U.S. Ice Dance 2018-19 season news & updates

platniumangel

Active Member
Messages
195
The Greens were a real medal threat, but Wheaton's track record with sibling teams may have given the Greens pause. The Phams disappeared as novices. The Beckers were amazing technicians who won the low-level titles and then became a size mismatch. The Parsons did amazingly well through juniors and also succeeded in senior (a GP medal is nothing to sniff at), but their size mismatch also did them in. Maybe the Greens saw the writing on the wall for their future, and decided to break up now rather than do very well in juniors but not reach their ultimate senior goals.
Isn’t Caroline Green taller than Rachel Parson? And since she’s still young.... she may not be done growing.
 

Jammers

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,655
Do we know for sure that the Greens split? Have they partnered with anyone else yet? This to me is a big mistake as they had great potential and only injury derailed them last season and they are still so young.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,277
I suppose for a skater like Somerville, it's more likely to earn a medal on the JGP (some time in his next 3 seasons) than it would be to earn a medal at a Challenger.
Or more likely to earn two JGP medals this season with Gropman, earn a spot in the final flight at Junior Worlds, and come out of juniors with a resume superior to--say Kaliszek & Spodyriev--who went on to win two CS medals during their 1st full senior season, and are now top 11 in the World. (Which I realize would not get you onto the World team from the U.S. or get you a clear crack at the top 5 at U.S. Nationals at this particular moment in time, but is an awesome achievement nonetheless). Pogrebinsky & Benoit also finished lower than G&S the season before their final year at Junior Worlds and then went on to finish top 4 at Junior Worlds and medal during their first season on the Challenger Series.

-Haines/Koszuta and Efimova/Petrov were aging out of JGP and wouldn't have an immediate impact (if ever) in Sr. with the deep American field above them.
Less depth in the senior national field than there is in the junior one they felt was worth competing in for the past 2-3 seasons.

Regarding Haines & Koszuta, they probably would have had to earn a minimum senior score in order to compete internationally, which I do think would have been a good challenge during an initial senior season. I would have said that chasing down Erdman & Vlasenko would have been a good start, except that E&V may have split already. Waiting for news here. Considering how many teams have split, H&K actually might have been up for consideration for Skate America this season. Though I think a couple more years of international experience would have served them well first, honestly. (I've no thoughts on Efimova & Petrov).

-The Purnells, DelCamp/Gart, and Amoia/Becker, weren't at the international competitive standard.
I think that for the Purnells qualifying for Junior Nationals was a success for them.

With regards to DelCamp & Gart, I think she needs to develop her footwork and he probably needs to gain more power. Both most likely to happen the hard way through hard work.

The jury was out on Amoia & Becker, IMO. She started out quite a ways behind. They were more balanced and improved this season when I saw them at Lake Placid, which of course was the last time we saw them. My guess is that it was hard for him to come off such a successful JGP debut with his sister and then to realize how hard it was going to be to climb back up. But I think A&B actually were better this season than last year. In a couple years, they might have been a quality team, which we will never know.

Gunter/Wein were around a top 6-8 JGP international team so it would depend on how much progress they had made and the depth of the field whether they could medal.
Sure. Competitive with D'Allessandro & Waddell (whom they split results with at JGP Canada), the Browns (whom they defeated at JGP Armenia), and other teams like Bronsard & Bouraguia (whom they split results with at JGP Armenia) at that level. For which the same is true.

Wolfkostin/Zhao had a lot of potential, but breaking up at their ages is fine and they have plenty of time to build momentum.
Wolfkostin & Chen, I think, have a shot of bettering Wolfkostin & Zhao's results from last season. We'll see. (Jeffrey has never skated in an international as far as I know).

Note: In classic Shpilband fashion, pretty much all the dancers that went to train with him for the first time last season have been reshuffled.

The Greens were a real medal threat, but Wheaton's track record with sibling teams may have given the Greens pause. The Phams disappeared as novices. The Beckers were amazing technicians who won the low-level titles and then became a size mismatch. The Parsons did amazingly well through juniors and also succeeded in senior (a GP medal is nothing to sniff at), but their size mismatch also did them in. Maybe the Greens saw the writing on the wall for their future, and decided to break up now rather than do very well in juniors but not reach their ultimate senior goals.
This one is really unexpected. (Can we name another U.S. Junior National Champion that split prior to the following season?) While much of the commentary over the past three seasons regarding this team felt like hype to me, they were putting in the work & growing. The number of teams they took out at Mentor Torun Cup this year was impressive and then to go on and win Junior Nationals after such a tough setback. The presentation was improving. They were getting stronger and developing into a legitimate threat. I'm guessing Gordon decided this is not the career he wants to have for the next 10 years of his life even though the writing-on-the-wall said the opportunity was available & the choice was up to him. My guess is as completely uninformed as yours, as who the heck really knows? We don't even technically know if they've split and/or if either has gotten out. Probably they'll tell us when they are ready.

Canada is positioned well for the next JGP with several middle-jr.-aged teams who aren't so young that they just look cute and who also have a couple more seasons to establish themselves, e.g., Bronsard/Bouaragui, D'Alessandro/Waddell. Russia will be just fine with Ushakova/Nekrasov, Ivanenko/Karpov, Shanaeva/Narzhnyy, etc. But IMO, they were positioned well before all the American splits.
Yes. And all were facing real competition from U.S. teams that have either definitely or most likely just split up.

It is very much the way it goes with juniors. It's a true miracle when the teams one falls in love with keep competing together through a full senior career. Athletes grow up and develop different life goals and/or choose different career paths than the ones one might envision for them.
 
Last edited:

kwanfan1818

I <3 Kozuka
Messages
32,533
What's happening in Wheaton reminds me of what happened with Wing/Lowe in BC: they primarily brought up skaters paired young, and it was a real challenge to get them to the next step in seniors, due to injury, physical growth, and university.

I think many of us were waiting to see if the Wheaton coaches' top seniors could make a successful transition to seniors. I think it's a different situation now, with a solid wall if teams at the very top, than when Shpilband/Zoueva broken into US and Canadian skating with their dominant teams, and who got support for being in the medal hunt for the first time since Blumber/Seifert, and to expect Wheaton to follow along the same path.

Most elite coaches pick up juniors (sometimes) and seniors who have been developed by other coaches, whether the teams move to coaches with more politik, or they move for new partnerships.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
31,981
It's a shame about Wing/Lowe's group. I remember watching Orford/Hill's Theory of Everything FD and loving it. I don't remember if Wing/Lowe coached them at that point but I remember the commentator saying Megan Wing choreographed it and I thought it was a beautiful piece of work.
 

breathesgelatin

Well-Known Member
Messages
433
It's a shame about Wing/Lowe's group. I remember watching Orford/Hill's Theory of Everything FD and loving it. I don't remember if Wing/Lowe coached them at that point but I remember the commentator saying Megan Wing choreographed it and I thought it was a beautiful piece of work.
I'm so off topic here but SAME. I was rewatching Orford/Hill's programs last week. Really wonder what could have been there...
 

aftershocks

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,143
It is surprising having a bunch of junior teams at Wheaton shift, and two of them on the Junior World team.
All obviously for different, individual reasons. For example, Rachel Parsons has discussed why she decided to take a break from skating. Ian Somerville AFAIK has not made any public statements about his reasons for splitting with Eliana Gropman, but we do know he has recently paired with Katarina DelCamp (who amicably split with her former partner, Maxwell Gart). Perhaps Gart is pursuing other interests. I'm not sure what has been happening regarding the Greens. But obviously, she has been injured, and they were disappointed by their results at Junior Worlds.

With regards to DelCamp & Gart, I think she needs to develop her footwork...
Well, hopefully DelCamp will improve on all cylinders with Ian Somerville. Here's hoping. :saint:

I'm so off topic here but SAME. I was rewatching Orford/Hill's programs last week. Really wonder what could have been there...
Orford/Hill were a lovely team for Canada. I really enjoyed watching them. I don't think they had enough financial and political backing to continue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZzsD-FYbQQ Theory of Everything
For such a new team, they skated with beautiful unison together and such palpable joy!
:encore: :wuzrobbed
 
Last edited:

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,277
For sure breaking into the elite senior coaching scene is a real challenge. I would think most of us expected that to be true. My memory is that it was a real challenge for Shpilband as well. Punsalun & Swallow had already been U.S. Champions when they moved there; but Lang & Tchernyshev didn't exactly leap to the top. Joseph & Butler only lasted one senior season after winning Junior Worlds. Silverstein & Pekarek dissolved in exactly the same way the Parsons have. Belbin & Agosto finished 17th at their first Worlds, and that was a success for their debut.

Anyway, I'll say the same as I did about Shpilband last season regarding Carreira & Ponomarenko. As long as Novak & Kiliakov have McNamara & Carpenter, they have a say in the future of U.S. ice dance.

Novak & Kiliakov have been pretty clear that their focus as coaches is more on developing young athletes with their own technique rather than on breaking into the senior coaching scene. Though they've also taken on the challenge, and their senior teams both medaled on the GP and won double silver on the CS series this season. They had to defeat all the teams right outside the top 10 at Worlds this year in order to earn those placements. As coaches, you're not going to break through by doing the same thing as your opposition. You're going to do it by offering your own strengths.

From a distance, Wing & Lowe strike me as a coaching team that is dedicated to learning more. I think I saw them at three events last year, and each time, they were in the stands watching many of the skaters. Sales & Wamsteeker finished 4th at Nationals and won the SC host spot. Makita & Gunara could move up quite a ways in the pecking order at the junior level with so many teams aging up. It's not Worlds; but it's another voice in Canadian Figure Skating.

Perhaps Gart is pursuing other interests.
Gart has teamed up with Anya Lavrova. (She was skating in solo dance, and then competed briefly with Jeffrey Chen in novices this past season).

I'm not sure what has been happening regarding the Greens. But obviously, she has been injured, and they were disappointed by their results at Junior Worlds.
The Junior World ranks are about to be gutted. I count 16 teams--outside the Greens--that have either aged up, split, or are moving on. Including the entire podium. A 7th place result after mucking up your best element in only your 2nd year of junior eligibility is a bump in the road.
 
Last edited:

Colonel Green

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,795
I'm not sure what has been happening regarding the Greens. But obviously, she has been injured, and they were disappointed by their results at Junior Worlds.
If the Green/Parsons thing is real, I’d say the coaching team actively broke that team up to put Caroline with Michael.
 

aftershocks

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,143
If the Green/Parsons thing is real, I’d say the coaching team actively broke that team up to put Caroline with Michael.
^^ Interesting if it happens. Do they match up well? Perhaps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHF6vNx6qDQ Parsons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFiyoc7hqgo Greens

The Junior World ranks are about to be gutted. I count 16 teams--outside the Greens--that have either aged up, split, or are moving on. Including the entire podium. A 7th place result after mucking up your best element in only your 2nd year of junior eligibility is a bump in the road.
Of course, there's probably something going on we don't know about that might have more to do with something other than the Junior Worlds disappointment. Whatever it is, they likely are concerned with their own situation and not focusd on what's been happening in the ranks with other teams splitting.

Gart has teamed up with Anya Lavrova. (She was skating in solo dance, and then competed briefly with Jeffrey Chen in novices this past season).
Okay. So more of a split-switch scenario, with Katarina teaming with Ian.
 
Last edited:

jiejie

Well-Known Member
Messages
815
IMO, the decisions of Hubbell/Donohue and Chock/Bates to continue to 2022 created a complete logjam where there just isn't anywhere for current junior teams to make a run at the podium. With Hawayek/Baker, McNamara/Carpenter, Carreira/Ponomarenko sewing up the rest of the top five spots (Parsons x 2 would have made it top 6 spots), it's a long long wait to even get a run at the US senior podium. I can see where waiting another 5 years, especially for teams with only 1-2 years of junior eligibility left, would have been enough to call it quits, or call for a change.
 

aftershocks

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,143
So that makes at least three completely uninformed theories based on the fact that we know absolutely nothing. LOL.
Unless you are an insider with the real goods, most of us are always speculating and/ or commenting on rumors in the absence of solid knowledge. ;)
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
31,981
Not to be presumptuous, but I think it'd be more difficult to break up a sibling team in the manner some are suggesting. If a sibling team breaks up, it must have been a real family discussion. Maybe one sibling was pressured to give it up but still, It's hard for me to imagine someone acting with malice or bad faith towards one sibling partner in favor of another.
 

Lara111

Well-Known Member
Messages
431
Not to be presumptuous, but I think it'd be more difficult to break up a sibling team in the manner some are suggesting. If a sibling team breaks up, it must have been a real family discussion. Maybe one sibling was pressured to give it up but still, It's hard for me to imagine someone acting with malice or bad faith towards one sibling partner in favor of another.
Everything is possible. Lets say someone acts with malice toward one of the siblings and this sibling decide to quit because of it.
 

layman

Well-Known Member
Messages
249
IMO, the decisions of Hubbell/Donohue and Chock/Bates to continue to 2022 created a complete logjam where there just isn't anywhere for current junior teams to make a run at the podium. With Hawayek/Baker, McNamara/Carpenter, Carreira/Ponomarenko sewing up the rest of the top five spots (Parsons x 2 would have made it top 6 spots), it's a long long wait to even get a run at the US senior podium. I can see where waiting another 5 years, especially for teams with only 1-2 years of junior eligibility left, would have been enough to call it quits, or call for a change.
I disagree with this sentiment. Ice Dance teams no longer have to "wait their turn" or wait until a more experienced teams retires to make their move (onto the podium).

Chock/Bates jumped right onto the podium when they paired up. When the Shibutani's turned senior, they debuted on the podium. They did not have to wait their turn.

Belbin/Agosto spent one season behind Lang/Tchernyshev (the more senior team), then passed them and in their turn Belbin/Agosto were passed by Davis/White (at that time a more junior team).

There has been a great deal of movement on and off the podium in the last twenty years. I don't think any of the junior teams coming up need despair. If they work hard enough, they will get on the podium. Nothing can stop talent.

What these young teams need to do (to ensure their future success) is stick together, as we have seen a dozen promising teams (over the last twenty years) split up (for various reasons) just as they were about to make their mark as senior skaters.
 
Last edited:

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
31,981
Everything is possible. Lets say someone acts with malice toward one of the siblings and this sibling decide to quit because of it.
Of course, anything is possible, but I'm thinking about what's most probable. Without many more facts, I still maintain a sibling teams breaking up would usually have to have some sort of family discussion beforehand and more likely-than-not that the family would be interested in balancing the interests of both partners whereas in a non-sibling team, one partner can easier break away and form a new partnership without caring about the future of the partner who was left behind or at least not care as much since it will not affect your family in some way.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,277
I disagree with this sentiment. Ice Dance teams no longer have to "wait their turn" or wait until a more experienced teams retires to make their move (onto the podium).

Chock/Bates jumped right onto the podium when the paired up. When the Shibutani's turned senior, they debuted on the podium. They did not have to wait their turn.

Belbin/Agosto spent one season behind Lang/Tchernyshev (the more senior team), then passed them and in their turn Belbin/Agosto were passed by Davis/White (at that time a more junior team).

There has been a great deal of movement on and off the podium in the last twenty years. I don't think any of the junior teams coming up need despair. If they work hard enough, they will get on the podium. Nothing can stop talent.
This is a great post. One correction or clarification: Chock & Bates did not jump right onto the podium (at least not at the National or GP level). They finished 5th in both the SD and the FD at the 2012 Nationals behind Hubbell & Donohue and Kriengkrairut & Giulietti-Schmidt.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,277
:love: :love: :love:

Lynn and Logan! What a delightful team they were. Thanks for the memory jog.
Yes, and that was such a great opportunity for them that season too! (I can't remember if it was that season or the next one when they had the programs that I loved and thought they had a really great shot at making the Worlds team, but then they mucked up during the event and ahhh! So much for that. But a nice team. Another team that missed out on the top three at Nationals but really had a worthwhile senior career, IMO).
 
Last edited:

kwanfan1818

I <3 Kozuka
Messages
32,533
There's a difference between having one or two teams ahead and having a decent chance to make the National podium vs. having to break through five teams, some of whom with GP medals early in their careers, ahead of you. If there's little chance of making any championships except a shot at Olympic-year 4C's, that's a lot of money. The teams we're talking about are not skating for years to make Nationals (or likely wouldn't be, if they had gone to seniors.)

Novak and Kiliakov don't have the advantage of a major change in the judging system, which solidified their rise by valuing their strengths and made them podium contenders, followed by D/W, who didn't have to climb from 17th. The +/-5 GOE changes didn't make the same impact on the Wheaton teams.
 

Colonel Green

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,795
Not to be presumptuous, but I think it'd be more difficult to break up a sibling team in the manner some are suggesting. If a sibling team breaks up, it must have been a real family discussion. Maybe one sibling was pressured to give it up but still, It's hard for me to imagine someone acting with malice or bad faith towards one sibling partner in favor of another.
This wasn't directed specifically at me, but to be clear, I don't think the coaches acted deviously or caused bad feelings amongst the teams (in this case, anyway; Gropman/Somerville's split suggests some iffy coach actions).

Accepting of course that we're kind of inherently guessing at things from the outside, it seems like Rachel's retirement was what precipitated this, and everybody started thinking about a new partner for Michael. I don't have any reason to think that the Greens' split was acrimonious or whatever; probably if Caroline is skating with Michael now, it's because everybody felt this was a big opportunity for her.

I disagree with this sentiment. Ice Dance teams no longer have to "wait their turn" or wait until a more experienced teams retires to make their move (onto the podium).

Chock/Bates jumped right onto the podium when they paired up. When the Shibutani's turned senior, they debuted on the podium. They did not have to wait their turn.

Belbin/Agosto spent one season behind Lang/Tchernyshev (the more senior team), then passed them and in their turn Belbin/Agosto were passed by Davis/White (at that time a more junior team).

There has been a great deal of movement on and off the podium in the last twenty years. I don't think any of the junior teams coming up need despair. If they work hard enough, they will get on the podium. Nothing can stop talent.

What these young teams need to do (to ensure their future success) is stick together, as we have seen a dozen promising teams (over the last twenty years) split up (for various reasons) just as they were about to make their mark as senior skaters.
I have to disagree (with your disagreement).

There was a big generational explosion in North American ice dance in the recent past that saw a lot of very young, just-out-of-juniors teams climb immediately to the top of the ranks. It happened the better part of a decade ago, with teams who were percolating upward through the 2006-2010 quad. But this generation has pretty much frozen out subsequent teams from rising very far -- it's not that there hasn't been movement, but it's largely consisted of dancers splitting and re-emerging in new combinations, with a few less-heralded talents from that generation gradually working their way up; you saw a few cases of this in the seasons immediately after Vancouver.

So yeah, it didn't take long for Chock/Bates to reach the summit, but both Chock and Bates were part of the new wave with their previous partners. They were less a completely new thing than a continuation of the post-2008 standard podium configuration. Evan Bates has been top three in the US for nine of the last eleven seasons, and one of those years he wasn't able to compete due to injury; see also, Paul Poirier, who has only missed one of the last eleven Canadian national podiums. Bates and Poirier can both look to add three more national medals (at least) before this is over.

None of that success is undeserved, of course, but I think that both the rapid rise and somewhat unusual career longevity of this cluster of skaters has created a bit of a talent logjam (it's less obvious in Canada right now because the logjam reached a crisis point when Virtue/Moir announced they were coming back and the whole middle tier of teams just bailed). Hawayek and Baker waited a whole quad to get on the Worlds team, and the mid-tier American teams right now are looking at a similar wait.
 

TanithandBenFan

Author of the Ice and Edge Series
Messages
8,042
Yes, and that was such a great opportunity for them that season too! (I can't remember if it was that season or the next one when they had the programs that I loved and thought they had a really great shot at making the Worlds team, but then they mucked up during the event and ahhh! So much for that. But a nice team. Another team that missed out on the top three at Nationals but really had a worthwhile senior career, IMO).
The season before that they had the Muse free dance that I loved so much, and they made a really big mistake in the footwork at nationals. :( They had a great chance to get the pewter medal (probably not the World team since Chock/Zuerlein performed well that year), but definitely a shot at their first nationals podium since the Hubbells had run out of steam.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,277
Wow, a real discussion during the off season! I have lots of thoughts; but I'll try not to bombard the thread with all of them at once:).

I think it would be fun to look at all the different ways coaching teams have broken through over the years. (Note to self: maybe bring up the topic in the Dance Hall).

Novak & Kiliakov's top junior & senior teams defeated Shpilband's top junior & senior teams at Nationals so I guess that's not a bad start.

Shpilband started coaching in Detroit around 1990/91? It took a good long time to get to Belbin & Agosto's 2005 World medal. (And while the rule changes played a major role in how that particular coaching breakthrough played out at the senior level, his teams broke through and started medaling at the junior level before those changes took place). Basically a generation had to grow up. Novak & Kiliakov are looking at their first generation to grow up.

Every coach, every team, and every generation faces its own challenges. On the tough side for the upcoming generation(s), the bar is very high in the U.S. Senior Dance field right now. On the positive side, so many ceilings and so much ground has been broken by the dance teams and coaches that have come before.
 
Last edited:

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
31,981
I also think there is opportunity for one or even two (possibly more depending on how the next three seasons go) of the younger teams to break through into the top three by 2022. I don't think any of the current top three are in a Davis/White situation where they will be undeniably cemented in their spot. A lot of things can happen in three years.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information