The Dance Hall 8: Join the Maskerade 2020-2021

Must be a hard pill for all those patriotic American ice dance fans that there would be no American ice dance programme without the Soviet Union and communism. :saint:
There used to be and they used to get medals too until for some reason one had to have Russian technique to start winning ice dancing titles and medals...then Montreal changed things.
 
Which American teams got medals at both World and Olympic level before Shpilband and Zoueva (O'Connor and Millns aside in 1976)?
I just said medals, not both. I mean ice dance wasn't an Olympic sport until 1976. So excusing 1976, Blumberg/Seibert were close to medaling at the 1984 Olympics, and were one judge away from doing so. They then won the bronze over the OBMs (and my fave team of all time) at Worlds a month later. We can possibly include Canadians too since they also had some successful couples in the past, namely Wilson/McCall. It wasn't until like the 1990s where it seemed one had to skate like the Russians to get some results and of course the influx of ex-Soviet emigrants coming to the U.S. and forming their own ice dance schools has heavily influenced American ice dance to what it was now. And now it's Montreal and the French school that is having influence that the Russian coaches had with North American ice dance. I was just saying, like the Brits, there was a whole school of American (U.S. and Canadian separately) ice dance with their own techniques, history, and such in the 20th century that had some success.
 
The relatively recent success of American ice dance would not have come about if it wasn’t for the Soviet Union and communism and has nothing to do with American ice dance from the 1950s and 1960s. You can think it has all you like, but it doesn’t.
 
The relatively recent success of American ice dance would not have come about if it wasn’t for the Soviet Union and communism and has nothing to do with American ice dance from the 1950s and 1960s. You can think it has all you like, but it doesn’t.
Did you actually read what I wrote? Maybe you missed this part:

...and of course the influx of ex-Soviet emigrants coming to the U.S. and forming their own ice dance schools has heavily influenced American ice dance to what it was now.

You forget, my initial response was to this post of yours:

Must be a hard pill for all those patriotic American ice dance fans that there would be no American ice dance programme without the Soviet Union and communism.

All I said in response was:

There used to be and they used to get medals too until for some reason one had to have Russian technique to start winning ice dancing titles and medals

There's nothing false in my statement.

Then you for some reason felt the need to challenge me and ask about Americans who won medals in ice dance and then excluded the first Olympics where there was an American team that won both an Olympic and World medal.

I just thought to provide some history that there was American ice dance out of respect and not to ERASE history. Once it became an Olympic sport and the sport side changed, it seemed the only techniques and style that were rewarded came from the Russian school of ice dance with their emphasis on more drama, athleticism, and speed. American ice dance subsequently suffered a drought but got back to the world competitive stage with the influx of ex-Soviet coaches coming here and forming their own ice dance schools. Which, I repeat, I already mentioned in a previous post.

I didn't say anything about influencing the current crop of American ice dance success which I clearly gave credit to the Russian coaches coming here and teaching generations of American skaters, thus giving them Russian technique that the judges appreciated.

I will say it is kind of false that American ice dance culture hasn't been part of the American ice dance success because I'm sure it's still there among the many teams of coaches who are not Russian/Soviet ex-patriates coaching under the ones who are Russian/Soviet ones. I mean, for one, Judy Blumberg is a tech caller and gets called in to check levels and such. Renee Roca is still coaching and helped the Shibs prepare for Pyeongchang, etc. Me saying that isn't erasing the fact that the Ex-Soviet/Russian coaches have driven the success of the American teams in the past few decades. That said, despite all the coaches being Russian, there is clearly something distinct about the "North American style" or otherwise people wouldn't have been bitching about it for a decade+ of Belbin/Agosto, Davis/White, and Virtue/Moir.
 
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Just to affirm what VGThuy has written there were a couple of American teams who medaled at Worlds before 1976, when worlds was a dance team's only opportunity for a medal on a world stage. In 1966 Kristin Fortune/Dennis Sveum won silver at Worlds. In the early 1970's Judy Schwomeyer/Jim Sladky won four medals at worlds (silver in 1970) and their coach was Ron Ludington.
Granted Soviet and Russian influence has been huge on American skating, but yes VGThuy is spot on in her observations that there was a time when American won a few medals without Russian coaching.
 
I will say it is kind of false that American ice dance culture hasn't been part of the American ice dance success because I'm sure it's still there among the many teams of coaches who are not Russian/Soviet ex-patriates coaching under the ones who are Russian/Soviet ones. I mean, for one, Judy Blumberg is a tech caller and gets called in to check levels and such. Renee Roca is still coaching and helped the Shibs prepare for Pyeongchang, etc. Me saying that isn't erasing the fact that the Ex-Soviet/Russian coaches have driven the success of the American teams in the past few decades. That said, despite all the coaches being Russian, there is clearly something distinct about the "North American style" or otherwise people wouldn't have been bitching about it for a decade+ of Belbin/Agosto, Davis/White, and Virtue/Moir.
It seems that there was a North American style that was not favored by the judges, and then a Marina Zoueva style that was favored by the judges.
 
It was a Canadian team that did the Cunniliftus. Just sayin'...... :shuffle:
I do not understand to what you refer. And frankly,I do not care to know.

She probably thinks Canada doesn't exist and North America actually means America ;)
I am not an uncultivated millennial, my dear. I indeed meant North America,although admittedly have an affinity for American ice dance of the 70s and 80s.

Just to affirm what VGThuy has written there were a couple of American teams who medaled at Worlds before 1976, when worlds was a dance team's only opportunity for a medal on a world stage. In 1966 Kristin Fortune/Dennis Sveum won silver at Worlds. In the early 1970's Judy Schwomeyer/Jim Sladky won four medals at worlds (silver in 1970) and their coach was Ron Ludington.
Granted Soviet and Russian influence has been huge on American skating, but yes VGThuy is spot on in her observations that there was a time when American won a few medals without Russian coaching.
Thank you for this fabulous post.

Schwomeyer+Sladky were divine. No Russian theatrics or wanton costumes here,my friends. Clean,honest and pure skating—just as ice dance should be.

-BB
 
The style pre-Bolero is in many ways completely different than the style after Bolero.

Everyone had to evolve.
And it’s interesting that it wasn’t the British school that took charge and dominated but the Russian one did and outside of the Duchesnays and Anissina/Peizerat and Fusar-Poli/Margaglio, it seemed as every champion team had to adapt with Russian/Soviet coaches and their technique for like three decades.
 
And it’s interesting that it wasn’t the British school that took charge and dominated but the Russian one did and outside of the Duchesnays and Anissina/Peizerat and Fusar-Poli/Margaglio, it seemed as every champion team had to adapt with Russian/Soviet coaches and their technique for like three decades.
I would assume the Russian dance coaches found the dramatic story-telling style from Bolero fit very well with their own traditions in storytelling, ballet, and classical music. They embraced the style, and of course, re-envisioned it into their own.
 
I think that kind of explains some of the...clipped tone American commentary we got in the 1990s from the likes of Bezic and Wilson about the Russian dominance. Even Rene Roca joked about Russian technique about skating on flats and using ones arms and face to perform their programs had they she and Gorsha Sur decided to use Russian coaches instead of American ice dance ones.
 
I don't remember associating Russian ice dancing with skating on flats?

Neither do I. See the compulsory dances of all the top Russian teams of that era....
I’m just quoting her at the 1:05 mark:

https://youtu.be/hzFD0JxyF6E

I think to be fair, this interview was coming off the 1991-1992 season where ice dance got really theatrical and less step-oriented causing the ISU to implement the boring ballroom like requirements the following year.

I think one thing the ISU was mindful of doing when forming IJS was bringing back the importance of edges and steps through the requirements and the harshness of calling and giving credit in both the compulsory (pattern) and non compulsory steps. Even Platov himself said hitting the exact edges deeply enough weren’t important during his time during the compulsory dances so long as you looked like you were in total command.
 
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Translated interview (originally published on March 19 by Olga Ermolina on fsrussia.ru):
 
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Jackie Wong's ice dance predictions (top 15):
(He also tweeted: "Skating twitter: But he knows nothing about ice dance" ;))

Tanith White will join Jackie's Instagram Live ice dance preview tonight (ETA link to watch the replay video): https://www.instagram.com/tv/CMve0GXphAx/
 
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Jackie is trying to make the #1 spot on "my list" above Phil. Not going to happen, nice try though. :)
 
I would assume the Russian dance coaches found the dramatic story-telling style from Bolero fit very well with their own traditions in storytelling, ballet, and classical music. They embraced the style, and of course, re-envisioned it into their own.
What's important to remember is that Torvill & Dean, in their own biographies, always attributed the primary structure of their choreography in general (not specifically be Bolero) to inspiration by Moiseeva & Minenkov's, who were coached by Tarasova from their pairing in 1970 through to 1979.
 
What's important to remember is that Torvill & Dean, in their own biographies, always attributed the primary structure of their choreography in general (not specifically be Bolero) to inspiration by Moiseeva & Minenkov's, who were coached by Tarasova from their pairing in 1970 through to 1979.
They sort of broke through that Iron Curtain because it seemed the West were quite taken with them, even giving the nickname "Minnie & Mo".

It's just really interesting to see the World Champions/medalists before Ice Dance became an Olympic sport and then after. It seems like before it entered the Olympics, the British were dominators, and it probably resembled a lot more traditional ballroom. Then after it became an Olympic sport, it really opened itself up to more theatrical and dramatic styles of dance (after years of ballroom-mandated rules...which is probably why the FDs of say, Linichuk/Karponosov, had like 3-4 different music cuts each with it's own clear rhythm), and the Soviets probably added more speed and power as well. Bestemianova/Bukin, as much as I criticize them compared to Klimova/Ponomarenko, definitely FLEW across that ice.
 
They sort of broke through that Iron Curtain because it seemed the West were quite taken with them, even giving the nickname "Minnie & Mo".

It's just really interesting to see the World Champions/medalists before Ice Dance became an Olympic sport and then after. It seems like before it entered the Olympics, the British were dominators, and it probably resembled a lot more traditional ballroom. Then after it became an Olympic sport, it really opened itself up to more theatrical and dramatic styles of dance (after years of ballroom-mandated rules...which is probably why the FDs of say, Linichuk/Karponosov, had like 3-4 different music cuts each with it's own clear rhythm), and the Soviets probably added more speed and power as well. Bestemianova/Bukin, as much as I criticize them compared to Klimova/Ponomarenko, definitely FLEW across that ice.
To continue, in a lot of ways Bestemianova & Bukin picked up where Torvill & Dean left off with the story telling - which is kind of odd that they weren't as much like that before T&D retired since they were coached by Tarasova themselves like Minnie & Mo. B&B did do the 3 element patterning that T&D's choreography was structured off of pre-1984, but the storytelling took a big part after that. Klimova & Ponomarenko - who I adore FYI - weren't doing storytelling in their programs at all, nor were their programs structured with much repetition + variation which both T&D and B&B did (that changed throughout their career, though).
 
I think the hurdle has been largely passed if she already has a green card. At this point, to say that she's crossing the border for coaching to represent the US at the Olympics is a strong argument in her favor -- if C/P are actually going there and not to a US coach.

If C/P really are going to IAM, I'd hope this has all been run in front of immigration officials by USFS or others.
 
Klimova & Ponomarenko - who I adore FYI - weren't doing storytelling in their programs at all, nor were their programs structured with much repetition + variation which both T&D and B&B did (that changed throughout their career, though).
Yep, and it seems K&P got bored with that and ultimately moved into full-on drama later.
 
I am honestly still a bit bored. Not really invested in dance as a sport much this quad. Please tell me they're some teams to root for coming up because right now every other discipline seems way more interesting. Sigh.
 
Unfortunately,since the retirement of Virtue+Moir, ice dance has become a sport for pseudo-intellectuals with European sensibilities.

-BB
I really miss the team that was the epitome of that description this year. Papadakis/Cizeron are the only ice dance team currently competing that I find to be deserving to be called World Champion. Alas, they're not here and there are many highly skilled teams that are good enough if P/C can't compete.
 

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