Time to change the minimum age for seniors?

[DreamSkates]

I didn't see this anywhere...if so, moderator please delete.
Here is the article. What are your thoughts?
I agree with Artunian.
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/04/30/274122364

 

[Sylvia]

The article by Phil Hersh is being discussed in two different threads in GSD (for those who want to read what people have posted so far):

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...proposals-reaction.102100/page-6#post-5356368

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...g-2018-and-beyond.103656/page-14#post-5356372

ETA: I was going to start a separate thread for Hersh's article until I discovered the discussion had already begun elsewhere. Thanks for starting a new thread, @DreamSkates.

 

[Marco]

I don't understand why this is necessary. If they are not of age to turn senior, they stay in junior. They will still practice and attempt the big jumps that may hurt their bodies [the main concern?!]. It was at Jr Worlds that the champion landed 2 quads and 7 triples, not Sr Worlds.

For me, the only reason to up the senior age floor is just so that the young girls don't have the unfair advantage of landing difficult jumps on pre-puberscent bodies. This to me is the real rationale behind this but I also don't agree. Some girls have growth spurt younger and some older. Some is genetics / ethnics. I think this is more of a judging problem where judges give jumpers undue PCS. If they fix that, I think the current situation is fine.

 

[BaileyCatts]

I'm all for raising it and have been for years. It should be 16 by July 1 of the upcoming Season, so must turn 16 by this July 1 for the 2018-19 Season. And none of this I can skate Seniors at GPs and Nationals but not Worlds stuff. 16 by July 1 of the Season for *all* events, otherwise you skate Juniors for all events. So there.

 

[jlai]

I don't understand why this is necessary. If they are not of age to turn senior, they stay in junior. They will still practice and attempt the big jumps that may hurt their bodies [the main concern?!]. It was at Jr Worlds that the champion landed 2 quads and 7 triples, not Sr Worlds.

For me, the only reason to up the senior age floor is just so that the young girls don't have the unfair advantage of landing difficult jumps on pre-puberscent bodies. This to me is the real rationale behind this but I also don't agree. Some girls have growth spurt younger and some older. Some is genetics / ethnics. I think this is more of a judging problem where judges give jumpers undue PCS. If they fix that, I think the current situation is fine.

The judges have always given the jumpers undue non technical marks. I suspect Feds push the skaters they think have a chance to medal and politic for their skaters in the presentation or pcs dept.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I don't understand why this is necessary. If they are not of age to turn senior, they stay in junior. They will still practice and attempt the big jumps that may hurt their bodies [the main concern?!]. It was at Jr Worlds that the champion landed 2 quads and 7 triples, not Sr Worlds.

For me, the only reason to up the senior age floor is just so that the young girls don't have the unfair advantage of landing difficult jumps on pre-puberscent bodies. This to me is the real rationale behind this but I also don't agree. Some girls have growth spurt younger and some older. Some is genetics / ethnics. I think this is more of a judging problem where judges give jumpers undue PCS. If they fix that, I think the current situation is fine.

I agree. Skaters (or rather coaches) will keep pushing the boundaries regardless of age. I don't think age limits will have any impact on that. It is only an administrative control.

If you are really wanting to stop skaters getting injured (which is I assume what this is about) it requires risk assessment and monitoring by forces much bigger than what the ISU can feasibly control. And I think you would find workplaces would more tightly control injury prevention than what sports do.

The only thing I can see is actually to restrict the jumps that skaters can do. That is quads are not permitted in junior levels so they are not encouraged. But again that doesn't stop skaters practising those elements.

 

[sykr]

I suggest to introduce weight cathegories like in weight-lifting and judo. This way, Tursynbaeva will compete only with Trusova, Osmond with Rajicova,...
On more serious level, this new rule will not make anybody stop to push for harder content. It was told many times by top coaches, that the more they learn young, the bigger possibility they will keep at least some of their big tricks later.

 

[ivagall]

I'm all for raising it and have been for years. It should be 16 by July 1 of the upcoming Season, so must turn 16 by this July 1 for the 2018-19 Season. And none of this I can skate Seniors at GPs and Nationals but not Worlds stuff. 16 by July 1 of the Season for *all* events, otherwise you skate Juniors for all events. So there.

This, have a rule that says at 16 you can decide whether you continue in juniors or go to seniors, but once you are in seniors there is no turning back. No more Junior Worlds for you this season or the next one and the same vice versa, if you stay in juniors no senior competitions for you that season.

 

[jiejie]

My completely unscientific queries of random friends and acquaintances--who are not true-blue figure skating fans but find it at least mildly interesting and are willing to watch--is that they dislike watching Ladies events when the skaters look like kids or young teens instead of women. Even if the younger skaters can do more nifty tricks. I have to believe that at least some federations as well as the ISU, have heard of similar perspectives, and this would tend to support raising the minimum age for seniors.

 

[misskarne]

Sorry, but Arutunian and Orser are flat-out hypocrites in this article. Orser professes concern for Trusova, but he had Gogolev doing 4Lz at 12 (younger than Trusova). Arutunian professes concern for skaters' health, but how many injuries has Chen had?

Like a lot of conversations going on at the moment, I wonder if the conversation would have this tone if baby Americans, or baby Canadians, or baby Japanese ladies were dominating...

 

[VGThuy]

I think they're used to it because the age requirements did change in the 1990s when baby Americans with all their triples started dominating or were threatening to dominate the ladies field at the advent of the post-figures era and the ISU and others didn't want the sport to be overtaken by "little girls", and then an age requirement kept both Yuna Kim and Mao Asada out of the 2006 Olympics.

Not the same sport, but Olga Korbut, one of the original sport pixies that captured the entire world's attention at the age of 14 at the 1972 Olympics later on said she believed gymnastics should be separated by under 18 and 18 and older because by then she didn't like the direction gymnastics was going in with a bunch of young athletes lasting like 2 seasons on average.

 

[Seerek]

Chloe Kim was already winning the snowboarding HalfPipe event at the X-Games at 14 years of age...Ruta Meliutyte won her Olympic breaststroke swimming gold medal at 15. What about these examples?

 

[VGThuy]

Chloe Kim was already winning the snowboarding HalfPipe event at the X-Games at 14 years of age...Ruta Meliutyte won her Olympic breaststroke swimming gold medal at 15. What about these examples?

Since I'm not in favor of raising the age limit, I can only guess that the those in favor of raising it in the skating world's response would be to let those sporting federations deal with their image and health of their athletes (if that's an actual reason) and we'll deal with ours.

 

[IloveFS]

Chloe Kim was already winning the snowboarding HalfPipe event at the X-Games at 14 years of age...Ruta Meliutyte won her Olympic breaststroke swimming gold medal at 15. What about these examples?

@Serek - I have to agree with you.. If a skater is at his/her prime at a young age (let's say over 13), why shouldn't they be able to compete at Worlds/Olympics if they can compete with the best?

 

[Aussie Willy]

If the concern is skater welfare and injury prevention, maybe there needs to be a Code of Ethics that is adopted by the sport and has to be adhered to by those involved. It would make for an interesting research project to see the impact of jumping on young bodies and let that guide skater development and difficulty of elements rather than just raising age limits.

On the other hand, I could see the day when a skater sues a former coach for injuries incurred when they were young.

 

[Marco]

I would hate to see skaters being kept out of competition due purely to age, much like they are being kept out due purely to citizenship. If someone is 13 and capable, why can't s/he compete at Worlds?

Let the best skaters compete together.

 

[Orm Irian]

If the concern is skater welfare and injury prevention, maybe there needs to be a Code of Ethics that is adopted by the sport and has to be adhered to by those involved.

That really should happen no matter what. And put some teeth to it - eg if a coach doesn't sign on to the Code of Ethics, their skaters don't get to compete at ISU-sanctioned events...

I'd also love it if a university medical research department/sports institute somewhere could get funding for a longitudinal study of the effects of jump impact and spin rotations on the growth plates, joints, spines and brains of skaters - not just kids, either, all ages. Anyone got a few million going spare?

 

[purple skates]

My completely unscientific queries of random friends and acquaintances--who are not true-blue figure skating fans but find it at least mildly interesting and are willing to watch--is that they dislike watching Ladies events when the skaters look like kids or young teens instead of women. Even if the younger skaters can do more nifty tricks. I have to believe that at least some federations as well as the ISU, have heard of similar perspectives, and this would tend to support raising the minimum age for seniors.

I am a skating fan and I haven’t watched much of ladies in the past few years for this very reason. It’s boring.

I’m fine with an age increase. Not because I find ladies skating boring (I’ll get over that ) but because I have had concerns for years about health issues with young elites. That includes the sport’s preference for bendiness as well as for the jumps.

 

[Sylvia]

https://twitter.com/olyphil/status/991769112568385537
"Here is an expanded version on Globetrotting of my @icenetwork story on raising the minimum age for seniors in @ISU_Figure. New version includes comments from Carol Heiss, Sarah Hughes, Robin Cousins."
Link to read: An old debate about the young in figure skating heats up again: is it time to raise the minimum age for seniors? (Globetrotting, May 2nd)

 

[AxelAnnie]

Yes, I think the age should be changed for Seniors. 18 sounds great to me. A mature skater skates a different program than a 14 YO.

I would like to see that side of skating really come to the fore. AND, the COP should be adjusted to reward a balanced program that does not just go from trick to trick. Lines that are held. There is an enormous difference between the skating of Kostner and Tennell.

 

[gkelly]

How would it work if there were two elite ladies' events each offering a separate world title, and existing as separate events in the Olympics?

under 18 (maybe with a minimum age of 12 or 13); 18 and older

The younger event would likely have more ambitious technical content; the older event would likely have more polish overall, better quality on many elements, better "artistry"

But the rules could be the same for each and leave the junior events for younger girls who are not quite ready for seniors technically.

Some fans would love both events equally perhaps for different reasons, some would have a strong preference, some might even choose not to watch the age group they're less interested in, just as some fans have favorite disciplines and others they don't watch at all.

In terms of audience appeal, or number of competitors worldwide, I don't see a need for separate age groups for senior-level events in other disciplines. However, I do think it's important at least to keep the over-15 senior age limit especially for pairs, to avoid teams relying on huge age+size differences for a year or two until the girl grows and they lose their advantage.


Alternatively, there could be separate senior events at least for both men's and women's singles with different rules about content and scoring but the same, looser age restrictions, one in which the TES drives results and one where PCS including skating skills are more important than jump difficulty. The latter would tend to skew toward older athletes, but skaters could enter whichever event suits their own strengths best, or both if they're good enough all around.

 

[mag]

There is an enormous difference between the skating of Kostner and Tennell.

Bradie Tennell is 20 and I believe did her first year as a senior when she was 19. There are lots of “mature” skaters who do not hold their positions or have nice lines, just as there are young skaters who do/have both. Furthermore, I find it fascinating the way Kostner is held up and a shining example of amazing skating, yet she is also the original and still prominent poster child for the messy programs with awkward falls that so many want to penalize harshly.

If we eliminate all the young guns with the big jumps, and then give zeros to all the “mature” skaters who fall, two foot, step out, and under rotate, exactly who will be left?

 

[AxelAnnie]

Bradie Tennell is 20 and I believe did her first year as a senior when she was 19. There are lots of “mature” skaters who do not hold their positions or have nice lines, just as there are young skaters who do/have both. Furthermore, I find it fascinating the way Kostner is held up and a shining example of amazing skating, yet she is also the original and still prominent poster child for the messy programs with awkward falls that so many want to penalize harshly.

If we eliminate all the young guns with the big jumps, and then give zeros to all the “mature” skaters who fall, two foot, step out, and under rotate, exactly who will be left?

Let me start by saying I like Bradie. I had no clue she was that old. Her skating, music, packaging seems very juniorish to me.
As to Kostner....what you say is accurate......except when you watch her Worlds SP - it was IMO all that skating can/should be.

 

[Aussie Willy]

That really should happen no matter what. And put some teeth to it - eg if a coach doesn't sign on to the Code of Ethics, their skaters don't get to compete at ISU-sanctioned events...

I think that is a step in the right direction. But then who overseas the administration and compliance of that? And while you may get one country who will adhere to it then other countries won't. It would be hard to achieve any consistency with the application of it.

 

[skateboy]

I am not for raising the age.

 

[DreamSkates]

Sorry, but Arutunian ...how many injuries has Chen had?
...

According to both Artunian and Chen, Chen is the one who kept pushing the boundaries. He had his mother made decisions that Artunian was not a part of, including the content of Chen's SP at the Olympics. Skaters will choose to practice and include content that a coach might not agree with. Kwan, for example, passed her senior tests without Carroll's knowledge. So it goes.

 

[Orm Irian]

I think that is a step in the right direction. But then who overseas the administration and compliance of that?

Yes, it would require the ISU or another oversight body to step up and get a bit more involved, and is therefore unlikely to happen...

 

[gkelly]

It would be easy enough to require coaches to sign a code of ethics.

It would be impossible to police what every coach in every rink in every country in the world is doing every hour of every day on the ice.

And even if every coach is very strict about the number of jump repetitions they allow their skaters during lessons and supervised practices, there's nothing stopping most skaters from going to another rink, or another session at their own rink when the coach is not present, to get in more repetitions if they think it will give them an edge.

 

[barbk]

I'm surprised to see numerous esteemed coaches (Mishin, especially) supporting this. I could argue it both ways, but I would want to listen carefully to what coaches say.

 

[KatieC]

Sorry, but Arutunian and Orser are flat-out hypocrites in this article. Orser professes concern for Trusova, but he had Gogolev doing 4Lz at 12 (younger than Trusova). Arutunian professes concern for skaters' health, but how many injuries has Chen had?

Like a lot of conversations going on at the moment, I wonder if the conversation would have this tone if baby Americans, or baby Canadians, or baby Japanese ladies were dominating...

If successful young Canadian skaters started giving up due to severe injuries I am positive most Canadian fans would be up in arms about it.