The Dance Hall 9: Bring the Bling or No Beijing 2021-2022

[VGThuy]

At the minute it isn't (I'm just going on the goe/level charts that they publish every season - I think they offically call it the Scale of Values?) - so for example you could do a L2 step sequence and get +5 which would be 6.95+4.84 but if you got a L4 sequence with +5 you would get 8.45+4.84. So yes, the technical base is higher but the GOE isn't just now

You're right! I thought it was like singles where it was factored in amount. Wow! They really wanted the judges to have more power this time around. Remember the last Olympic cycle where the callers really determined the medalists and skate order?

 

[muffinplus]

Out of curiosity, do lower level elements (L2/L3) receive a lot of +5s?

I think if they have explain each GOE given, it might take forever... or maybe not if it's supposed to be a a really automatic process for judges

 

[morqet]

Out of curiosity, do lower level elements (L2/L3) receive a lot of +5s?

I think if they have explain each GOE given, it might take forever... or maybe not if it's supposed to be a a really automatic process for judges

I guess you have to remember that the scoring system needs to work across all levels, not just elite. So you could see a novice team doing a purposeful level 2 set of twizzles, but if they are really good twizzles, why shouldn’t it get +4 or +5?
Plus with footwork sequences, you could be at level 1 because the sequence isn’t constructed with all the required turns for a higher level - either because they don’t understand the technical requirements or they don’t have the capability to deliver it. But if it has good flow, speed and fits the music it still deserves a high grade of execution. If however, it’s set up to be level 4, but the turns aren’t executed cleanly, that deserves lower GOE.

But I do agree that there should be more differentiation between base values, and I’d like to see more weight given to footwork sequences over lifts & choreo elements.

 

[VGThuy]

Out of curiosity, do lower level elements (L2/L3) receive a lot of +5s?

I think if they have explain each GOE given, it might take forever... or maybe not if it's supposed to be a a really automatic process for judges

I don't think they get 5s (maybe they will later in the season) but one example is all the 4s Hubbell/Donohue got for their level 2 Midline step seq. and the 4s Chock/Bates got for their level 1 Midline step sequence in the RD at 2021 Skate America.

 

[litenkyckling]

I guess you have to remember that the scoring system needs to work across all levels, not just elite. So you could see a novice team doing a purposeful level 2 set of twizzles, but if they are really good twizzles, why shouldn’t it get +4 or +5?
Plus with footwork sequences, you could be at level 1 because the sequence isn’t constructed with all the required turns for a higher level - either because they don’t understand the technical requirements or they don’t have the capability to deliver it. But if it has good flow, speed and fits the music it still deserves a high grade of execution. If however, it’s set up to be level 4, but the turns aren’t executed cleanly, that deserves lower GOE.

But I do agree that there should be more differentiation between base values, and I’d like to see more weight given to footwork sequences over lifts & choreo elements.

Yeah, I think these rules may only work best for elite levels - but I think that it's ok for elite levels to have more stringent rules, especially when they may face more scrutiny at say, the Olympics.

 

[Khaleesi]

I have no idea what her eating disorder has to do with Nikita? Also, raging at Elena (if true) makes him a jerk not an abuser.

Sorry, I know the thread has moved on but just wanted to quickly respond to this. Raging at an intimate partner (or anyone for that matter) is absolutely abusive. Verbal abuse is a very real thing. Many abusers think because they're not being physical it's not abuse, but it is; as is mental abuse. At this point Morozov needs to be investigated (preferably locked up) as a sexual predator. Thanks for taking the time to explain your post @Mad for Skating.

Very sad to see GPF canceled but better safe than sorry.

 

[VGThuy]

Agreed. Verbal abuse is abuse and is incredibly harmful and long lasting.

 

[muffinplus]

Sorry, I know the thread has moved on but just wanted to quickly respond to this. Raging at an intimate partner (or anyone for that matter) is absolutely abusive. Verbal abuse is a very real thing. Many abusers think because they're not being physical it's not abuse, but it is; as is mental abuse. At this point Morozov needs to be investigated (preferably locked up) as a sexual predator. Thanks for taking the time to explain your post @Mad for Skating.

Very sad to see GPF canceled but better safe than sorry.

I don’t want to play semantics and I don’t know what ”Raging“ means to you but i take it to mean the same as being furious… of course that can have abusive elements or violent elements but by itself the word does not have that connotation to me. So that is what I am talking about. I don’t know why you needed to single that out tbh... as I did not say anything about verbal “abuse” or implied that is okay.

 

[aka_gerbil]

I also equate raging and furious. Both can be abusive…. Or not.

 

[Wyliefan]

"Furious" is an adjective. You can be furious at someone and act in any number of ways. "Raging" is a verb and implies a specific behavior, namely yelling and otherwise actively showing your anger toward the other person.

Thus spake the English major.

 

[muffinplus]

"Furious" is an adjective. You can be furious at someone and act in any number of ways. "Raging" is a verb and implies a specific behavior, namely yelling and otherwise actively showing your anger toward the other person.

Thus spake the English major.

I equate raging to “being furious” then… but yeah as I said being furious can be abusive or not.. hopefully we can go back to discussing ice dance now

 

[mjb52]

I guess another touchy issue when it comes to the ODs is to what extent teams may be being conservative with regard to an increasing number of potential themes (folk, street dance) for fear of being accused of cultural appropriation rather than fear of actually engaging in cultural appropriation and how to maybe encourage them to be more daring without inadvertently increasing the odds that they will do something genuinely offensive, which is something no one wants.

This is, frankly, something I struggle with a lot as a creative person myself. In fiction, you want to write in a way that reflects the diversity of the world but it can be very hard to know whether you are getting it right or not. I definitely think teams have held back a little on street dance, which may actually be a good thing, but I'm not sure what we are seeing is precisely what the ISU had in mind.

I think this will be an ongoing issue, because pretty much anything you can do in ice dancing touches on some culture's heritage - tango, flamenco, etc... - and as the world gets more conscious, which I definitely think is good overall, it creates more questions about that part of the sport which are tough to answer. I'm curious about if the ballroom world has encountered this or not and how it's written about there.

In that way, iirc, the OSP's were perhaps easier, because everyone was doing the same thing and it was coming from the ISU not the skaters themselves.

I don't like the idea that has been proposed in the context of singles for a technical program and an artistic program, but in dance maybe that could solve some of these issues? A program very focused on steps, holds, transitions, etc... vs. a program more focused on artistry and storytelling (although how that would be judged is another question).

 

[Khaleesi]

"Furious" is an adjective. You can be furious at someone and act in any number of ways. "Raging" is a verb and implies a specific behavior, namely yelling and otherwise actively showing your anger toward the other person.

Thus spake the English major.

Yes, this is what I take "raging" to mean, a descriptive action like yelling and cursing at someone. So that's why that specific part of your post jumped out at me when I was getting caught up with the thread @muffinplus nothing personal. I'm sure you don't think verbal abuse is ok And that's my last post on the topic.

 

[Mad for Skating]

Sorry, I know the thread has moved on but just wanted to quickly respond to this. Raging at an intimate partner (or anyone for that matter) is absolutely abusive. Verbal abuse is a very real thing. Many abusers think because they're not being physical it's not abuse, but it is; as is mental abuse. At this point Morozov needs to be investigated (preferably locked up) as a sexual predator. Thanks for taking the time to explain your post @Mad for Skating.

Very sad to see GPF canceled but better safe than sorry.

Thank you for bringing up the mental abuse. Arguments are normal, but going off at your partner and blaming her for getting groomed by a man twice her age is definitely mental abuse.

I completely agree about Morozov - that man has caused so much trouble in the skating world, and it’s infuriating that he hasn’t gotten any significant consequences for his actions.

 

[mjb52]

Your determination to keep bringing up questionable info that you have at best third-hand, while framing it as though it was factual, after already having told all of twitter about a video that you seem to have been mistaken about, is getting a little problematic itself for me, frankly. Is it that hard to include some qualifiers in your phrasing?

As for Morozov, current events with him remind me that when it comes to Russia most of us here are dealing with a totally different culture than our own. I am super interested in it, but I know I don't really understand it or why the Davankova thing wasn't the final straw for him. The good thing is that the younger coaches seem to be trying to grapple with some of these issues and I think being aware of the conversation going on in the US about them has raised more discussion of them in Russia too.

 

[sap5]

I guess another touchy issue when it comes to the ODs is to what extent teams may be being conservative with regard to an increasing number of potential themes (folk, street dance) for fear of being accused of cultural appropriation rather than fear of actually engaging in cultural appropriation and how to maybe encourage them to be more daring without inadvertently increasing the odds that they will do something genuinely offensive, which is something no one wants.

This is, frankly, something I struggle with a lot as a creative person myself. In fiction, you want to write in a way that reflects the diversity of the world but it can be very hard to know whether you are getting it right or not. I definitely think teams have held back a little on street dance, which may actually be a good thing, but I'm not sure what we are seeing is precisely what the ISU had in mind.

I think this will be an ongoing issue, because pretty much anything you can do in ice dancing touches on some culture's heritage - tango, flamenco, etc... - and as the world gets more conscious, which I definitely think is good overall, it creates more questions about that part of the sport which are tough to answer. I'm curious about if the ballroom world has encountered this or not and how it's written about there.

In that way, iirc, the OSP's were perhaps easier, because everyone was doing the same thing and it was coming from the ISU not the skaters themselves.

I don't like the idea that has been proposed in the context of singles for a technical program and an artistic program, but in dance maybe that could solve some of these issues? A program very focused on steps, holds, transitions, etc... vs. a program more focused on artistry and storytelling (although how that would be judged is another question).

One way to avoid cultural appropriation arguments is to be respectful of an art form and work with choreographers who are experienced in the style you would like to use to make sure you are doing the movements properly.

There’s no way to get a sign off from any one person saying “yes, this represents our entire culture appropriately,” but what you can do is show that you are respectful of the dance, you took the time to learn about the dance, how it developed, why the movements are the way they are, and can show that you chose your movements with care and purpose.

 

[ice crystal]

@Mad for Skating
From what I have seen you posting on Twitter and here, you don't have proof of your assertions re. Katsalapov. I remember your posts in another thread a while ago where you shared you are still a minor. Maybe not anymore now. In any event, it would be a good move to familiarise yourself with the law around defamation. In a nutshell, if you can't prove in a court of law that it is the truth, don't say it!!

 

[Belsornia]

One way to avoid cultural appropriation arguments is to be respectful of an art form and work with choreographers who are experienced in the style you would like to use to make sure you are doing the movements properly.

This is what would happen ideally, and I’m a fan of ice dancers working with off ice choreographers in general. But in practice a lot of teams - particularly younger or lower level skaters - don’t have the resources to bring in external experts and have to get their choreo from their regular coaching teams. So I understand why they play it safe and manage to shoehorn the tried and tested ice dance hits into the theme of the year.

 

[topaz]

That all sounds a bit desperate. Weren’t Ilinykh/Katsalapov the last team that had any sort of “success” with him?

I do not condone Nickolai M's behavior(past). However, I really like his daughter and her partner. I prefer them over D/S, K/B.

The rhythm dances need an overhaul and I miss strict adherences to rhythm and character.

Chile say it again. I was watching a replay of the 2012 World's SD on youtube.

 

[Dobre]

Morozov can maybe package Step&Bukin better. She can't skate, but he knows how to deal with that.

Dear ****, I dread seeing him get ahold of their packaging & torturing us with the bare handful of warhorses he has in his musical repertoire.

I like this team very much. Their liveliness & vivacity. The last thing I need to see from Stepanova & Bukin is Tosca or Black Swan, etc. S&B are perfectly at home skating to pop culture icons. And I actually can't say that very many skaters pull that off as successfully. Though the Piaf Carmen worked too. And, of course, the blues. (I'm skimming through their playlist, & I'd actually blocked out that they skated to Liebestraum so I guess that didn't really sing for me).

If he wants to help, he should help with skating skills & ice coverage since that is what most people seem to complain about.

I actually posted my thoughts on this recently on GS so I'm just going to repost those here as I feel quite passionately about this! I'm not sure if it would make it totally less subjective, but I think they would push the sport more technically, which I think it's lacking a little of at the minute.

• Bigger points differences between levels. Teams need to be incentivised to actually hit their levels, because just now I totally get why they focus more on getting high GOE over a level 4 step sequence. We have yet to see a single L4 step sequence this season, which is frankly ridiculous considering the talent.
• Factored GOE. You should not be able to get +5 for an element that isn't a level 4 because that literally makes no sense and increases the likelihood of corrupt and unfair judging.
• Less choreo elements. I don't hate these, but the weight they have makes no sense. Plus, GOE is handed out here and often lower ranked teams have really creative elements and get little reward, yet higher ranked teams do easy and boring choreo elements and get +5?? These definitely need properly factored GOE. Allow 2 in a FD as a maximum.
• No repeat lifts across programmes. If you've used it in the RD you can't have in the FD. Lifts are scored too easily as it is, in my opinion.

I support these, particularly the first two.

I like the one-foot step sequences, though I don't dislike the others. Perhaps the athletes could have an equally-weighted choice? (Equally weighted because if it's not, no one will choose the less-weighted option).

No repeated lifts is an interesting suggestion. There is only one in the RD, and it's usually best if it suits the theme. I think that should be considered for criteria. It shouldn't be so generic that it can be plunked down in a purposely contrasting free as well.

I like that some of the choreo elements have gotten to the point where they are harder & more dynamic in order to bring in the points; but I agree that the current use of them is not working at all & lends itself to favoritism or undermining teams with stronger skating.

 

[Braulio]

Adjusting the Choreo elements needs to be done and the weight they have in terms of TES and GOE bonus

Sorry but teams like Fear/Gibson have raised in the standings so much in this olympic cycle based on that, getting BIG TES because of the choreo elements

This season thus far some of their choreo elements like the sliding move are not that creative or had the wow factor, hence not getting so sky high TES like they had get before and with some mixed results lower than expected

But just take a look at their 2019/2021 and watch how their high TES is based on choreo elements/GOE

 

[Dobre]

On the subject of Green & Parsons versus Hawayek & Baker, I think it's high time USFS starts putting up the teams competitive for the bronze head-to-head at a late season competition.

Not the start of the season, when it can wreck athletes' potential marks throughout the season; but late at Golden Spin, when it can provide actual information about how competitive these teams are head-to-head in an international field. And also build competitive confidence & stamina.

The number of times that the team to finish in 4th place at Nationals has had an actual crack at Hawayek & Baker in international competition during the same season over the past 4 years is something like 0. Part of this is because the team that finishes in 4th place has been constantly changing, but a lot of it is because the head-to-heads are not being scheduled when they need to be.

If the top teams can go head-to-head at the GPF, then H&B can go head-to-head with the teams on their tail as well.

 

[Karen-W]

On the subject of Green & Parsons versus Hawayek & Baker, I think it's high time USFS starts putting up the teams competitive for the bronze head-to-head at a late season competition.

Not the start of the season, when it can wreck athletes' potential marks throughout the season; but late at Golden Spin, when it can provide actual information about how competitive these teams are head-to-head in an international field. And also build competitive confidence & stamina.

The number of times that the team to finish in 4th place at Nationals has had an actual crack at Hawayek & Baker in international competition during the same season over the past 4 years is something like 0. Part of this is because the team that finishes in 4th place has been constantly changing, but a lot of it is because the head-to-heads are not being scheduled when they need to be.

If the top teams can go head-to-head at the GPF, then H&B can go head-to-head with the teams on their tail as well.

Yes. I'd be much more interested in seeing Hawayek/Baker facing off against Green/Parsons and Carreira/Ponomarenko at Golden Spin next week than seeing Cesanek/Yehorov or Bratti/Somerville. Mind, I do think Bratti/Somerville had a pretty promising international debut at Cup of Austria but there are events like Bavarian Open and Challenge Cup in January & February to which the USFS can send them to get some more international exposure before next season.

 

[Mad for Skating]

@Mad for Skating
From what I have seen you posting on Twitter and here, you don't have proof of your assertions re. Katsalapov. I remember your posts in another thread a while ago where you shared you are still a minor. Maybe not anymore now. In any event, it would be a good move to familiarise yourself with the law around defamation. In a nutshell, if you can't prove in a court of law that it is the truth, don't say it!!

I am 19 years old now.

I never said “I saw Nikita abuse his partners with my own eyes.” I gathered the allegations that I heard and presented them as just that - allegations. I’m actually quite aware of defamation laws, which is why I prefaced everything with “allegedly”.

 

[allezfred]

If he wants to help, he should help with skating skills & ice coverage since that is what most people seem to complain about.

He coached Grushina and Goncharov to an Olympic bronze medal and it wasn’t down to their skating skills and ice coverage.

 

[Dobre]

Did I say I thought Morozov would be useful? There are simply some things I dread more than others & his dire breadth of music selection is of primary concern.

I saw Grushina & Goncharov skate live only twice. The 2001 Worlds, where they were not particularly memorable and 2002 Skate America, where they were. They defeated Navka & Kostomarov and Belbin & Agosto, and I quite liked G&G there. I thought Tarasova did well by them during their transition into her camp. She & Morozov were both there. (I enjoyed Ben's turn at Elvis too).

I don't remember Navka & Kostomarov's FD from that season. (They apparently skated to The Feeling Begins so it's no wonder. For me this music was Grishuk & Platov's and I was pretty much annoyed with everyone who used it at that point in time). I see that Grushina & Goncharov used The Feeling Begins for their FD in 2006. And, I repeat, Morozov's dire knowledge of music is of primary concern. Someone please tell Svinin & Zhuk not to let him touch Stepanova & Bukin's music. Nyet.

 

[ice crystal]

I am 19 years old now.

I never said “I saw Nikita abuse his partners with my own eyes.” I gathered the allegations that I heard and presented them as just that - allegations. I’m actually quite aware of defamation laws, which is why I prefaced everything with “allegedly”.

@Mad for Skating - these are your original tweets, word-for-word, bold added for using of 'allegedly' twice. Blue are some examples of stating as a fact for what you, presumably, have no legitimate proof. Finally, it's right there for all who go straight to the TLDR...


"Nikita has allegedly been physically and emotionally abusive to two of his partners (who are also his girlfriend and ex-girlfriend, respectively). It was pretty common knowledge in the skating world a few years ago, but I rarely see people discussing it anymore.
This thread will probably be quite long because I want to provide some context for the sequence of events. Not all of these events were directly Nikita's fault, but I think his actions in response to them show a lot about his character.
Let's start at the beginning. Nikita was involved in a volatile on-again, off-again romantic relationship with his former partner Elena since they were teenagers. Nikita 1) emotionally abused Elena and 2) did not support her when their coach sexually abused her.
Elena and Nikita were coached by Nikolai M*rozov, a sexual predator who has a long history of abusing underage students. M*rozov started grooming Elena, and they started a "relationship" when he was in his 30s and Elena was still a teenager.
M*rozov started formally coaching Elena and Nikita in May of 2011 when Elena was 17, but he allegedly started grooming her when she was even younger than that. Some sources stated that she might have been as young as 14 years old.
M*rozov's relationship with Elena obviously caused tension between Elena and Nikita. But instead of acknowledging that M*rozov was grooming Elena, Nikita blamed Elena for "cheating" on him with an older man and reportedly flew into jealous rages at her.
Basically, Nikita was emotionally abusive towards Elena because he didn't like how her being sexually abused was affecting HIM. He wasn't upset that she was being abused - he was just upset that M*rozov was sleeping with HIS girlfriend.
Also, Nikita did nothing to help Elena get away from M*rozov. I do understand that Nikita was in a difficult situation because 1) M*rozov was still his coach, 2) Nikita was much younger than M*rozov, and 3) they still needed a coach, but it's still disappointing.
The media also slut-shamed Elena for her "relationship" with M*rozov. They treated her like a hoe who was sleeping with both her partner and her coach instead of a girl who was sexually abused by her coach and emotionally abused by her partner.
During the 2013-14 season, Nikita began looking for another partner without discussing it with Elena. Rumors circulated that Nikita was dumping Elena because he had started dating Victoria, and Elena found out on the day of the short dance at 2014 Worlds.
After two partners invest years into a partnership, it's common courtesy to have a conversation about terminating the partnership instead of letting your partner find out through a third party. Nikita chose not to do so.
Elena and M*rozov's relationship also ended at this time, leaving Elena alone. The media blamed her for the split and said that the partnership failed because she was too "temperamental" (even though everyone knew that Nikita was also "temperamental").
Nikita's problematic behavior continued in his partnership with Victoria. In summer of 2016, S/K left Marina Z*ueva's rink in Canton under sketchy circumstances. S/K claim that they left willingly, but it appears that they were kicked out due to Nikita's aggressive outbursts.
There was also a claim that Nikita hit Victoria during a practice at Canton. A video clip of an altercation had been leaked, then quickly taken down. I have not actually seen the clip, but several people were discussing it on the FSUniverse forum before it was deleted.
The domestic violence claim was serious enough that an interviewer asked Victoria about it in 2018. She denied it, but she seemed very uncomfortable and quickly tried to change the subject.
I don't want to make assumptions without proof, but domestic violence is rarely a one-time incident, so it's very possible that the one incident in question was not the only time that Nikita has hit someone.
Z*ueva also forced Victoria to lose weight, and Victoria went on dangerous diets in Canton. As far as I know, Nikita did not take any action to protect her. S/K only left Z*ueva bc of Nikita's behavior, not bc Z*ueva abused Victoria.
Also, I know we can't always make assumptions strictly on body language, but I've noticed that when Nikita would make mistakes, he often seemed angry at his partner rather than himself (even if his partner did not make mistakes).
This FS fandom generally does a great job when it comes to calling out abuse and refusing to support abusers, but since most of Nikita's actions occurred before 2018, a lot of newer skating fans don't know about what happened or get a watered-down explanation.
I also think Nikita’s behavior has gotten swept under the rug in the past few years as his skating improved. While he and Victoria are objectively great skaters, I feel uncomfortable when I see people gushing over them without acknowledging that he’s an abuser.
I think many people like S/K because they like Victoria, and that is valid. She’s talented, hardworking, beautiful, and fairly unproblematic. However, ignoring Nikita’s behavior just because you like Victoria is harmful to her because she is one of his victims.
My heart goes out to Victoria for being in a long-term relationship and skating partnership with the man who abused her, and I’m happy for her when she wins. But stanning S/K as a team (instead of solely stanning Victoria) is a slap in the face to abuse survivors.
Also, while P/C aren’t unproblematic and should be held accountable for their own actions, it’s hypocritical to say that you are cheering for S/K because “P/C don’t take a strong enough stance on abuse culture” when Nikita is an actual abuser.
It’s fine if you think S/K are better skaters than P/C, but you should never weaponize abuse to justify your personal preferences in a fan war, ESPECIALLY when your fave has a history of abusing people. You don’t get to pick and choose when you support survivors.
I’ve also noticed that Nikita gets treated much more favorably than other problematic people in the sport. Wishing for problematic skaters to flop is pretty common on Twitter, but I haven’t seen multitudes of people on my timeline wishing for him to flop since 2019.
I also think Nikita gets away with his behavior partly because he is a conventionally attractive cishet white man. I don’t believe in comparing abuse because all abuse is wrong, but I’ve noticed that non-white or LGBTQ+ skaters get more scrutiny for similar actions.
I’m also aware that there haven’t been any new complaints about Nikita’s behavior in the past few years, and it’s possible that he hasn’t been causing trouble lately. But if we don’t hold him accountable for past abuse, we are invalidating his survivors’ experiences.
TLDR: Nikita K*tsalapov has emotionally and physically abused his partners and he is not someone we should stan."

 

[litenkyckling]

Can we PLEASE move this discussion to a different thread. It is getting so far off topic - and it's also getting incredibly personal and unkind towards others.

 

[VGThuy]

Can we PLEASE move this discussion to a different thread. It is getting so far off topic - and it's also getting incredibly personal and unkind towards others.

I’m all for moving the topic to another thread but I don’t see where it’s been personal and unkind, honestly. In fact, people are asking some serious questions for their own clarification,and it’s all nothing compared to what an investigator or Nikita’s attorney would ask someone making those kinds of allegations with editorializing.

Honestly, this is all good practice for anyone who wants to be an advocate for victims because they need to withstand the scrutiny and be much more conscientious about what they say and post and make sure they don’t veer towards making false statements or substituting their own opinions as facts or presenting them as facts without explicitly stating they are now stating their own opinions or conclusions. Taking on that role comes with certain responsibilities and you need to learn to communicate in a way that won’t get the message distorted or undermine the victim’s credibility.

 

[mjb52]

It's also a reminder that it's important to be careful and conscientious when saying things that affect another person's reputation. For example, simply taking the time to double-check the original thread first would have avoided the creation of this new seemingly totally false detail about a nonexistent video.