The Dance Hall 9: Bring the Bling or No Beijing 2021-2022

[Spun Silver]

I was hoping for something shorter but thank you! Maybe during the long winter nights I will take a gander at this. There's at least two months 'til Beijing so that's plenty of time.

Maybe this site can help. https://www.ice-dance.com/site/

 

[MarieM]

Morozov can maybe package Step&Bukin better. She can't skate, but he knows how to deal with that.

 

[VGThuy]

Morozov can maybe package Step&Bukin better. She can't skate, but he knows how to deal with that.

By starting a relationship with her?

 

[Mad for Skating]

Hi everyone. I noticed that people were discussing my Twitter thread about the allegations surrounding Katsalapov, and I wanted to briefly address the issue and make a few clarifications.

I received this information from 1) an advocate for sexual assault survivors in sports (who gave me permission to share the information) and 2) the video of the incident between Sinitsina/Katsalapov in Canton and the discussions about it on FSUniverse.

Here are my sources for the information in the thread:

1. Elena Ilinykh and Nikita Katsalapov confirmed their romantic relationship by posting "couple photos" throughout their partnership.
2. Nikolai Morozov confirmed that he was in a relationship with Elena by posting "couple photos" in September 2012. At the time, she was 18 and he was 36, and he was in a position of power over her because he was her coach. However, the aforementioned advocate said that they were involved several years before they went public with their relationship, and I've seen multiple people on both FSUniverse and Russian forums confirm this to be true. Some of their photos are in this Tumblr post: https://apurplecheshirecat.tumblr.com/post/32465967450/i-dont-even-know-what-to-say

3. The advocate also shared that Nikita verbally raged at Elena over the Morozov situation because he was jealous. I don't have a second source to cross-reference, but I do know that Elena and Nikita have both alluded that their relationship was volatile - almost every public figure in skating has referenced their clashing tempers, and they had a very messy split in 2014.

4. During Ilinykh/Katsalapov's split, Elena took most of the blame, even though Nikita was the one who initiated the split. If you scroll back through the old forum threads on here or on Russian forums, you'll see plenty of people blaming Elena. (Most of her haters slut-shamed her for dating Morozov, even though the blame should've been on Morozov for preying on a teenage girl).

5. Elena said that Nikita chose to end the partnership at 2014 Worlds. There was a lot of drama at the time because the press announced that they would be splitting before Nikita told Elena that he wanted to end the partnership.

Фигуристка Ильиных: инициатором распада пары с Кацалаповым был партнер

Российская фигуристка Елена Ильиных сообщила агентству "Р-Спорт", что инициатором распада ее танцевальной пары с Никитой Кацалаповым был партнер, сообщивший ей на прошлой неделе о прекращении сотрудничества.

rsport.ria.ru

6. Victoria and Nikita left Zoueva's training base in Canton suddenly in the summer of 2016. Victoria claimed in an interview that they left willingly, but on FSUniverse, people had been posting that a short video clip of an altercation between Victoria and Nikita had been posted online, then deleted quickly. If you go back to the threads from that time (I believe it would be in the From Russia with Love Summer 2016 thread), you can find the discussions. They also said that the police had been called to the rink and that Victoria and Nikita were kicked out of the rink after the incident. The athlete advocate also told me that all of these details were true.

7. Victoria addressed the altercation in an interview, which I linked in the Twitter thread. When asked about why she and Nikita suddenly left Canton, she suddenly responded, "I don't want to talk about it." When the interviewer kept pushing for details and asked if Nikita had hit her, Victoria quickly denied it and changed the subject. However, when there was literally a video clip of the incident posted online, I find it difficult to believe that it didn't happen when several people saw it with their own eyes.

8. Victoria openly spoke about her eating disorder in the same interview.

That’s a lot of serious allegations. How much of this is true? And I don’t see how Nikita should get the blame for Elena and Morozov’s inappropriate relationship. He was a kid himself.

My god that person continuously says they don't want to make assumptions in one breath and then goes on to make assumptions.
Are people that threatened by S/K this season that this is what they are resorting to, for instance it's Nikita's fault Elena was with Morozov. Does that make Victor Kraatz abusive as well? Or every other male that skated with a female that mad seduced?

I included the information about Elena and Morozov's inappropriate relationship to provide greater context on the overall dynamics between Elena, Nikita, and Morozov. It's not Nikita's fault that Morozov is a predator, and I clarified this in the Twitter thread. I also know that Nikita was still a teenager when Morozov started grooming Elena, and since Nikita was still Morozov's student, it would have been very difficult to confront Morozov.

However, Nikita IS responsible for his own reaction to the situation. Put yourself in Elena's shoes. A 30+ year old serial predator got her into a volatile relationship with an obvious power imbalance. That would obviously cause emotional problems for a teenage girl. And instead of offering emotional support, Nikita just raged at her because he was jealous of Morozov. I don't blame Nikita for not fully understanding abuse culture as a teenage boy, but his own behavior was out of line. It's never okay to rage at your girlfriend, but it's even worse when you're raging at her because you blame her for getting sexually abused. Even if Nikita didn't quite understand how messed up the situation was, he had no right to treat her so cruelly.

I'm not saying Elena was a saint, but I think many people dismissed her trauma because they thought she was just a "drama queen".

These rumours have been around for years, and come from many sources. They don't come from nowhere. I think in these instances, you should always support the victim. Often with DV and SA there isn't the same "proof" that different crimes demand.

I completely agree. Unfortunately, DV and SA tend to get swept under the rug much too often because even when there is proof, many people try to downplay it or blame the victims. In addition, these attitudes make survivors less likely to come forward because they are afraid of being attacked for speaking out.

I generally agree but there's a level of interpretation and assumptions in that thread that go way beyond the reasonable. It feels less of a case of supporting those who were abused and much more a case of "woke" fs twitter not liking certain skaters and instead of presenting what is known or even strongly rumored, they also work hard to villainize certain skaters.
What's really bad is to see the numerous comments from people who never heard about the rumors and now accept them as the undeniable truth.

I'm not the one who's villainizing Nikita. He has villainized himself by being an abusive jerk.

I specifically mentioned in my Twitter thread that I do not believe in weaponizing abuse for fan wars. Sinitsina/Katsalapov are beautiful skaters, and I don't have a personal vendetta against them as athletes. These allegations existed years before I posted my thread, so it's not like I just made them up because I wanted people to dislike Nikita.

However, fans have the right to know that these allegations exist. You can choose to believe or disbelieve them, but I personally choose to support the victim unless it can be proven that the victim lied. I know that this may seem harsh, but studies have shown that false abuse allegations are far less likely than true ones.

This is OT but nowadays the word "problematic" is used in a way to encompass "everything I don't like". Being an abuser = problematic. Liking a stupid comment on Twitter = problematic. It actually trivializes the "problem" itself.

I actually agree with this statement. I think everyone has a different definition of "problematic", and it makes it difficult to discuss issues because not all problematic actions are equal. And I don't like that "problematic" has become a euphemism for more direct words like racist, abusive, misogynistic, homophobic, etc.

I called P/C problematic because 1) Guillaume posted that he did not support vaccine passports and 2) both Gabriella and Guillaume have claimed to support abuse survivors, but they chose to stay friends with Vanessa James despite her involvement in the Cipres situation (and Guillaume even choreographed programs for Vanessa). I'm still a big fan of P/C, and I don't believe they should be "canceled", but I think it's fair to call them out because these actions are harmful, even if they seem insignificant in comparison to Nikita's abuse allegations. The punishment for driving 10 mph over the speed limit shouldn't be as severe as the punishment for murder, but it's still fair to give out speeding tickets because speeding can cause accidents.

In my thread, I was actually trying to point out the discrepancy between P/C's actions and Nikita's and the hypocrisy of skating fans who support S/K because they think P/C are too problematic. I should have used clearer wording to emphasize this discrepancy, but my main point was about how the FS fandom seems to give Nikita a free pass in comparison to other skaters.

 

[muffinplus]

3. The advocate also shared that Nikita verbally raged at Elena over the Morozov situation because he was jealous. I don't have a second source to cross-reference, but I do know that Elena and Nikita have both alluded that their relationship was volatile - almost every public figure in skating has referenced their clashing tempers, and they had a very messy split in 2014.

6. Victoria and Nikita left Zoueva's training base in Canton suddenly in the summer of 2016. Victoria claimed in an interview that they left willingly, but on FSUniverse, people had been posting that a short video clip of an altercation between Victoria and Nikita had been posted online, then deleted quickly. If you go back to the threads from that time (I believe it would be in the From Russia with Love Summer 2016 thread), you can find the discussions. They also said that the police had been called to the rink and that Victoria and Nikita were kicked out of the rink after the incident. The athlete advocate also told me that all of these details were true.

So who is this advocate? Are we supposed to believe that just because someone is calling themselves an advocate, they are a first-hand reliable source of information?

7. Victoria addressed the altercation in an interview, which I linked in the Twitter thread. When asked about why she and Nikita suddenly left Canton, she suddenly responded, "I don't want to talk about it." When the interviewer kept pushing for details and asked if Nikita had hit her, Victoria quickly denied it and changed the subject. However, when there was literally a video clip of the incident posted online, I find it difficult to believe that it didn't happen when several people saw it with their own eyes.

8. Victoria openly spoke about her eating disorder in the same interview.

Not wanting to talk about it doesn’t prove anything? “There was literally a video”…. Well where is it now? And also TBH I don’t think you can know what is going on from a video. And “Several people saw it with their own eyes” and “I find it difficult to believe” is not factual.

I have no idea what her eating disorder has to do with Nikita? Also, raging at Elena (if true) makes him a jerk not an abuser.

I'm not the one who's villainizing Nikita. He has villainized himself by being an abusive jerk.

So basically you are going around calling someone an abuser as factual (while at the same saying the thing saying everything is “alleged”) with no real sources that you have actually published. In what world do you think it’s appropriate? Oh I forgot, on Skating Twitter.

 

[mjb52]

Obviously none of us knows anything about this situation personally. I've looked into this rumor really extensively because I try to be very careful about my choices in who to support and from what I've seen it has always seemed like a snake eating its own tail and unreliable, but obviously I can never assert with any kind of certainty that something didn't happen, no one can. I know you are a kind and well-intentioned person. But you are also basically repeating info passed on to you by an anonymous person who also presumably has it second-hand and combining it with a hodgepodge of mashed together discussion on fsu of what I guess was a rumor started by a single hastily-deleted tweet. No one in any thread that I've seen has ever said anything about a video. I think you might be confusing this with mention of the video of K's shoulder surgery that was being discussed right before the rumor from the tweet was brought up, apparently because it was being discussed on some random Russian figure skating board. This rumor was referred to in the initial discussion on FSU as coming from a "highly questionable source." 99% of the rest of what you're referencing is speculation about the personal lives of teenagers in an ugly situation nearly a decade ago.

I also don't understand why this person has solicited you to post about it? Why not just post themselves if they are the one who is familiar with the situation?

Obviously the way we react to this would be very different if these allegations were coming from a person directly involved in the situation. That would then raise other questions that have been brought up by other posters in the context of this rumor, about how we deal with a situation where a person may have done something and reformed and so forth since all of this has always dated back to the same single now five year old rumor. It would also be highly dependent on what the person directly involved in the situation themselves felt and wished for in the way of support. But for the moment, you are spreading a very questionable rumor as though it is fact to people who don't know how questionable it is. I wonder if you have truly thought about what a serious act that is, if this rumor is - as I certainly hope - false?

 

[Cherub721]

I have been reading FSU for years and this is the first I have ever heard about a "video that was quickly deleted" being posted.

 

[Baby Yoda On Skates]

By starting a relationship with her?

I thought Morozov was still involved with Ksenia Stolbova. Or is that over and he's ready to move on with Stepanova?

 

[caseyedwards]

I have been reading FSU for years and this is the first I have ever heard about a "video that was quickly deleted" being posted.

It is totally false and more effort to destroy s/k from extreme Russia haters.

 

[angi]

I have been reading FSU for years and this is the first I have ever heard about a "video that was quickly deleted" being posted.

This basically sums up the issues most of us have - @Mad for Skating have you seen that video with your own eyes or were you told there is a video that was quickly deleted?
As others wrote, I don't doubt you are well-intentioned, but you are basing your entire description of what happened on an anonymous source that is supposedly an advocate and while you might be comfortable with taking their account of things as the undeniable truth, the rest of us who have no idea who that person is (even someone with an anonymous persona can prove themselves to be a reliable source but we have no indication about any of it) are more reluctant to just accept everything as it is written, also because your thread wasn't just sharing what is supposedly known, it was also sharing assumptions, interpretations, and an editorialized version of those supposed facts. And I'm sorry, but linking to someone's Tumblr post as proof that something is a well-known fact is not exactly the right way to go when people ask for sources.
This entire discussion saddens me because I truly support abuse survivors and I always believe survivors who come forward because I know the statistic about false claims and such and I never doubt them, so for me to think I might be somehow defending an abuser is a very uncomfortable feeling. And I think it's the same for many others who commented in this thread that in my time here as always shown support for abuse survivors when allegations are made. So if so many of us felt uncomfortable with the way your thread was built, I urge you to consider that perhaps we do have a point and perhaps there is a better way to acknowledge the rumors without sensationalizing them and mixing them with assumptions.

 

[litenkyckling]

It is totally false and more effort to destroy s/k from extreme Russia haters.

Plenty of people have seen the evidence, else the rumour would have been quashed years ago - this is nothing to with "Russia haters".

It actually makes me a bit sick that people are making this about xenophobia - which it isn't - and just giving no support to SA and DV survivors in this sport. The entire narrative around SA and DV is an embedded culture of not believing and demanding proof which is why people don't feel that they can come forward.

 

[Viscaro]

Thank you @Mad for Skating for explaining thoroughly and calmly your thread after seeing it commented here, and I am sorry if you got vitriol for me or others that was more directed to twitter fan wars than your thread in particular. The allegations that you put against Katsalapov do not convince me, but it's true that these rumors have been going around for a while now and they do influence the way I see Katsalapov.

I am deeply troubled by the possibility of Morozov dating minors. The photos on the Tumblr are ambiguous, but if it were the only proof I wouldn't be convinced - yet everyone here seems to believe it's a fact he not only dated Elena, but also other (minors) students. I wondered why everyone was sure of so I went on a quick google search before hitting send on this message and actually it's in his wikipedia page and he even married a 18 yo student, Vasilisa Davankova (they got divorced and she became a vlogger with 1Mo followers, good for you girl). What. the. heck.

On other news I am very sad about the GPF final cancellation, I hope it does not derail the athletes preparations for the Olympics. I hope nobody gets injured and that PC win gold, of course

 

[mjb52]

There is a significant difference between supporting a person who is speaking for themselves - which anyone here would do - and treating a rumor based on dubious sources in the first place that has grown more and more sensationalistic over time as fact. Those aren't the same things.

 

[angi]

Plenty of people have seen the evidence, else the rumour would have been quashed years ago

That's not how social media work, I can give you plenty of examples I came across in other skating fandoms that became what they love to call "canon" simply because the most popular people in those fandoms kept spreading them for years without ever supplying even a shred of evidence or a reliable source.

 

[Mad for Skating]

I think you might be confusing this with mention of the video of K's shoulder surgery that was being discussed right before the rumor from the tweet was brought up, apparently because it was being discussed on some random Russian figure skating board.

I don't recall seeing a video of a shoulder surgery. I only remember scrolling through a long forum thread on FSU where people were discussing the alleged incident.

I also don't understand why this person has solicited you to post about it? Why not just post themselves if they are the one who is familiar with the situation?

The person didn't solicit me to post about it. She shared the information with me in confidence (although I had already heard many of the allegations), and I asked her permission to post it publicly. It was my idea to share the information, not hers.

I have been reading FSU for years and this is the first I have ever heard about a "video that was quickly deleted" being posted.

This basically sums up the issues most of us have - @Mad for Skating have you seen that video with your own eyes or were you told there is a video that was quickly deleted?

I did not see the video with my own eyes, but I did see people discussing it on this forum when it first happened. If I remember correctly, someone had posted the link to the video, but by the time I tried to view it, the link had been broken because the video was deleted. I distinctly remember several pages of discussion about it - I'm pretty sure it was in the From Russia with Love thread from Summer 2016.

This entire discussion saddens me because I truly support abuse survivors and I always believe survivors who come forward because I know the statistic about false claims and such and I never doubt them, so for me to think I might be somehow defending an abuser is a very uncomfortable feeling. And I think it's the same for many others who commented in this thread that in my time here as always shown support for abuse survivors when allegations are made. So if so many of us felt uncomfortable with the way your thread was built, I urge you to consider that perhaps we do have a point and perhaps there is a better way to acknowledge the rumors without sensationalizing them and mixing them with assumptions.

I know that these allegations are difficult to prove, and I do understand why people might be hesitant to believe them without more comprehensive proof. Unfortunately, many DV and SA cases don't come with a lot of concrete evidence, so this is all that I know so far. I also did not intend to sensationalize anything - abuse is a very grave matter, and my first priority is to support survivors. I apologize if my message was poorly conveyed, but I think it's fair to acknowledge that these allegations exist.

 

[mjb52]

I think you are mistaken. There was a poster who said she was trying to post a link to whatever the tweet was about the rumor, not a video. However, the link was broken.

I just went back and looked. The person said "Just saw something on twitter.stated as a rumour..." which is a detail I had forgotten, that even the original tweet apparently called it a rumor. The poster then tried to post a link to a tinypic saying that she was trying to post a link to the tweet but the link didn't work.

6-7 posts earlier, a different poster had put up a link to a video of K's surgery. It seems to me that perhaps you have combined these two things in your mind?

It's a little confusing to even nail down the original source of this rumor, whether it is the tweet or the tweet repeating something from somewhere else. It's always seemed sort of like a game of telephone to me.

 

[VGThuy]

I think what confuses matters for some people is that they want to take abuse victims seriously and/or believe them right away, but we actually haven't heard from the mouths of Vika and Elena of Nikita's abuse, at least the specific abuse at Canton. There are other things you wrote that has been established by documentation and published material, and those things I think we can believe without debating over it. Just be careful with over-zealous editorializing and conflating established documented evidence with second-hand or third-hand testimony because they don't have the same level of credibility.

As for being a poster who closely followed that original thread on FSU regarding Nikita, Viktoria, and the Canton incident, this is the first I've heard of a video as well. I think had there been a video that people saw and was shared publicly here, someone would have saved it and more people would have been sure about the Canton incident. There was a video of Nikita getting shoulder surgery and doing some advertisement for the hospital in, I want to say Nebraska or Kansas.

I will say that I do believe the incident in Canton happened because as someone who was following the incident at the time, there were a lot of people who had been pretty reliable before or those who had ties to Canton talking about the incident and verifying it. I never gave Nikita a pass for that. However, when I talk about S/K now, since Vika is still competing with him, I try to keep it about the skating because that's the only thing that's relevant when I talk about S/K these days. I don't really talk about their personal life.

That all said, I don't blame people who were not on the board or following the thread minute-by-minute at the time (or maybe who were but have a different take than I do) for not so easily believing the situation. Yes, DV and abuse are underreported, it's a complicated situation, and victims have always been dealt a horrible hand in terms of treatment and whether people believe them. But I also think this goes back to hearing it straight from the victim or from someone who observed the situation, or someone willing to come forward, identify themselves, and state what they were told directly and by whom. .

 

[barbarafan]

Hi everyone. I noticed that people were discussing my Twitter thread about the allegations surrounding Katsalapov, and I wanted to briefly address the issue and make a few clarifications.

I received this information from 1) an advocate for sexual assault survivors in sports (who gave me permission to share the information) and 2) the video of the incident between Sinitsina/Katsalapov in Canton and the discussions about it on FSUniverse.

Here are my sources for the information in the thread:

1. Elena Ilinykh and Nikita Katsalapov confirmed their romantic relationship by posting "couple photos" throughout their partnership.
2. Nikolai Morozov confirmed that he was in a relationship with Elena by posting "couple photos" in September 2012. At the time, she was 18 and he was 36, and he was in a position of power over her because he was her coach. However, the aforementioned advocate said that they were involved several years before they went public with their relationship, and I've seen multiple people on both FSUniverse and Russian forums confirm this to be true. Some of their photos are in this Tumblr post: https://apurplecheshirecat.tumblr.com/post/32465967450/i-dont-even-know-what-to-say

3. The advocate also shared that Nikita verbally raged at Elena over the Morozov situation because he was jealous. I don't have a second source to cross-reference, but I do know that Elena and Nikita have both alluded that their relationship was volatile - almost every public figure in skating has referenced their clashing tempers, and they had a very messy split in 2014.

4. During Ilinykh/Katsalapov's split, Elena took most of the blame, even though Nikita was the one who initiated the split. If you scroll back through the old forum threads on here or on Russian forums, you'll see plenty of people blaming Elena. (Most of her haters slut-shamed her for dating Morozov, even though the blame should've been on Morozov for preying on a teenage girl).

5. Elena said that Nikita chose to end the partnership at 2014 Worlds. There was a lot of drama at the time because the press announced that they would be splitting before Nikita told Elena that he wanted to end the partnership.

Фигуристка Ильиных: инициатором распада пары с Кацалаповым был партнер

Российская фигуристка Елена Ильиных сообщила агентству "Р-Спорт", что инициатором распада ее танцевальной пары с Никитой Кацалаповым был партнер, сообщивший ей на прошлой неделе о прекращении сотрудничества.

rsport.ria.ru

6. Victoria and Nikita left Zoueva's training base in Canton suddenly in the summer of 2016. Victoria claimed in an interview that they left willingly, but on FSUniverse, people had been posting that a short video clip of an altercation between Victoria and Nikita had been posted online, then deleted quickly. If you go back to the threads from that time (I believe it would be in the From Russia with Love Summer 2016 thread), you can find the discussions. They also said that the police had been called to the rink and that Victoria and Nikita were kicked out of the rink after the incident. The athlete advocate also told me that all of these details were true.

7. Victoria addressed the altercation in an interview, which I linked in the Twitter thread. When asked about why she and Nikita suddenly left Canton, she suddenly responded, "I don't want to talk about it." When the interviewer kept pushing for details and asked if Nikita had hit her, Victoria quickly denied it and changed the subject. However, when there was literally a video clip of the incident posted online, I find it difficult to believe that it didn't happen when several people saw it with their own eyes.

8. Victoria openly spoke about her eating disorder in the same interview.




I included the information about Elena and Morozov's inappropriate relationship to provide greater context on the overall dynamics between Elena, Nikita, and Morozov. It's not Nikita's fault that Morozov is a predator, and I clarified this in the Twitter thread. I also know that Nikita was still a teenager when Morozov started grooming Elena, and since Nikita was still Morozov's student, it would have been very difficult to confront Morozov.

However, Nikita IS responsible for his own reaction to the situation. Put yourself in Elena's shoes. A 30+ year old serial predator got her into a volatile relationship with an obvious power imbalance. That would obviously cause emotional problems for a teenage girl. And instead of offering emotional support, Nikita just raged at her because he was jealous of Morozov. I don't blame Nikita for not fully understanding abuse culture as a teenage boy, but his own behavior was out of line. It's never okay to rage at your girlfriend, but it's even worse when you're raging at her because you blame her for getting sexually abused. Even if Nikita didn't quite understand how messed up the situation was, he had no right to treat her so cruelly.

I'm not saying Elena was a saint, but I think many people dismissed her trauma because they thought she was just a "drama queen".



I completely agree. Unfortunately, DV and SA tend to get swept under the rug much too often because even when there is proof, many people try to downplay it or blame the victims. In addition, these attitudes make survivors less likely to come forward because they are afraid of being attacked for speaking out.



I'm not the one who's villainizing Nikita. He has villainized himself by being an abusive jerk.

I specifically mentioned in my Twitter thread that I do not believe in weaponizing abuse for fan wars. Sinitsina/Katsalapov are beautiful skaters, and I don't have a personal vendetta against them as athletes. These allegations existed years before I posted my thread, so it's not like I just made them up because I wanted people to dislike Nikita.

However, fans have the right to know that these allegations exist. You can choose to believe or disbelieve them, but I personally choose to support the victim unless it can be proven that the victim lied. I know that this may seem harsh, but studies have shown that false abuse allegations are far less likely than true ones.



I actually agree with this statement. I think everyone has a different definition of "problematic", and it makes it difficult to discuss issues because not all problematic actions are equal. And I don't like that "problematic" has become a euphemism for more direct words like racist, abusive, misogynistic, homophobic, etc.

I called P/C problematic because 1) Guillaume posted that he did not support vaccine passports and 2) both Gabriella and Guillaume have claimed to support abuse survivors, but they chose to stay friends with Vanessa James despite her involvement in the Cipres situation (and Guillaume even choreographed programs for Vanessa). I'm still a big fan of P/C, and I don't believe they should be "canceled", but I think it's fair to call them out because these actions are harmful, even if they seem insignificant in comparison to Nikita's abuse allegations. The punishment for driving 10 mph over the speed limit shouldn't be as severe as the punishment for murder, but it's still fair to give out speeding tickets because speeding can cause accidents.

In my thread, I was actually trying to point out the discrepancy between P/C's actions and Nikita's and the hypocrisy of skating fans who support S/K because they think P/C are too problematic. I should have used clearer wording to emphasize this discrepancy, but my main point was about how the FS fandom seems to give Nikita a free pass in comparison to other skaters.

Thank-you for dealing with the facts clinically. I was very tired after a new illness and did not comment as I also was in a great deal of pain at the time the slapping around of Victoria by Nik at Canton so was a bit fuzzy at that time. I did not have a lot of places to find figure skating info but found mad for skating on twitter helpful so I had popped on for news to see the whole story unfold tweet by tweet. You said your source was extremely reliable and was there in the arena giving you a blow by blow description of the events and saying it was ok to publish (my words) PPL were tweeting about it as it went on including the police visit. In my memory it was owners or mgr's of the rink who called the police. A quick deal was reached with rink owners & team that if they disappeared immediately no charges would be made and the incident would be buried. A short time after that all the messages went poof and a few days later S/K were on a plane to Russia. I saw somewhere else that they returned shortly after to close off and gather up stuff and that was it. Marina was very unhappy & wanted to continue coaching them but really Russia was kinda far and this was before zoom was around or being utilized for training. Later on I read about the Shiboutani's parents being owners or part owners of Canton but do not know if they were there at the time and I hoped there were not a lot of kids at the arena. I cannot remember where I read this but I did not have access to many FS sources.

 

[mjb52]

Yes @barbarafan you are the person I was mentioning who posted about having just seen something on twitter stated as a rumor, and who is also responsible for some of the more sensationalistic aspects of this rumor. The thing is that what you are saying doesn't really make sense, unless I am misunderstanding you, since they were already back in Russia at the time this tweet you had "just" seen would have been about something supposedly happening in real time in Canton, according to what you've said above. Additionally, not to be indelicate, but you have significantly misremembered information on this board about another topic before.

I'm still mildly confused about whether an original tweet about this ever even existed. The only person I ever personally saw mention seeing it was you. It seems from something another poster said earlier in the thread that it may have though. But that adds to the whole game of telephone feel to this rumor, just people repeating things they half remember seeing someone else maybe having said.

 

[irenemulindwairen]

By starting a relationship with her?

Really Morozov, must you date every young female athlete you coach?

 

[VGThuy]

I thought Morozov was still involved with Ksenia Stolbova. Or is that over and he's ready to move on with Stepanova?

Really Morozov, must you date every young female athlete you coach?

Just to be clear, I was joking when I wrote that. A joke in poor taste, I'm sure, but a joke nonetheless.

 

[mjb52]

To bring this back to ice dance, I wonder if anyone has any suggestions for how to make the discipline less subjective. It seems to me that it where the difficulties with the discipline lie, in attracting an audience and in terms of the fans' feeling that they don't trust the results. The twizzles were one attempt to do that. So presumably was the entire new judging system in general. But it doesn't seem to have worked. Can anything do that? Or is it just part of the nature of the sport that without jumps (not that that makes results in singles/pairs 100% uncontroversial to say the least) ice dance results will always be the most difficult to gain consensus on? It seems like people complain when the results don't change over time, but then when they do change, with a team moving up, that causes a lot of angst too. So is the whole thing just a lost cause or is there some way to make it a little more concrete?

 

[VGThuy]

The problem is that it seems the only way to make ice dance more fair and competitive amongst teams may also make it less performative, artistic, and entertaining...like singles.

Is competitive ballroom dancing any fairer? Or any dance competition?

 

[irenemulindwairen]

Just to be clear, I was joking when I wrote that. A joke in poor taste, I'm sure, but a joke nonetheless.

OK. Joke taken.?????

 

[mjb52]

The problem is that it seems the only way to make ice dance more fair and competitive amongst teams may also make it less performative, artistic, and entertaining...like singles.

Is competitive ballroom dancing any fairer? Or any dance competition?

I definitely preferred ice dance under 6.0 in terms of the heights that I thought teams could reach at their very very best. At the same time, it's easy to forget all the rules I used to complain about, especially with music. I think the quality is much higher now overall, and there is a lot more freedom, I just felt - and obviously this is hugely subjective too - that under 6.0 there were more programs that truly transcended the sport. I'm curious about how the Duchesneys' Missing I & II programs are viewed now. Those are two of my all-time favorites, but how were they technically vs. artistically?

 

[litenkyckling]

To bring this back to ice dance, I wonder if anyone has any suggestions for how to make the discipline less subjective. It seems to me that it where the difficulties with the discipline lie, in attracting an audience and in terms of the fans' feeling that they don't trust the results. The twizzles were one attempt to do that. So presumably was the entire new judging system in general. But it doesn't seem to have worked. Can anything do that? Or is it just part of the nature of the sport that without jumps (not that that makes results in singles/pairs 100% uncontroversial to say the least) ice dance results will always be the most difficult to gain consensus on? It seems like people complain when the results don't change over time, but then when they do change, with a team moving up, that causes a lot of angst too. So is the whole thing just a lost cause or is there some way to make it a little more concrete?

I actually posted my thoughts on this recently on GS so I'm just going to repost those here as I feel quite passionately about this! I'm not sure if it would make it totally less subjective, but I think they would push the sport more technically, which I think it's lacking a little of at the minute.

• Bigger points differences between levels. Teams need to be incentivised to actually hit their levels, because just now I totally get why they focus more on getting high GOE over a level 4 step sequence. We have yet to see a single L4 step sequence this season, which is frankly ridiculous considering the talent.
• Factored GOE. You should not be able to get +5 for an element that isn't a level 4 because that literally makes no sense and increases the likelihood of corrupt and unfair judging.
• Less choreo elements. I don't hate these, but the weight they have makes no sense. Plus, GOE is handed out here and often lower ranked teams have really creative elements and get little reward, yet higher ranked teams do easy and boring choreo elements and get +5?? These definitely need properly factored GOE. Allow 2 in a FD as a maximum.
• Bring back the 2nd step sequence. If they love the one foot so much, add it into the RD. I would also like more difficult turns and a requirement for proper dance holds and no open skating allowed in at least one of the step sequences. Holding hands and skating is not a real hold guys.
• No repeat lifts across programmes. If you've used it in the RD you can't have in the FD. Lifts are scored too easily as it is, in my opinion.
• Maybe restructure the RD. I don't hate it, don't love it either. Kind of hate the themes as the ISU's idea of a theme is rubbish. I personally prefer entire pattern dances, but I kind of get why they don't use them now. I think I'd basically just make the RD a little more like the OD content wise, the 5 elements just now feel a bit cut and paste from year to year. Oh and make the No Touch step sequence a true no touch one again.

And across disciplines

• A new computer system in place where you have to press buttons for each reason why a PCS/GOE point should be given. (In fairness, this may be how it already works but I'm not sure). Like the list of reasons why someone deserves a +5 that the ISU provide in document form on their website, but on a screen and judges MUST justify every point they give. The computer system will caculate the GOE/PCS on the reasons that the judges have selected. So, they wouldn't be able to just keep pressing +5 without even looking up at the skating happening in front of them. At every competition and in every discipline, one judge at random will be chosen at the end and they must go through their scoring sheet and explain why they did what they did, like an audit I suppose.

 

[Bigbird]

I actually posted my thoughts on this recently on GS so I'm just going to repost those here as I feel quite passionately about this! I'm not sure if it would make it totally less subjective, but I think they would push the sport more technically, which I think it's lacking a little of at the minute.

• Bigger points differences between levels. Teams need to be incentivised to actually hit their levels, because just now I totally get why they focus more on getting high GOE over a level 4 step sequence. We have yet to see a single L4 step sequence this season, which is frankly ridiculous considering the talent.
• Factored GOE. You should not be able to get +5 for an element that isn't a level 4 because that literally makes no sense and increases the likelihood of corrupt and unfair judging.
• Less choreo elements. I don't hate these, but the weight they have makes no sense. Plus, GOE is handed out here and often lower ranked teams have really creative elements and get little reward, yet higher ranked teams do easy and boring choreo elements and get +5?? These definitely need properly factored GOE. Allow 2 in a FD as a maximum.
• Bring back the 2nd step sequence. If they love the one foot so much, add it into the RD. I would also like more difficult turns and a requirement for proper dance holds and no open skating allowed in at least one of the step sequences. Holding hands and skating is not a real hold guys.
• No repeat lifts across programmes. If you've used it in the RD you can't have in the FD. Lifts are scored too easily as it is, in my opinion.
• Maybe restructure the RD. I don't hate it, don't love it either. Kind of hate the themes as the ISU's idea of a theme is rubbish. I personally prefer entire pattern dances, but I kind of get why they don't use them now. I think I'd basically just make the RD a little more like the OD content wise, the 5 elements just now feel a bit cut and paste from year to year. Oh and make the No Touch step sequence a true no touch one again.

And across disciplines

• A new computer system in place where you have to press buttons for each reason why a PCS/GOE point should be given. (In fairness, this may be how it already works but I'm not sure). Like the list of reasons why someone deserves a +5 that the ISU provide in document form on their website, but on a screen and judges MUST justify every point they give. The computer system will caculate the GOE/PCS on the reasons that the judges have selected. So, they wouldn't be able to just keep pressing +5 without even looking up at the skating happening in front of them. At every competition and in every discipline, one judge at random will be chosen at the end and they must go through their scoring sheet and explain why they did what they did, like an audit I suppose.

These are good points. I really like the factored GOE.

 

[VGThuy]

I actually think a level 1-3 getting a +5 makes sense in theory if a competitor is doing a skill in that level on purpose. In ice dance, we know that a team received a level 2 or 3 because they made a mistake, so getting a +5 makes no real sense there. Furthermore, I do think the GOEs are factored already as a +5 for a level 4 is worth more in actual points than a +5 for a level 3 and so on or so forth, but your idea of limiting what can qualify for a +4-5 is intriguing.

Also, can the Ice Dance tech committee create a new full-fledged step sequence (as a companion to the actual step sequence requiring like 11 "difficult" steps/turns that makes all the step sequences look the same there) in the FD that is not just made up of "difficult turns/steps" but can include fast paced steps that still reward difficulty of such steps and moves and not just be a level 1 character/choreo step sequence? Like not only will the Tech panel determine levels by searching the steps for difficulty, but also judging difficulty based on intricacy, holds, changes of body positions, dance moves, flexibility, etc.? What do actual ice dance tech experts on the forum think about that? Does that make sense at all? I remember watching some of the OSPs in the 1980s and loving how fast and quick and intricate a lot of their steps are.

The rhythm dances need an overhaul and I miss strict adherences to rhythm and character.

 

[litenkyckling]

I actually think a level 1-3 getting a +5 makes sense in theory if a competitor is doing a skill in that level on purpose. In ice dance, we know that a team received a level 2 or 3 because they made a mistake, so getting a +5 makes no real sense there. Furthermore, I do think the GOEs are factored already as a +5 for a level 4 is worth more in actual points than a +5 for a level 3 and so on or so forth, but your idea of limiting what can qualify for a +4-5 is intriguing.

At the minute it isn't (I'm just going on the goe/level charts that they publish every season - I think they offically call it the Scale of Values?) - so for example you could do a L2 step sequence and get +5 which would be 6.95+4.84 but if you got a L4 sequence with +5 you would get 8.45+4.84. So yes, the technical base is higher but the GOE isn't just now

 

[mjb52]

wow these are great well-thought out suggestions that also involve a lot of math maybe I'll get some caffeine and come back to it