U.S. Ladies [#18]: These Boots Are Made for Skating

[Marco]

Ashley is strategically not competing more so as to minimize the chances of her jumps and spins being called under. The second GP really hurt her last year, not only in not qualifying for GPF, but also in momentum for Nationals and Worlds.

She was very quiet about programs, jumps and spins. I don't feel confident about her this season.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Ashley is strategically not competing more so as to minimize the chances of her jumps and spins being called under. The second GP really hurt her last year, not only in not qualifying for GPF, but also in momentum for Nationals and Worlds.

She was very quiet about programs, jumps and spins. I don't feel confident about her this season.

Me either! I don't think any of this (changing programs, not doing early comps) bodes well for her.
And this is said by someone who is a huge fan.

 

[Vagabond]

Ash doesn't want to do Challengers, she doesn't want to do 4CC, heck she said she isn't even looking to be a Nats Champion...

Something about this does not bode well to me. Kind of reminds me of the end of Kwan's career where she stopped competing in anything but the big ones and then fizzled out. But Ashley is nowhere near that level of dominance so her choice surprises me. This is not the type of era anymore where you can just show up and win. I think Ashley is clinging to the hope, based on endorsements, that she will be selected to the team by committee, plugged into the SP team event again, and win another bronze. With this "easy" route to a medal only available to Americans, Canadians and Russians, it's kind of a no brainer to guess what her motivation is now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Wagner#Competitive_highlights

Ashley Wagner has never competed in a Senior "B" in her entire life! She held an entry at Golden Spin last season IIRC, but she didn't go. In 2010, she could have gone to Junior Worlds or Four Continents but chose to say at home and train so that she would be ready for the Olympics if a spot opened up. (It didn't.) And, while she hasn't been to Four Continents very often, she is a former Four Continents Champion, which is more than Karen Chen, Gracie Gold, Alyssa Czisny, Rachael Flatt, or Mirai Nagasu can say of herself. Ditto being a former World Medalist.

Why anyone would deride her for choosing to do pretty much the same things that have worked rather well for her in the past (three National Championships, a World Silver Medal, and a Four Continents Gold Medal, among other things) escapes me.

 

[bardtoob]

Ashley is strategically not competing more so as to minimize the chances of her jumps and spins being called under. The second GP really hurt her last year, not only in not qualifying for GPF, but also in momentum for Nationals and Worlds.

She was very quiet about programs, jumps and spins. I don't feel confident about her this season.

I thought it was because she needs more recovery time between competitions due to age #ISUCommicationNo.69:CaneswithToePicks

 

[chapis]

Now that Gracie and Ashley get along so well, I really wish Gracie would relocate back to Los Angeles but to work with Raf. I don't know if he would take on another top level skater but I think the environment with that training team and training staff would be really good and healthy for her. Even if she realizes that realistically she won't make the Olympic team (only if she hypothetically thinks this! I still have faith she can make the team), it might be a healthy move for her. Raf seems like he might be the right kind of intense for her. Plus, she could still live in Long Beach near Ashley and Adam which gives her the independence that she wanted but she would still be close to her sister (and mom? Did mom move back to Chicago?).

She seems very good friend with all the skaters in Canton. We should stop thinking that her success or happiness depends on other people instead of depending on herself.

 

[nimi]

I thought it was because she needs more recovery time between competitions due to age

See posts #650 (by @Willin) #654 (by me) and #663 (by @Vagabond). According to available info, Ashley has NEVER EVER EVER done a senior B.

Not only that, she's only done ONE junior B, back in 2006. That's it. Other than that one comp, it's just championships (long list of nats/worlds + 2 x 4CCs and 2 x jr worlds), grand prix events (only two JGPs but a bunch of sr GPs and GPFs) plus two WTTs, one Japan Open and Sochi Olys. That's it.

So it's not only about her age. More like a career-long strategy.

 

[cheremary]

While it could be a career-long strategy for Ashley to not do senior Bs, it should also be noted that senior B competitions have gained greater prominence since the Challenger Series was created in the 14-15 season, and more top-level skaters are doing them, whether to get ranking points or more competitive experience during the fall. For example, Patrick Chan had never done a senior B until Finlandia last year, and he's listed for Nebelhorn this year.

 

[bardtoob]

@nimi but it's less fun without the #

 

[nimi]

I'm really thankful for interesting female singles skaters like Ashley (and Caro) who are in it for the long haul, even after being repeatedly declared "too old" by many fans. Also it's a bit odd to me that while any woman past their early twenties is declared oooooooold and *insert a cane joke here*, there's also a recurring discussion about raising the age minimums because of concerns re: female skaters' health and longtime prospects (see: the Lip retirement thread). So, the only time in your career when you're neither "too young" nor "too old" for the sport is when you're, what, 18-22?

I know that most of the comments about these women's age (and weight) are meant to be light-hearted and not hostile and that skaters themselves in all probability know to stay the f*** away from places like this, but still, the jokes about their age (or weight) are just not that funny for me. Yes, this is a insanely demanding high-impact sport that's hard on your body and your psyche and even some of the most talented ones (see: Lip) don't last long, so it's to be expected that skaters themselves often develop a highly self-deprecating attitude & humour about their body & age (see: Ashley)... But I just don't see the "funny" when it's us spectators making the jokes about these skaters' age & their battered bodies. (Of course, this might be just me being ooooooold -- in my thirties! -- and having a history of eating disorders etc so feel free to ignore this off-topic grumpy rant, I just needed to type it out) (lol and sorry )

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Wagner#Competitive_highlights

Ashley Wagner has never competed in a Senior "B" in her entire life! She held an entry at Golden Spin last season IIRC, but she didn't go. In 2010, she could have gone to Junior Worlds or Four Continents but chose to say at home and train so that she would be ready for the Olympics if a spot opened up. (It didn't.) And, while she hasn't been to Four Continents very often, she is a former Four Continents Champion, which is more than Karen Chen, Gracie Gold, Alyssa Czisny, Rachael Flatt, or Mirai Nagasu can say of herself. Ditto being a former World Medalist.

Why anyone would deride her for choosing to do pretty much the same things that have worked rather well for her in the past (three National Championships, a World Silver Medal, and a Four Continents Gold Medal, among other things) escapes me.

Then how come she doesn't want to do much, I wonder? It makes sense to me if she is a world champion or has jumps that are 2 feet off the ice. But I wonder why she just wants to do the minimum there is.

 

[Willin]

Well, it works well for her. Different coaches also have different strategies as far as competitions go, so it may be coaches preference as opposed to skaters preference. Rafael doesn't seem to send skaters to summer club competitions or Senior B's, so it may be that he and other coaches (John Nix) don't like to get their skaters out too early in the season. At this point in her career I'm wondering if it was a coach's preference that she found worked for her so she just went along with it and continues to go along with it? I know for 4CC, Ashley said it was her personal preference based on past 4CC experiences, but that her coaches agreed with her decision not to attend.

For many older skaters, it's just better to rest a lot more, so why ramp up the competition schedule now?

 

[DimaToe]

I think there has been enough evidence that Wagner has been dealing with one injury or another most of this Olympic cycle. Given that she's one of the leading (if not the leading) American lady still, if she competes more than her body can and hurts herself then the U.S. is down one contender. She's been competing on the grant Prix since 2008.Even if she hasn't won everything she's shown that she is one of those top names so her not going to a senior B or 2 isn't going to be the end of the world. Even if she does skate earlier during the big competitions I don't think that'd really harm her chances this season.

I actually appreciate her competing less, that other skaters not guaranteed senior Bs can get some more international experience.

 

[Sylvia]

Re-posting this comment from the Autumn Classic International (ACI) competition thread in Kiss & Cry because I'm happy, too!

Beyond thrilled that Livvy Shilling got an international!

Local Ohio article published after Shilling placed 13th in Senior Ladies (her first time qualifying for "big" Nationals): http://www.thisweeknews.com/news/20170203/johnstown-native-shilling-figures-on-being-competitive
Quote from her proud mom:

“She’s the only skater who isn’t in the international selection pool, and the only skater who had never been to nationals before,” she said. “It’s wildly exciting. Getting to nationals was a long-time goal. This had been a longtime dream to accomplish.”

Shilling was added to the ISP after Nationals but I wasn't sure if she would get an international assignment because not everyone listed will get something.

Also listed for ACI are Courtney Hicks and Megan Wessenberg (her senior international debut). ETA: USFS has confirmed these 3 ladies' assignments on their website.

 

[Vagabond]

Then how come she doesn't want to do much, I wonder? It makes sense to me if she is a world champion or has jumps that are 2 feet off the ice. But I wonder why she just wants to do the minimum there is.

What part of "choosing to do pretty much the same things that have worked rather well for her in the past" don't you understand?

Skaters do not live in order to satisfy anonymous posters on the Internet. They have to deal with more important things like the risk of injury, competition fatigue, expenses (for their coaches and choreographers as well as themselves), classes, and even jobs. They also have the right not to explain their decision to stay home and train instead of going off to a competition (often overseas) against skaters who may not be quite up to their level.

 

[mgobluegirl]

Re-posting this comment from the Autumn Classic International (ACI) competition thread in Kiss & Cry because I'm happy, too!

Local Ohio article published after Shilling placed 13th in Senior Ladies (her first time qualifying for "big" Nationals): http://www.thisweeknews.com/news/20170203/johnstown-native-shilling-figures-on-being-competitive
Quote from her proud mom:

Shilling was added to the ISP after Nationals but I wasn't sure if she would get an international assignment because not everyone listed will get something.

Thrilled for Livvy! Couldn't happen to a nicer kid.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

What part of "choosing to do pretty much the same things that have worked rather well for her in the past" don't you understand?

Skaters do not live in order to satisfy anonymous posters on the Internet. They have to deal with more important things like the risk of injury, competition fatigue, expenses (for their coaches and choreographers as well as themselves), classes, and even jobs. They also have the right not to explain their decision to stay home and train instead of going off to a competition (often overseas) against skaters who may not be quite up to their level.

LOL, the second paragraph alone would have been the best response.

was just asking a non-snarky question about my favorite USA gal.

I don't think its that bizarre of a question when 99.8976% of her contemporaries are doing the opposite, so valid thought from my mind.

I didn't see on twitter or the Instagrams or at camp where she said "choosing to do pretty much the same things that have worked rather well for me in the past". Must be cool that she told you that.

 

[aftershocks]

might be just me being ooooooold -- in my thirties!

You are soooo NOT old in your thirties, nor your forties. Get rid of that notion immediately! You don't have to be old in your 50s, 60s, 70s and beyond either. Feeling 'old' is mostly a cultural state of mind and giving in to poor habits, poor discipline, and neglecting to remember that the body is a lazy shell which your spirit needs to animate and control, but not identify with.

Remember skating choreographer and dynamo Ricki Harris still kickin' it in a mini-skirt in her 90s!

Tribute from Jodi Porter (previously linked by @N_Halifax in a FSU thread about Harris' passing):
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-i-learned-from-ricky-harris-jodi-porter

Tribute from Garrett Kling (also previously linked in the same FSU thread):
https://americanicetheatre.wordpress.com/2014/10/01/profiles-ricky-harris/

 

[AxelAnnie]

You are soooo NOT old in your thirties, nor your forties. Get rid of that notion immediately! You don't have to be old in your 50s, 60s, 70s and beyond either. Feeling 'old' is mostly a cultural state of mind and giving in to poor habits, poor discipline, and neglecting to remember that the body is a lazy shell which your spirit needs to animate and control, but not identify with.

Oh, how I wish that were true. Somehow, even though I feel like I am 34, when my almost 70 year old body tries to move furniture, or chase my youngest grandchildren
I realize mind over matter only goes so far.

 

[Melissa]

She seems very good friend with all the skaters in Canton. We should stop thinking that her success or happiness depends on other people instead of depending on herself.

Pretty sure I didn't say or imply that her success or happiness depends on other people. In fact, the majority of what I said was regarding working with Raf. I am more interested in the idea of her working with Rafael (as far fetched as it may be) than her friendships and working with him didn't seem likely when she and Ashley were butting heads.

 

[zigzig]

Sorry, I missed the news about Ashley changing programs and couldn't find it in this thread. What's the story behind that?

 

[mag]

Oh, how I wish that were true. Somehow, even though I feel like I am 34, when my almost 70 year old body tries to move furniture, or chase my youngest grandchildren
I realize mind over matter only goes so far.

I am old and I really don't want anyone to tell me I'm not. The way I see it, I am what I am and I don't think being young is necessarily better than being old. Age is, after all, just a number. I know it is said a compliment when people tell me I don't look old enough to have grown children, but I just think it is a weird thing to say. No one would ever say that to a man! I am a much nicer more understanding person now than when I was 24. I have way more emphathy, patience, and perspective. I also don't have the strength or endurance I had at 34, but I think the other things more than make up for it!

As for skaters, I get really tired of people pre judging what people can and can't do and focusing on the can't part. If you love what you do and you enjoy working at it, then you should just block out the negative nelly's and do what you love.

 

[Willin]

@zigzig TSL tweeted that Ashley did her Moulin Rouge program at Champs Camp instead of the Lala Land FP that she was planning for this season. We have no idea if she is actually changing her long program or if it's just not ready at this point in time or if she's doing an entirely different third program. Honestly at this point I'd take her changing her FP with a grain of salt until it's confirmed that she's not doing Lala Land.

 

[chapis]

Maybe Tessa posted their music trying change Ashley´s mind. Ashley has not made it official after all. Do you think Tessa's announcement would make Ashley reconsider her choice?

 

[zigzig]

@zigzig TSL tweeted that Ashley did her Moulin Rouge program at Champs Camp instead of the Lala Land FP that she was planning for this season. We have no idea if she is actually changing her long program or if it's just not ready at this point in time or if she's doing an entirely different third program. Honestly at this point I'd take her changing her FP with a grain of salt until it's confirmed that she's not doing Lala Land.

Ah, interesting - thank you for the update!

 

[aftershocks]

Oh, how I wish that were true. Somehow, even though I feel like I am 34, when my almost 70 year old body tries to move furniture, or chase my youngest grandchildren
I realize mind over matter only goes so far.

Like I said, you are actually not your body. The body does age, as it is a vessel. But who we are does not age. Plus, there is mind over matter, if you believe there is. If not, give in to the body and give in to those thoughts running rampant in your head.

The way I see it, I am what I am and I don't think being young is necessarily better than being old.

Who said that "being young is better than being old"? Of course there are advantages to length of life in this universe, particularly in terms of perspective and the wisdom of experience. But that's not what I was referencing.

That your body ages, does not mean you do in the culturally negative sense. Maturity and becoming wiser is not the same as giving in to the culturally negative connotations of 'growing old.' There's a lot to be said for length of years. People of all different 'ages' should respect and learn from each other.

Maybe Tessa posted their music trying change Ashley´s mind. Ashley has not made it official after all. Do you think Tessa's announcement would make Ashley reconsider her choice?

But what would that have to do with Ashley Wagner's program decisionmaking? Vincent Zhou has also decided to change his fs music to Moulin Rouge. Does that mean Ashley should get all in a dither, if indeed she's decided to use MR again this season?

 

[chameleonster]

If Karen already competing her Tango de Roxanne SP didn't make Ashley waver, I don't know why someone also skating to Moulin Rouge in a completely different discipline would give her pause.

 

[chapis]

well, I do not follow so closely all the disciplines but at least I watch the programs of the medalists. When I see skaters using the same music, even if it was from different seasons, I can not help but compare them. And it's not to belittle Ashley, but I find it more likely that V/M does a better job. And I do not think I'm the only one who compares programs from different disciplines, more than once I've read of people comparing Shindler's list among all disciplines.

 

[Bellanca]

It's funny, that while everyone is focused solely on Ashley and Gracie at the moment, we also have a very confident Karen Chen, a revitalized Mirai Nagasu - reeling off 3A's, a hungry Courtney Hicks, a motivated Mariah Bell, a returning Polina Edmunds, an emerging Bradie Tennell, an artistic dream skater in Tessa Hong, etc, etc. Maybe @Frau Muller is right, that we might be sending a team of first-time ladies, or Mirai and two newbies. It is possible that neither AW nor GG make the team, or maybe they both will. But hey, let's just keep on talking about Ashley & Gracie.

 

[Dobre]

Or we could talk about Starr & Angelina, who are competing this weekend at JGP Austria.

Angelina Huang's winning free skate from novice nationals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3JwkiLY4ik

Starr Andrews's silver medal free skate from junior nationals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVaFPU2pkuo

At Nationals, I appreciated Angelina's nice high jumps. And with Starr, I appreciated the different styles within her Pink Panther short & her Swan Lake long. Best wishes to them both.

 

[nimi]

And with Starr, I appreciated the difference styles within her Pink Panther short & her Swan Lake long.

And that was an entertaining SP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88H2IIbpk5k

Just watched her new programs from Philly. She's going with Great American Pop Divas this season (Beyoncé for SP, Whitney for FP).

I prefer her Beyoncé: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NzUA_mxE34