The Dance Hall, Part 4: To Helsinki & Back -- Seeking Rhumba Magic ...

[chantilly]

Carol Lane who is an actual Ice dancing coach said they had completed all the turns before the stumble.
Yes she is a Canadian, but I trust her knowledge more then anyone here quite frankly.
I'm not quite sure about the judging of that element in that what was right or not, but of the element was over as Carol said then it shouldn't count as a missed element.
Think they were fairly marked.
The twizzles was a wobble and not really a full balance check.
I think as there are three twizzles, one could argue that a bobble on one should not dramatically affect the GOE on the element as a whole if they get a lot of other key points, such as speed, Ice coverage, unison, closeness and difficult entry and exit.
Which they did have.

 

[Dobre]

I think it would be difficult to create such a rule. We want smooth transitions between elements. And diversity. You could mandate something like every step sequence begins with a rocker & ends on a double twizzle (or, heaven forbid, lasts exactly a certain number of seconds after a specific step), but the programs would be more generic for the ruling. I'm not a fan of more generic. As it is, the step sequences are looking more and more like the same step sequence being plastered in the middle of every program.

 

[Jeanne7]

Well, it may not be as easy since I read that Moir stumbled on the last turn of the step sequence. If it was the last turn, I'd say it's clearly part of the sequence but the judges obviously disagreed on that one.

But it seems that what you mention is all the more reason to have an authority which says whether the element was over or not. I think it could only be beneficial to everyone involved as it would erase any doubt about the need or not for negative GOE.

But there is an "authority" - the tech team who review everything in super slowmo! They clearly had finished the element, Scott stumbled into a lunge and didn't put weight on his hands, which would have counted as a fall.

 

[ballettmaus]

But there is an "authority" - the tech team who review everything in super slowmo! They clearly had finished the element, Scott stumbled into a lunge and didn't put weight on his hands, which would have counted as a fall.

Someone mentioned in another thread that it's up to the judges to decide whether the element was over or not and if there was a definite call on whether it was over or not why was there negative and positive GOE. If the element had been called as over then there would have been no reason for any negative GOE.

 

[cocotaffy]

Someone mentioned in another thread that it's up to the judges to decide whether the element was over or not and if there was a definite call on whether it was over or not why was there negative and positive GOE. If the element had been called as over then there would have been no reason for any negative GOE.

As an hypothetical now, purely for my understanding. If all the turns are done, the element is counted and should be reviewed by the judges outside of that trip. As you said, judges should not, in that case, give any negative GOE. But a trip in a program should be reflected somehow because it does disrupt the flow and the artistic vision. If GOE can't be used to sanction it then only PCS can reflect such a trip, no ? If yes, which PCS, the SS, the transition because if it's not an element then it's part of the transition. I would say the performance should definitely reflect it.
Interesting case.

 

[Katha]

The FD at Worlds was just all around bad, but I thought the scoring was pretty spot on tbh. Chock/Bates have perhaps my fave FD this season, but they screwed up the twizzles and were therefore dead. They themselves probably know that they shot themselves in the head and cost themselves a potential medal, so no need to dwell on that.

P/C skated a great FD, but sorry, their SDs are usually subpar. This is the third season in a row where the SD isn't up to snuff and they get overscored for it every year to keep them in contention. I thought the point gap between them and V/M in the SD was justified and IMO they couldn't have really complained had it been bigger and other teams had passed them in that portion as well.

Bob/Sol were solid, but seemed overscored in the FD? Perhaps because that Zhulin choreo is so very generic, it doesn't leave an impression on me at all. I'm ready for C/L to skate another program now. It doesn't have to be high angst, but something, anything, that doesn't feel exactly like what they've already been doing for years. The field is so unstable and they are great entertainers, they could set themselves up to stand out more if they took more risks.

 

[allezfred]

They have to work more on the difficulty and complexity in their lifts.

This get repeated ad nauseam, but in the real world Papadakis and Cizeron got Level 4 and mostly +3s on ALL their lifts at Worlds. I'm all ears on how they are supposed to increase their difficulty on lifts though.

 

[Miloune]

People say this because P/C don't necessarily have the most difficult and daring lifts, which is true, BUT they are executed perfectly so... People think that because they don't do acrobatic lifts, they are unable to do them and therefore are inferior compared to couples who do... Which is an opinion that isn't validated by the scoring so until then I don't see them do acrobatic lifts just to impress. Not their style...

 

[VGThuy]

I didn't think V/M could be beaten after their SD advantage, but after seeing the FDs, I do think P/C did enough or were very close to it to bridge the gap. They performed that FD even better than I could have imagined and nearly made me cry with it. Honestly, I've seen Scott and Tessa perform that FD all season and they probably performed it the best at NHK or the GPF, and as much as I love their skating, seeing their product compared to P/C was stark. IMO, P/C's FD was in a totally different league. It is an amazing work of high art. V/M's FD, on the other hand, looked sort of basic in comparison. I usually prefer V/M, but not in the FD.

 

[Miloune]

I didn't think V/M could be beaten after their SD advantage, but after seeing the FDs, I do think P/C did enough or were very close to it to bridge the gap. They performed that FD even better than I could have imagined and nearly made me cry with it. Honestly, I've seen Scott and Tessa perform that FD all season and they probably performed it the best at NHK or the GPF, and as much as I love their skating, seeing their product compared to P/C was stark. IMO, P/C's FD was in a totally different league. It is an amazing work of high art. V/M's FD, on the other hand, looked sort of basic in comparison. I usually prefer V/M, but not in the FD.

I also thought VM skated their FD better at the GPF.

 

[mollymgr]

P/C's lifts are some of the smoothest of the current dance teams. They just float in and out of them effortlessly.

 

[kittysk8ts]

This get repeated ad nauseam, but in the real world Papadakis and Cizeron got Level 4 and mostly +3s on ALL their lifts at Worlds. I'm all ears on how they are supposed to increase their difficulty on lifts though.

People say this because P/C don't necessarily have the most difficult and daring lifts, which is true, BUT they are executed perfectly so... People think that because they don't do acrobatic lifts, they are unable to do them and therefore are inferior compared to couples who do... Which is an opinion that isn't validated by the scoring so until then I don't see them do acrobatic lifts just to impress. Not their style...

Agree with both of these posts.

They scored a world record for their FD. I may not be the brightest poster on this board, but that tells me they don't need to change a thing. Lol.

 

[sap5]

I don't believe P/C have an issue with their lifts either. Under the current scoring system, they're just fine, and that's what counts. As for the FDs, P/C have had the best FD all season long, and I expect them to come out with a completely program next year as well. V/M's FD...never worked for me at any point this season. It did show off some of their improved skills, but I think overall, it felt like the program was aiming for a point it never quite reached. It was almost like "The Seasons" in that way for me. I hope that next year, they pick a concept that they can execute right away, but improve upon as well -- like the way their Prince SD worked this year. For both teams, I'd like to see a real battle in both the SD and FD portions.

 

[VGThuy]

Their Prince SD showed what they're really capable of and why they are legends. Their FD not so much though there are really impressive sections in it.

 

[Miloune]

Their Prince SD showed what they're really capable of and why they are legends. Their FD not so much though there are really impressive sections in it.

I think what most impressed me in their SD is the sharpness. They moved so quickly and were so precise...

 

[ballettmaus]

As an hypothetical now, purely for my understanding. If all the turns are done, the element is counted and should be reviewed by the judges outside of that trip. As you said, judges should not, in that case, give any negative GOE. But a trip in a program should be reflected somehow because it does disrupt the flow and the artistic vision. If GOE can't be used to sanction it then only PCS can reflect such a trip, no ? If yes, which PCS, the SS, the transition because if it's not an element then it's part of the transition. I would say the performance should definitely reflect it.
Interesting case.

That's a good point. I don't think that SS should reflect a stumble; it would be unfair to lower the overall skating skills just because of one mishap. Mistakes can happen to everyone. Performance and transition are a possibility but how much of a mandatory deduction should there be? Maybe there should be a 0.5 deduction for the overall score?


As far as P/C's lifts are concerned - the criticism that they're not complex enough reminds me of ballet performances - often times, it's the man who gets huge applause for his variation because it's impressive. He does the big jumps, the big pirouettes. The lady does her tiny steps and there's polite applause but rarely is the applause as enthusiastic as it is for the guy. And yet, what the lady does is just as difficult as what the man does.
In other words, just because P/C's lifts don't look complex and difficult doesn't mean they are. So many fans were complaining about the acrobatic lifts because that was all the skaters did. I find it refreshing that P/C manage to find a different way achieve a level 4. Skaters don't need to be acrobats and the lifts don't needs to be acrobatic to be beautiful. P/C's lifts fit right in with their FD and way of skating. They're smooth, they look easy and they're beautiful.

 

[kittysk8ts]

As an hypothetical now, purely for my understanding. If all the turns are done, the element is counted and should be reviewed by the judges outside of that trip. As you said, judges should not, in that case, give any negative GOE. But a trip in a program should be reflected somehow because it does disrupt the flow and the artistic vision. If GOE can't be used to sanction it then only PCS can reflect such a trip, no ? If yes, which PCS, the SS, the transition because if it's not an element then it's part of the transition. I would say the performance should definitely reflect it.
Interesting case.

This interests me as well. Clearly the judges were confused on how to grade that ss. Here are some excerpts from the ISU Handbooks:


From the Handbook for Technical Panels 15.09.2016

http://static.isu.org/media/1005/handbook-for-technical-panel-2016-17_revsept2017.pdf

Step Sequences FD

Characteristics of Levels Style A (source: Communications 2003)

Level 3 (for each partner)

Step Sequence is not interrupted more than 10% of the pattern in total, either through Stumbles, Falls or any other reason AND Footwork includes at least 7 Difficult Turns (one of which being a Double Twizzle and out of which one Type cannot be taken into consideration more than 2 times) AND Turns are multidirectional AND A one foot section includes at least 3 different Types of One Foot Section Turns AND (for Step Sequence in Hold only) At least 2 Changes of Hold are included AND At least 2 different Dance Holds are included

Level 4 (for each partner)

Step Sequence is not interrupted at all, either through Stumbles, Falls or any other reason AND Footwork includes at least 9 Difficult Turns (one of which being a Double Twizzle and out of which one Type cannot be taken into consideration more than 2 times) AND Turns are multidirectional AND A one foot section includes the 4 different Types of One Foot Section Turns AND 100% of Difficult Turns are performed clearly on correct Edges and all other Steps/Turns are clean AND (for Step Sequence in Hold only) At least 3 Changes of Hold are included AND At least 3 different Dance Holds are included

Characteristics of Levels Style B (source: Communications …Post Congress)

Level 3 (for each partner)

Step Sequence is not interrupted more than 10% of the pattern in total, either through Stumbles, Falls or any other reason AND Footwork includes at least 4 different Types of Difficult Turns (one of which being a Double Twizzle) AND Turns are multidirectional AND (for Step Sequence in Hold only) At least 2 Changes of Hold are included AND At least 3 different Dance Holds are included

Level 4 (for each partner)

Step Sequence is not interrupted at all, either through Stumbles, Falls or any other reason AND Footwork includes at least 5 different Types of Difficult Turns (one of which being a Double Twizzle) AND Turns are multidirectional AND All Steps/Turns are clean AND (for Step Sequence in Hold only) At least 3 Changes of Hold are included AND At least 3 different Dance Holds are included

From the Handbook for Referees and Judges 19.09.2016
http://static.isu.org/media/1004/handbook-for-referees-and-judges-2016-17.pdf

STEP SEQUENCES (ALSO APPLICABLE TO PARTIAL STEP SEQUENCE): ADJUSTMENTS
LOSSES OF BALANCE, STUMBLES AND FALLS

Loss of Balance by one partner Reduce by 1 grade
Loss of Balance by both partners No higher than 0
Stumble by one partner No higher than 0
Stumble by both partners No higher than -1
Fall by one partner No higher than -2
Fall by both partners No higher than -3

Adjustments to Program Components Loss of Balance or Stumble outside of Required Elements (If a Fall or Interruption affects the rest of the program or part of the program, certain characteristics of one or several Program Components may be impacted.):

Skating Skills

 by one partner - 0.5 per each
 by both partners - 1.0 per each

Communication 1937


So, here are my questions:

1. Was the SS called a level 3 because of the stumble as per the requirements above? Or because they had failed to meet the other requirements for a level 4? Was the stumble deemed to be after the already called level 3 ss?

2. And does the judging panel know the answer to this at the time? Do they need to?

I say yes because how will they know that they need to deduct for a stumble of one partner; they should not have received higher than a zero GOE for the step sequence. And or how will they know to deduct from skating skills for stumble outside of a required element (also above)

Is this a communication error between the tech panel and the judges?

 

[clairecloutier]

I don't know why, but I really didn't have the overwhelming reaction to P/C's FD that so many people here did. Watched it with my husband and, TBH, we were both a bit underwhelmed. Felt they skated it better earlier in the season. Obviously we're the outliers here , so I'll have to rewatch to see what we were missing.

 

[ballettmaus]

So, here are my questions:

1. Was the SS called a level 3 because of the stumble as per the requirements above? Or because they had failed to meet the other requirements for a level 4? Was the stumble deemed to be after the already called level 3 ss?

2. And does the judging panel know the answer to this at the time? Do they need to?

I say yes because how will they know that they need to deduct for a stumble of one partner; they should not have received higher than a zero GOE for the step sequence. And or how will they know to deduct from skating skills for stumble outside of a required element (also above)

Is this a communication error between the tech panel and the judges?

Given that the GOE was all over the place, I'm not so sure. There are three judges who gave -2, so according to the rules, I'd say they viewed it as a fall occuring as part of the step sequence. Oddly enough, there's no -1 or 0, the rest is +1, +2 and even one +3. But I'd say that when the judges gave their GOE, there hadn't been a call on whether or not the stumble was part of the step sequences or if it had been a fall or a stumble. Seems like both was up to the judges?

 

[kittysk8ts]

Given that the GOE was all over the place, I'm not so sure. There are three judges who gave -2, so according to the rules, I'd say they viewed it as a fall occuring as part of the step sequence. Oddly enough, there's no -1 or 0, the rest is +1, +2 and even one +3. But I'd say that when the judges gave their GOE, there hadn't been a call on whether or not the stumble was part of the step sequences or if it had been a fall or a stumble. Seems like both was up to the judges?

Right, and I think the judges need to be aware if the stumble is part of element. Seems this was unclear based on the range of GOEs.

 

[cocotaffy]

Basically the tech panel didn't do his job leaving it to the judges hence the confusion in the GOE.

On another note, anyone else surprised that the newlyweds LeGac/Lauriault didn't make the cut ? They couldn't get their levels compared to Euros. It's a pity, they're a lovely team with nice qualities.

 

[Wyliefan]

On another note, anyone else surprised that the newlyweds LeGac/Lauriault didn't make the cut ? They couldn't get their levels compared to Euros. It's a pity, they're a lovely teams with nice qualities.

I was. Hope they do better next year!

 

[Miloune]

Basically the tech panel didn't do his job leaving it to the judges hence the confusion in the GOE.

On another note, anyone else surprised that the newlyweds LeGac/Lauriault didn't make the cut ? They couldn't get their levels compared to Euros. It's a pity, they're a lovely teams with nice qualities.

Yes they only score 56 pts... the bar was high to get in the top 20! They'll do better next year I'm sure!

 

[marbri]

Right, and I think the judges need to be aware if the stumble is part of element. Seems this was unclear based on the range of GOEs.

I don't think there is any way for them to tell the judges this with the current system. It's not like with jumps where you can use ! e or downgrade symbols. There is nothing like that in the program.

Sometimes these situations happen that can improve the system. I know their step sequence from watching it many times but someone who isn't familiar (a judge even) may not know. Particularly in a FD like that where all the transitions make it seem as one big step sequence.

 

[firstflight]

I don't know why, but I really didn't have the overwhelming reaction to P/C's FD that so many people here did. Watched it with my husband and, TBH, we were both a bit underwhelmed. Felt they skated it better earlier in the season. Obviously we're the outliers here , so I'll have to rewatch to see what we were missing.

I thought this was their most "into it" and therefore intense performance of the season, but my SO and I both preferred the original music from the debut. We liked it more bare/stark because it matched with the movements better, in our opinions. I get why they were pressured to enrich the music, but my favorite total performance was from TDF.

 

[clairecloutier]

I thought this was their most "into it" and therefore intense performance of the season, but my SO and I both preferred the original music from the debut. We liked it more bare/stark because it matched with the movements better, in our opinions. I get why they were pressured to enrich the music, but my favorite total performance was from TDF.

Okay, so the music was different? I thought it was. Yes, it seemed like some drums or something were added to the first section, and that it was less spare/striking? Okay. That may explain things, partly, in terms of our reaction. We too enjoyed the TDF performance more than this one.

 

[firstflight]

Okay, so the music was different? I thought it was. Yes, it seemed like some drums or something were added to the first section, and that it was less spare/striking? Okay. That may explain things, partly, in terms of our reaction. We too enjoyed the TDF performance more than this one.

The section starting with the twizzles had notes added in both the treble and bass clef to make it more melodic. The section after that starting with the pairs spin was even more "tampered with" with an entire angst-pop-song-type chord progression layered on to make it sound more conventional.

 

[aftershocks]

I was happy to see a new Dance Hall thread this morning. Until I read the opening post which is mostly bashing of V/M and their fans. And unfortunately, you didn't stop there. Sigh.

I am happy that V/M won, albeit on the strength of their SD. Yes, Scott was disappointed in himself and I don't think any team quite enjoys a win that comes with a less than perfect skate. And of course the other competitors and their fans do not like it either. I get it. Just goes to show it is a 2 program race.

I am happy that P/C won the FD. They skated it absolutely beautifully. Just stunning. They really needed that. They needed to know how they would score against V/M with a clean skate. And now they know that with a good SD, they can beat V/M. Next season is going to be crazy.

Shibs, yeah! To come back and take bronze after a disappointing SD placement was great to see. They deserve some love.

H/D. I am gutted. But not all was lost here for them. They now know for sure that they CAN be right up there on the podium. The result of the SD is very encouraging and I hope that is what they take with them from this competition.

W/P finally had 2 good skates and were soooo close in score to the Shibs. Well done.

C/B - i have not looked at their scoresheet and I thought they skated well......what happened? They scored well under their season's best.

B/S - I thought they were overscored a bit. It appeared they botched their final step sequence. At least to my eye.

Well, it certainly was an intense event, lol. I am sad that the season is over, except for WTT of course.

I appreciate you @kittysk8ts as one of the nice, sane and sensible V/M fans. So, I don't include all V/M fans in my tongue-in-cheek punching. I don't think my post was "mostly bashing of V/M and their fans." It was mostly a reflection of and ranting about what happened re the ice dance judging in Helsinki. And so I got it off my chest. That was my immediate reaction and I stand by it, except I don't include all V/M fans. I think my reaction was mild compared to some of the perpetual outrage and bitterness often expressed by V/M fans over the years, when things did not go V/M's way. There's a tendency for V/M fans to be overly sensitive. And there are so many on FSU, so other fans are often outnumbered. I do give a lot of credit to Canadian fans for being probably the best fans in the world, and most of the time they are very generous to all skaters. But it's also evident that Canadians are generally very over-protective of their skaters.

As I said, I think V/M's SD has been great all season long and they deserve so much credit for how strong they have come back, which is not easy to do. In terms of their expertise, polish and experience, V/M have still got the magic. In that sense, of course they are still the better team overall. But the thing is, their FD is not that wonderful. I would rate P/C's, the Shibs', H/D's, and even G/P's FDs ahead of V/M's. But since V/M have that special magic and they've proven that their skills are still good, I understand them being rated ahead of everyone else on paper.

However, I do not think it's fair for V/M to get all the breaks when they don't perform that well and their training mates and fiercest rivals (P/C) do perform lights out.

The Shibs deserve a lot more than love, they deserve respect and they deserve credit for their excellence. They also deserve for fans to stop trying to tear them down constantly for picayune reasons. They are very competitive and they always come prepared, without whining about anything. In that way, they are a lot like D/W.

I have a soft place in my heart for W/P. It was rough for them with V/M coming back. But to be honest, V/M's decision to come back was made easier by W/P's less than stellar showing at 2016 4CCs and Worlds. Of course by that point, W/P knew that V/M were planning to come back and it may have affected them. The other thing is that W/P have needed to make changes in order to find a way to stand out more performance-wise. They are definitely trying hard and making a lot of progress under Morosov. So desperate measures can pay off. I wish W/P luck going forward. However, it's pretty clear that the Russian campaign to push B/S up as much as possible to try and set them up for a podium battle in Pyeongchang, is in full swing. I don't think B/S are better than either the Shibs, W/P, C/L, G/P or H/D.

This year it seemed to take forever for Worlds to finally arrive, and then it's suddenly over with a bang and a whimper. That's figure skating!

WTT is mostly a lark and the results don't have that much relevance, although it will be fun to see who is there, and to see how many teams will perform well after an intense season.

I take exception to any suggestion that Scott behaved inappropriately this weekend. He wasn't upset at the judges. He was upset at himself for making a fluke error that he probably never makes. He's a competitive athlete who wants to skate his best every time.

But that's where your uber over-sensitivity shows. I did not criticize Scott for his behavior this weekend. My saying that Scott didn't initially smile in the kiss 'n cry after winning is not a criticism, it's an observation that's complimentary of his recognition that he did not skate his best but still won. And not in the way he would like to have won. Of course he's a competitor who wants to put his best out there every time. In Helsinki he didn't.

 

[aftershocks]

I don't know why, but I really didn't have the overwhelming reaction to P/C's FD that so many people here did. Watched it with my husband and, TBH, we were both a bit underwhelmed. Felt they skated it better earlier in the season. Obviously we're the outliers here , so I'll have to rewatch to see what we were missing.

I was underwhelmed by P/C's FD at the beginning of the season. It was unclear what they were trying to do. It seemed schizophrenic from the first half to the second half. The thing that impresses me is how P/C stuck to their guns and their vision, and reworked their FD to the point where they performed it so brilliantly at Europeans and Worlds. And their vision has taken hold beautifully to where the program has become seamless and a whole work of art, rather than two disparate halves. I realize that some people are turned off by their different music choice in the first half. But now somehow I really get it, and I think it has become a remarkable part of their tremendous artistic journey. They are very special people and ice dancers. I bow down to P/C for their talent and for the way they have conducted themselves on and off the ice this season.

P/C are magic on ice when they are in the zone. And to get there it takes hard work, tremendous skill, belief, dedication and vision. Those qualities P/C have got in spades. They are very young yet of course (although I doubt they enjoy Scott referencing them as 'kids' ). P/C will certainly benefit from gaining more and more experience under their belts going forward. And they of course need to continually work on improving some of the technical aspects of their skating. Granted that their SD never quite fully gelled. But all credit due for how they worked on it, made improvements and performed the best they possibly could with it, giving it a lot more verve, energy and commitment as the season progressed.

After this season, I'm quite eager to see what P/C are gonna do moving forward. Ditto for the Shibs, H/D, G/P, and W/P.

 

[marbri]

It's funny because I got the FD at their first GP event and feel it was unfortunate they had to change it to make so the rest of you could get it.