The Dance Hall, Part 4: To Helsinki & Back -- Seeking Rhumba Magic ...

[Isabelle.G]

I'm just expressing my opinion. You take it too far. And I don't think you are behaving maturely, even not for an Admin. It's just my observation. I'm not interested in the argument you are desperately starting.

I love the lifts. I share this idea/preference of theirs that they prefer lifts that are less acrobatic. That being said, I think they need to add more to the first and the last one. It's beautiful, for me, but I'd suggest either adding more to it or do a more difficult one, at least at the end of the dance. We'll see. This was the first international competition, so I think changes may be expected before we'll see them next time.
Interpretation - I wasn't very happy about the music cuts when I saw the program for the first time. We were all able to see it in a much better quality yesterday and I like it much more. But the same as I said about the lifts - maybe more playing with the music will improve the dance as well. Also, I noticed they were a little behind in the presto part. Again, it's just the beginning of the season, I expect more polishing from them. From all the teams that I've seen, basically.

 

[forthewin]

Your "opinion" has no basis in fact. Sorry that you are upset about being called out on it. Have a nice day.

Lol, when will you give it a break? Why am I upset because of a nobody on the Internet?? Can you grow up just a little bit?

 

[nimi]

Came here to discuss Finlandia (I was there for the weekend & mostly offline) but after browsing through the last few pages... Nevermind...

 

[Maddie Sparks]

Regardless of what you think of P/C's lifts, echoing what has already been said before me, the fact is they are getting LVL4's and +3GOE's. I don't actually think they are "easy" lifts by any means, however, they are quite simple in their construction, but this allows P/C to keep their speed and flow throughout. It's smart choreography and MF should be applauded. MF and P/C have put together a beautiful FD that minimizes chances of them making any huge mistakes, while showcasing all their strengths. More power to them that they can get great technical scores while making it seem effortless.

 

[MarieM]

Came here to discuss Finlandia (I was there for the weekend & mostly offline) but after browsing through the last few pages... Nevermind...

Oh please, we want to know.

 

[millyskate]

I'm not commenting on this years' lifts, but regarding previous seasons.. I will say that when you have a slow-mo look at a lot of P/C lifts they are incredible balancing acts, and they manage to look flawless throughout. Just watching the struggle bus that couples were going through with the same style of lift at Nebelhorn was a great indication of how complicated they are.

There are a couple of pics here which illustrate what I mean. When compared to pics of other couples doing similar lifts, one can really appreciate the level of detail with P/C, and the smoothness throughout.

 

[marbri]

I do think the evaluation of lifts is an issue but I noticed it first back in 2010 when most teams were doing complicated lifts with fast changes of position and then Belbin/Agosto came out with one where she stood on his foot and leaned forward like a sail in the wind. It was very beautiful of course but it was jarring in it's simplicity and in the realisation that standing on your partners boot and stretching outward was enough for L4. I imagine they tried to address this in part with the choreo lift but it's still interesting to see how little is needed for a L4.

Where I think the unfairness arises (for lack of a better word because I know it's fair as per the rules) is that I don't think fans and judges view them equally depending on who does them.

 

[Isabelle.G]

I'm not commenting on this years' lifts, but regarding previous seasons.. I will say that when you have a slow-mo look at a lot of P/C lifts they are incredibly balancing acts, and they manage to look flawless throughout. Just watching the struggle bus that couples were going through with the same style of lift at Nebelhorn was a great indication of how complicated they are.

There are a couple of pics here which illustrate what I mean. When compared to pics of other couples doing similar lifts, one can really appreciate the level of detail with P/C, and the smoothness throughout.

Sometimes I think how the free dance would have eventually looked like if they had competed and worked on that the whole season...

Came here to discuss Finlandia (I was there for the weekend & mostly offline) but after browsing through the last few pages... Nevermind...

Oh no, share your opinions, experience, anything! Please!

 

[sap5]

Where I think the unfairness arises (for lack of a better word because I know it's fair as per the rules) is that I don't think fans and judges view them equally depending on who does them.

Are you saying fans don't view them equally but judges do, or that judges don't view lifts equally depending on who does them?

 

[forthewin]

Regardless of what you think of P/C's lifts, echoing what has already been said before me, the fact is they are getting LVL4's and +3GOE's. I don't actually think they are "easy" lifts by any means, however, they are quite simple in their construction, but this allows P/C to keep their speed and flow throughout. It's smart choreography and MF should be applauded. MF and P/C have put together a beautiful FD that minimizes chances of them making any huge mistakes, while showcasing all their strengths. More power to them that they can get great technical scores while making it seem effortless.

I'm no judge but a viewer. I think many audience like me wanna see more exciting elements which will increase the popularity of ice dance. I think P/C have been lowering the standard of ID technical requirements in the last couple of years. No dance holds, simpler lifts, etc. Sure, it doesn't matter to them as long as they got the marks. But is it really good for the development of ID in the long run?

 

[dramagrrl]

Your "opinion" has no basis in fact. Sorry that you are upset about being called out on it. Have a nice day.

Neither do any of yours. I hope you won't be too upset about being called out on it! Have a lovely day!

 

[allezfred]

Neither do any of yours. I hope you won't be too upset about being called out on it! Have a lovely day!

Would you like me to show you the protocols where Papadakis/Cizeron are getting Level 4 and +3 GOEs or are you disputing they exist?

 

[EYGH]

I'm not commenting on this years' lifts, but regarding previous seasons.. I will say that when you have a slow-mo look at a lot of P/C lifts they are incredibly balancing acts, and they manage to look flawless throughout. Just watching the struggle bus that couples were going through with the same style of lift at Nebelhorn was a great indication of how complicated they are.

There are a couple of pics here which illustrate what I mean. When compared to pics of other couples doing similar lifts, one can really appreciate the level of detail with P/C, and the smoothness throughout.

Not only the balancing act but the speed is very noticeable. And I'm not talking only of P/C here. The "low" lifts done close to the ice with great speed and the lady's face facing the ice always impress me because if there is a mishap the damage to the face could be tremendous.

 

[dramagrrl]

Would you like me to show you the protocols where Papadakis/Cizeron are getting Level 4 and +3 GOEs or are you disputing they exist?

The poster you were attacking didn't say that the Levels 4s/+3 GOEs didn't exist. They said that their personal opinion was that the lifts were not difficult enough to deserve that level. They did not say anywhere that they thought the scores or levels were unfair according to the rulebook; they said that their opinion was that in order to raise the bar technically in ice dance overall, the lifts should be less simplistic, and that to them, P/C's FD lifts lacked "wow factor". Therefore, you can quote whatever protocols you want, but that would not mean that the opinions posted had no basis in fact. The vast majority of your opinions, such as your belief that P/C's FD is sublime and the best FD this season, are also completely subjective and quoting scores/levels actually doesn't lend them any "basis in fact".

 

[levineismine]

Came here to discuss Finlandia (I was there for the weekend & mostly offline) but after browsing through the last few pages... Nevermind...

Please share your impressions, I always look forward to reports from people who attend competitions!

And maybe we can bring the thread back on track, following the original intent of @clairecloutier of being a productive discussion.

Please take personal issues to pm?

Thanks, an ice dance fan.

 

[marbri]

Are you saying fans don't view them equally but judges do, or that judges don't view lifts equally depending on who does them?

I think both at times.

 

[starrynight]

It was very beautiful of course but it was jarring in it's simplicity and in the realisation that standing on your partners boot and stretching outward was enough for L4. I imagine they tried to address this in part with the choreo lift but it's still interesting to see how little is needed for a L4.

Yes. My introduction to ice dance was through Davis/White so I was of course very used to extremely athletic lifts. It's been a bit of an eye opener to see that absolutely nowhere near that level of athletics and acrobatics is actually required for a level 4 and +3 GOE.

It makes judging the lifts tricky because once the requirements of the Level 4 are there - only a few extra points can be added on with GOE - making the range of marks available for lifts apparently varying significantly in difficulty quite small.

One does wonder what the incentive is for teams persisting with difficult lifts where things can go wrong. The small margin of slightly higher points is probably not worth the risk. Although perhaps if a team is not earmarked for top spots it is necessary to stand out.

Overall, I'd say the regression in dance lifts (and the lack of incentive in the marks to push the level of difficulty) is a bit of a buzz kill for the ~sport~. The current theme of 'you don't need to do any more to get high marks so why bother' feels like a cheat sheet has been found. (But at the very least some coaches have put a lot of effort into figuring out the absolute bare minimum required - obviously clever, but probably not particularly inspirational).

But no doubt the fashion will change soon enough. No doubt something else new and shiny will become sought after in ice dance in the next quad.

 

[Anyasnake]

I'm no judge but a viewer. I think many audience like me wanna see more exciting elements which will increase the popularity of ice dance. I think P/C have been lowering the standard of ID technical requirements in the last couple of years. No dance holds, simpler lifts, etc. Sure, it doesn't matter to them as long as they got the marks. But is it really good for the development of ID in the long run?

Hello. I'm guessing by exciting elements you mean more acrobatics. I guess it's okay to have your own style, what suits you better. But not everybody is Meryl & Charlie or Tessa & Scott or Chock&Bates. So during the 2010-2014 era, the acrobatic lifts were En Vogue, and the athletic style too. And where Tessa&Scott lost is exactly here : First, I don't think it was suitable for her injuries AT ALL, and that first lift in their 2014 FD, I just thought that she was going to be dropped, it wasn't aesthetically pleasing. Scott always had an advantage on Charlie with the low lifts with the spread-eagle position, like Guillaume, and since D/W were winning, maybe Marina thought it wasn't the right road to take. Instead of having huge, "in your face" lifts, we could have had very low lifts almost touching the ice, with a lot of speed, it would have been much more beautiful AND it is as impressive.
For the second part, "lowering the standards of ID"... it's been more than 3 years since their 1st World title. People need to get over it, really... Truthfully speaking, I like the deeper edges, don't you ? It's a different style than the 2010-2014 era that a lot a people seems to appreciate, and that is much more suitable to V/M. Who knows what will happen after 2018, we could see another change.

 

[marbri]

Not only the balancing act but the speed is very noticeable. And I'm not talking only of P/C here. The "low" lifts done close to the ice with great speed and the lady's face facing the ice always impress me because if there is a mishap the damage to the face could be tremendous.

I would think the opposite. Lower centre of gravity in lower lifts should make them easier to balance. As for physical damage the lower the fall I would think the impact with ice not as severe as if the fall was from a higher point. But you have to have strong fit legs to squat which could explain why another team might struggle more.

 

[EYGH]

I totally disagree with the statement that a spectacular looking lift equals technically difficult and risky whereas a "simplistic" looking one is easy and not difficult/dangerous. It is not true.

 

[Anyasnake]

Came here to discuss Finlandia (I was there for the weekend & mostly offline) but after browsing through the last few pages... Nevermind...

Please do ! Threads can go nuts sometimes, but what we want is that !

 

[EYGH]

I would think the opposite. Lower centre of gravity in lower lifts should make them easier to balance. As for physical damage the lower the fall I would think the impact with ice not as severe as if the fall was from a higher point. But you have to have strong fit legs to squat which could explain why another team might struggle more.

The lower you are to the ice the less time and space you have to turn or put your arms/hands to protect your head or your face in case of a fall.

 

[double runner]

The lower you are to the ice the less time and space you have to turn or put your arms/hands to protect your head or your face in case of a fall.

I would rather suffer from a one foot fall than a 6 feet fall.

 

[EYGH]

I remember an interview of Coomes/Buckland after Penny's knee injury. It was on Europe On Ice I believe and Penny was explaining how the injury occured. She said something like "they were practicing this new cool lift which was one of those lifts that looked really hard but was surprisingly easy". Sometimes it doesn't take much to be hurt seriously (like Penny's knee and Gabriella's concussion)

 

[double runner]

Full disclosure, I am a V/M fan.

I think what draws me to them is their mix of athleticism with grace and style. From time to time, we have to remind ourselves that despite its beauty, ID is still a sport. So yes, it requires some athleticism and there are other things I can watch if I wanted to just see "dance."

As someone stated above, simply being able to check off the requirements and getting full value doesn't necessarily make two lifts of equal difficulty. Some teams have successfully met the requirements to get Level 4s, and good for them but one does feel cheated watching a simple lift vs a difficult lift receive the same points. It's not an attack on the skaters themselves but rather, against the ISU for allowing teams to get away with what feels like a loophole.

Anyways, just my two cents.

 

[starrynight]

I wonder if they need to add more levels (or something) to judging of ice dance lifts to allow more room for difficulty to recognised? 4 Levels doesn't seem to be enough.

 

[millyskate]

Or just maybe, acrobatic lifts is not the direction the ISU wants to encourage ice dancers to pursue. After all, there is pairs for that.

 

[chapis]

I doubt if other couples made such basic lifts, they would be receiving high marks. I do not understand why this lift https://youtu.be/vXH9NUYeLKA?t=70 deserves 5.82, while this one deserves 6.2 https://youtu.be/GNgbCDR2FM0?t=55

 

[marbri]

i think there is room for both style of lifts if they enhance the choreography. I think it is easy to spot the difference.

 

[clairecloutier]

It would be interesting to hear from the skaters themselves about which types of dance lifts they consider more or less difficult. Fans can speculate, but skaters are the ones actually doing the lifts. It's also possible that certain types of lifts are easier for some teams, other types are easier for other teams.

As a spectator, I like having a variety of dance lifts in programs. There was a period, perhaps reaching its height in 2011-2014?, when it seemed like most of the lifts were the fast rotational type w/many position changes. As difficult as these lifts probably were, they all started to look much the same after a while. So I like that we're now seeing more variety with stationary spin lifts, low arcing lifts, etc. I wouldn't want to go back to everyone doing the same thing.

In pairs, lifts are categorized into different groups--i.e., hand-to-hip "star" lifts, hand-to-hand lifts, etc. There are certain limits on how many lifts pairs can include--for example, only 2 out of 3 lifts in the LP can be lasso lifts. I wonder if something similar might be put in place for dance. Just a thought .... not sure if it would work.