cup of Mordovia 2016 16.09.2016 25.32 J / 38.84 J (currently not listed in this season's ISP)
Kaitlyn NGUYEN USA ISU JGP Brisbane 2017 24.08.2017 32.04 J / 57.78 J
Gabrielle NOULLET USA ISU JGP Yokohama 2016 09.09.2016 27.75 J / 35.44 J (currently not listed in this season's ISP; returning from injury)
Nina OUELLETTE USA ISU JGP Pokal d. Blauen Schwerter 2016 06.10.2016 25.90 J / 50.48 J
Paige RYDBERG USA Philadelphia Summer International 2017 03.08.2017 21.80 J / 49.65 J
Megan WESSENBERG USA ISU JGP Czech Skate 2016 01.09.2016 31.53 J / 45.19 J

Has the SP minimum only:
Audrey SHIN USA Asian Open FS Trophy 2017 02.08.2017 23.42 J / 34.61 J (came up 0.39 short in Hong Kong)

Has aged out of ISU Junior:
Bradie TENNELL USA ISU World Junior Championships 2017 17.03.2017 32.53 J / 52.81 J

ETA - ISU Junior age-eligible ladies currently listed in USFS' ISP and JGP alternate lists who have not been assigned an international to date: Ashley Kim, Vivian Le, Akari Nakahara, Nina Ouellette, Jenna Shi.

Thanks for the information. I was throughly confused. It's good that China decided early so the US could plan around these decisions. I do love how you are the best information for figure skating related information on the internet.

I suspect that maybe Ashley Kim, Audrey and Jenna will be sent either to a JGP or a later junior b for their minimums. Vivian may be going to a Challenger. She's so much better but still doesn't have her 3lz+3T back. It was so beautiful...

I thought Nina got her minimums last year. Edit. I saw it just now. Reading from an iPhone is tough.

 

[Coco]

Unless someone has a strong chance to get to the JGPF, I don't see the point in giving a junior a 2nd JGP if there are other juniors who have shown good results this summer and would also benefit from the experience of going to a JGP. When it comes to juniors, they should find as many baskets to put the eggs in as possible. Even if it doesn't pay off now, it will give hope to up and coming juniors that there will be rewards for competing well domestically.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

^^^ At least @AngieNikodinovLove finally noticed my mention of AN from last week.

LOL, some of the threads are getting too intense... trying to read and take it in.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Unless someone has a strong chance to get to the JGPF, I don't see the point in giving a junior a 2nd JGP if there are other juniors who have shown good results this summer and would also benefit from the experience of going to a JGP. When it comes to juniors, they should find as many baskets to put the eggs in as possible. Even if it doesn't pay off now, it will give hope to up and coming juniors that there will be rewards for competing well domestically.

One reason is that not everyone makes a splash at their first junior international or their first one in a while, and it not only gives them a shot to improve and redeem themselves, it gives the federation a chance to see if the first results were an anomaly.

If the skater/team did well, but the issue is with technical content, then it would make sense to give another skater/team a chance, but it's not like the team and federation didn't know what the tech content was when the initial assignment was made.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Unless someone has a strong chance to get to the JGPF, I don't see the point in giving a junior a 2nd JGP if there are other juniors who have shown good results this summer and would also benefit from the experience of going to a JGP. When it comes to juniors, they should find as many baskets to put the eggs in as possible. Even if it doesn't pay off now, it will give hope to up and coming juniors that there will be rewards for competing well domestically.

Well one point i saw that had some merit was to give them a chance to actually compete the junior versions of their programs before junior worlds. Most of the ladies we send to junior worlds are sent form seniors. So that means they are working on the senior versions of their programs domestically and focusing on that. It would be nice if whoever we sent to junior worlds this year has competed their junior programs at least twice internationally.

That does not mean only send them to a JGP... but i do think we need to be looking at getting our junior world candidates some mileage with that version of their program.

Maybe send Kaitlyn and Starr to something like Golden Bear to face off and get some more mileage.

 

[jlai]

Considering USFS doesn't have a limitless budget on skater travel, my suggestion is giving jgps to those who deserve a chance at getting a minimum score first before giving 2nd jgps away -- unless that skater places 4th or higher.

If USFS doesn't do that, then at some point USFS will have to find another opportunity for skaters like Vivian Le. Which doesn't come cheap I am sure.

 

[Frida80]

Well one point i saw that had some merit was to give them a chance to actually compete the junior versions of their programs before junior worlds. Most of the ladies we send to junior worlds are sent form seniors. So that means they are working on the senior versions of their programs domestically and focusing on that. It would be nice if whoever we sent to junior worlds this year has competed their junior programs at least twice internationally.

That does not mean only send them to a JGP... but i do think we need to be looking at getting our junior world candidates some mileage with that version of their program.

Maybe send Kaitlyn and Starr to something like Golden Bear to face off and get some more mileage.

Exactly. I think one of the reasons Starr had a tough FS is because her junior layout is so different from her senior layout. If both she and Kaitlyn went to another JGP or junior B, their coaches could focus on tweaking their programs so they can better perform them.


I think Tallin Trophy would be better than Golden Bear. Russia sends very competitive girl there to get experience. Plus there will already be a USA team going there.

 

[DimaToe]

I think that the juniors that should be given a second JGP are those that finish 4th or higher at their first event, because then there's actually some sort of chance to make the JGPF. While I like some of what I've seen from the U.S. juniors I don't believe that any that have competed so far should get a second JGP. Spread the wealth and let skaters like Andrews try their 3axel at other international events.

 

[Chemistry66]

We took China slots. I read over the rules very closely. The US is in group B and can get slots from others in group B and C that don't use their slots. In group B are USA, Germany, and Hong Kong. In group C are China, Sweden, Finland, and Great Britain. GB won't be send a lady in JGP #4 and Sweden won't be sending anyone to JGP #5. I didn't read anything about a limit to the number of slots that could be taken by a member. But based on the rules, the US could've assigned someone if they wanted to.


Edit. I just checked the list again. Great Britain has assigned someone to JGP #4. Perhaps they hadn't finalized their skater yet. Maybe the Sweeden spot is filled as well.

Technically, based on priority as per JWs finishes, all the spots that USA gained weren't from CHN. The Brisbane spot was from GER.

Also, GBR has had someone assigned since Belarus assignments came out. You must have missed it. Also, as per the Group C rules (1 spot in only 6 events) SWE does not have an allotted spot to fill in Croatia. Via page 16 of the JGP Announcement CHN has no spot in Italy (JGP 7), SWE has no spot in Croatia (JGP 5), FIN had no spot in Austria (JGP 2), and GBR has no spot in Poland (JGP 6)

 

[Frida80]

Technically, based on priority as per JWs finishes, all the spots that USA gained weren't from CHN. The Brisbane spot was from GER.

Also, GBR has had someone assigned since Belarus assignments came out. You must have missed it. Also, as per the Group C rules (1 spot in only 6 events) SWE does not have an allotted spot to fill in Croatia. Via page 16 of the JGP Announcement CHN has no spot in Italy (JGP 7), SWE has no spot in Croatia (JGP 5), FIN had no spot in Austria (JGP 2), and GBR has no spot in Poland (JGP 6)

Ah. I was wondering how it was decided which of these JGP each country skipped. That explains the missing entries for Sweden. Thanks for the information.

 

[Dobre]

If USFS doesn't do that, then at some point USFS will have to find another opportunity for skaters like Vivian Le. Which doesn't come cheap I am sure.

I love Vivian. I really want Vivian to come back strong & be successful.

But she is still doing only a triple double combination in the short. It doesn't take any effort to see that without the triple triple you aren't competitive. If the U.S. could send two ladies to every event, then, yes, I would say send her now. If she was doing the combination, I would say send her now. She's worth it. But it was not back as of yesterday.

Here is the question. What if we send Kaitlyn out now? To get the experience. Can she maybe bring home more spots next season? Six spots in the future would more than make up for one now.

The likely reality, I think, is no. It's not likely she can get into the top three countries this year. Because there are three countries that are outscoring our ladies by at least 20 points (and they have more than one lady with the big jumps). Kaitlyn fell on one jump, but she didn't lose 20 points on that fall. Ice is slippery, but finishing ahead of Russia/Japan/Korea isn't likely this season.

How about next year then? Could she maybe bring home more spots then if she gets the experience now?

I think it's worth a shot. I'd send her out again now.

I agree that sending Starr to a senior event would be wise. She'll be competing as a senior at Nationals. At least give her the shot to earn her international/4CC score. As far as another JGP, I agree with the people who say we should wait & see. She's very close to Kaitlyn's score, but Kaitlyn gets the call because she edged her out.

Korea had six spots last season and used them all wisely, IMO. The same three girls. Two spots each. (They knew what they had, and they sent the contenders. This season they have more age-eligible contenders. Their leaders have the experience, and Korea also has more spots).

Eunsoo Lim scored 166.91 at her first JGP last season and placed fourth out of the medals. (Kaetlyn is about 5 and a half points down from that. Not too far). At her second JGP, Eunsoo scored 173.21. Fewer nerves. More experience. More success. At Junior Worlds, Eunsoo scored 180.81. And finished fourth. This season she started off her season with a silver.

Why send an athlete without a medal in her first JGP to a second event? That's why.

 

[danafan]

I agree that sending Starr to a senior event would be wise. She'll be competing as a senior at Nationals. At least give her the shot to earn her international/4CC score.

Starr Andrews earned the senior worlds minimums at the Philadelphia Summer competition.

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/tes/stsljustsen.htm

 

[jlai]

I love Vivian. I really want Vivian to come back strong & be successful.

But she is still doing only a triple double combination in the short. It doesn't take any effort to see that without the triple triple you aren't competitive. If the U.S. could send two ladies to every event, then, yes, I would say send her now.

Huang got a jgp despite getting less than 140 in the summer comp and hasn't shown she has done a 3/3 in the short. But she got the chance to get a minimum. Hong's best summer comp was less than 145 and she gets a jgp too. Many skaters with better scores and did more jumps were not picked.
Apparently 3/3 isn't in the current selection criteria.

If Le or someone like that does well by nationals but hasn't had a chance to earn a minimum there will be a lot of Monday night quarterback complaints about this.

If 3/3 is a prerequisite to jgp selection, we actually don't have enough skaters to fill the spots.

Either way Le didn't skate well today, so I would say maybe not her for now, but had she landed triples like she did in Glacier falls, I would say she should be next in line in jgp based on summer results.

Had USFS been committed to sending only the highest summer scorers to two jgps each(as long as they did ok in first jgp) then I would agree with you

 

[Frida80]

Does anyone know the nature of Vivian's injury. I wonder if she relapsed because tonight was rough. It's not just the lack of triple triple. Tonight she could barely land any of her jumps. I'm really worried now. But I'll continue to be patient. I still believe she has the potential to be an outstanding skater.

I just hope that USFS will still give her a good senior B so she can get more international experience. After all, Bradie had a bad injury and was a little rough last year. Now this year she's far more consistent.

 

[DimaToe]

Vivian Le is the last U.S. junior lady to medal on the JGP (crazy to think about that isn't it? ) for that reason alone I believe that she should get some sort of international assignment even if her last outing wasn't exactly the most Impressive. I'd say that one of the later Challenger events would be best to see if it is injury/growth spurt that's giving her issues or if it's just another case of a U.S. lady not knowing how to compete. The pool isn't exactly deep for us right now so giving experience to our ladies with some sort of future potential seems ideal even if they're not medalling every time they compete.

 

[clairecloutier]

Vivian is on the reserve substitution list for Autumn Classic, so perhaps that indicates she will be considered for an assignment to one of the later Challenger Series events.

 

[mgobluegirl]

My biggest reservation about Le, other than her injury, is that I don't believe she has ever consistently had a complete set of triples. She used to do this spectacular 3Lz-3T and then later have to put in a 2Lz because she only had three triples. Looking at her protocol from this weekend it seems she has a nice 3S in there now, but I didn't see a loop attempted.

 

[Frida80]

My biggest reservation about Le, other than her injury, is that I don't believe she has ever consistently had a complete set of triples. She used to do this spectacular 3Lz-3T and then later have to put in a 2Lz because she only had three triples. Looking at her protocol from this weekend it seems she has a nice 3S in there now, but I didn't see a loop attempted.

I think you've answered my question. She had a loop before her injury. She landed it at nationals in 2016. It sounds like she may have a hip related injury.

In 2015-2016, Vivian started the season with four triples and added her 3S last. The 2Lz was a placeholder for the 3S. At nationals she had all her jumps but messed up her combo, which cost her the title.

 

[jlai]

Well this is a moot point now considering Le's Golden west fs.

 

[ruffledgrouse]

HAHAHAHA!! OMG you guys.

They're called water sleeves. It's a type of classical Chinese dance, very beautiful. I think Karen did a fan dance EX, too? She draws a lot on Chinese dance in her skating

 

[Tinami Amori]

They're called water sleeves. It's a type of classical Chinese dance, very beautiful. I think Karen did a fan dance EX, too? She draws a lot on Chinese dance in her skating

That's why i love Karen! Chinese should draw on "Chinese", use your own ethnic culture, show the world the finer details... much better choice than a Chinese girl dancing Can-Can for example....

 

[AxelAnnie]

Karen's fan dance was one of the most stunning things I have ever seen.

 

[AxelAnnie]

That's why i love Karen! Chinese should draw on "Chinese", use your own ethnic culture, show the world the finer details... much better choice than a Chinese girl dancing Can-Can for example....

I agree totally. But u just bet we are not PC in saying it!