The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

[yurokis40]

Euros is unfair because of the level of politiks played there. And considering team Zhulin's power there, S&D were too much at a disadvantage there. Remember how many judges are tight with Gatbois when considering worlds. Zhulin won't be able to play the same game there, and IMO, he'll pay the political price in return too.

I don`t buy it the judges have proven they like Sinkats gadbois or no gadbois, The french just don`t have good programs this year and Gabriella has not been skating well this year.

 

[thvu]

Euros is unfair because of the level of politiks played there. And considering team Zhulin's power there, S&D were too much at a disadvantage there. Remember how many judges are tight with Gatbois when considering worlds. Zhulin won't be able to play the same game there, and IMO, he'll pay the political price in return too.

I agree. Remember 2001-02 GPF anyone? The judges dumped on B&K for the rest of the season. Or 2007 Euros? Delobel & Schoenfelder won over Denkova & Staviksi and then were summarily dumped by the judges at Worlds.

The pool of judges for Worlds mostly pro-Gadbois. The bloc that pushed S&K ahead at Euros will find their influence much diminished at Worlds. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if S&K don't medal, either from their own mistakes or from the political payback or both.

 

[heartyxo]

I think S/K have a good chance for a medal at worlds but could get pushed down to bronze by C&B, as well as P&C

 

[happycamper2554]

I think S/K have a good chance for a medal at worlds but could get pushed down to bronze by C&B, as well as P&C

I think it will come down to the levels by the tech caller. Especially in the Rd. Remember china. Chock and bates have still not gotten levels called internationally.

 

[Ka3sha]

Could someone please share a link to the judges draw at Worlds?

 

[Ka3sha]

I think it will come down to the levels by the tech caller. Especially in the Rd. Remember china. Chock and bates have still not gotten levels called internationally.

It’s not only C/B’s problem. I think that most of Gadbois teams have struggled with pattern levels recently.

 

[Noush18]

Could someone please share a link to the judges draw at Worlds?

https://t.co/A5zsOHVdvw?amp=1

 

[TheresMaude]

I think teams with a stronger female and weaker male have done better historically than vice versa and actually

The one that immediately springs to mind is Fusar-Poli/Margaglio.

Regarding H/D's free dance, the Flutz Sisters (as I like to call Alicia and Mary of the Flutzes and Waxels podcast) pointed out that H/D do not place their elements well in relation to the natural contours of their music. I went back and watched, and I really think that contributes to the lack of impact. There's kind of an incoherent quality that blunts the impressiveness of their skating.

 

[allezfred]

P/C are going to be in the same fix as H/D if they don’t rethink their programs, especially the FD. I find this year’s so pretentious and unmusical, and even demigods can be toppled.

Yes, they should drop the programme they have scored a world record with this season.

 

[Dobre]

Euros is unfair because of the level of politiks played there. And considering team Zhulin's power there, S&D were too much at a disadvantage there.

And considering that the international tech panel members pulled in for Spanish Nationals were from France & Canada, the politics there were probably pro-Montreal.

This fight is such a lovely little microcosm of the ice dance world. Though I think the Grease number really suits Smart & Diaz, and I think the Spanish FD for Hurtado & Khaliavin is quite powerful.

Having said that, I am so rooting for the Charlie Chaplin Look-a-like Contest in the RD.

 

[VGThuy]

It’s so true that the whole Spanish team rivalry truly is this weird microcosm of ice dance politicks. It’s like when the U.S and the USSR would use Korea and Vietnam as proxy wars to fight the Cold War.

 

[aftershocks]

I suppose now French Fed and Gadbois camp will go politicking even harder than usual. American and Canadian Fed may join them as well since this result diminishes their teams' chances at Worlds medal. And then of course Russian Fed, Zhulin etc. will politick back.

So I'm not sure how teams will perform at Worlds but I'm sure we will see a back-and-forth politicking war reaching its apex.

Zhulin and Rusfed are the major aggressors, and Gadbois knows how to fight back. Do not kid yourself. It's not enough that Russians dominate pairs historically and have always maneuvered to continue ensuring their pairs teams are in a position to take gold at the Olympics, which has been a tradition since 1964 -- despite Russian teams missing out in 2010 and 2018, and having to share with Canada in 2002. The lagging behind NA dominance in ice dance irks Russians big time. That's why the body shaming of Madi Hubbell, and the not-so-veiled references by a former Russian ice dancer to being confused by 'two females skating together,' (i.e., P/C) and by 'two males skating together,' (i.e., H/D).

Since the Russians stole the World championships from a U.S. team in 1970, the current NA dominance is karmic payback. The current political hardball and soap opera intrigue may thrill some fans, but it doesn't say much for the sport's legitimacy.

P/C are in the position where for many, the idea of them losing has become more interesting and newsworthy than the idea of them winning. Once that happens to an ice dance team, they need to watch out.

Hubbell/Donohue have just been though the beginning and end of that phase much faster.

I'm just pleased that we finally have a rivalry where both teams don't train together - first time in about a decade. It's been a decade since gold vs silver has actually been politicked from different coaching groups who have no issues openly exploiting the others' weakness. Bring it on.

Eh, it's all pure political bs. While Sin/Kats and Step/Buk have improved, neither team are overall as good as the scores they are receiving. Previously, Bobrova/Soloviev were pushed up and pushed down our throats, but their mediocrity was too obvious. Even then, B/S were often in front of teams they had no business beating. But B/S could never quite make the World podium, because too many teams were too obviously better. B/S are nice people, but not great ice dancers.

Now Zhulin (smarting from not getting the full recognition and rewards he deserved during his career) is with a vengeance doing the heavy politicking against Gadbois. There's a lot of Russian animosity toward North American team dominance in ice dance. M-F and Gadbois are doing their own politicking back, but in truth Gadbois actually has the best teams. I know it's all emotional and political for fans and viewpoints are often based on who fans like on a visceral level. Of course, there's a desire in many quarters to see P/C taken down and to not allow them to win all the time. The reality though is that P/C are much better than the rest of the field. There's no way S/K are that close to P/C in ability, I don't care how improved Zhulin has made them.

The fact there was some change in the scoring where teams are not supposed to be given 10s on PCS anymore was one of the political maneuvers employed to take P/C down. Everyone who understands how figure skating and backstage politicking in ice dance works, knows what's going on. Fans can kid themselves and sugarcoat scenarios all they want.

to the idea that Sin/Kats are valid 'rivals' to P/C. Virtue/Moir vs P/C was actually a legitimate rivalry. The current Russian teams rival each other, but it's the politics of ice dance that has S/K and S/B even being looked at as rival threats to teams who are clearly superior in ability.

 

[mjb52]

It's obvious some P/C fans just want them to be held up no matter how they skate. That's fine, we are all human here, but it's sort of disingenuous to pretend otherwise with all this conspiracy theorizing about the judging while simultaneously salivating over the possibility that the panel at worlds will be biased on behalf of P/C. In the meantime in their own interviews Sinitsina and Katsalapov just talk about working harder, continuing to improve, and doing their best.

 

[VGThuy]

Well, it's not like P/C had a disaster or anything. I think some people simply aren't convinced that S/K are a team that are on a level to take advantage of P/C making small mistakes that only result in a TES loss of 0.15 points, and we haven't even discussed PCS yet. I'm not entirely convinced either and it seems rushed and thus artificial, which is why the whole panel discussion is happening because some think the panel make-up is why this result happened.

 

[aftershocks]

Sinitsina and Katsalapov just talk about working harder, continuing to improve, and doing their best.

Yep and knowing Daddy Zhulin and Rusfed got their backs regardless.

... the possibility that the panel at worlds will be biased

The panels are always biased. The sport is political and subjective, which means it's not always fair. Fans are emotional, particularly right after hotbed events. There's always a lot that goes on behind-the-scenes that many fans know nothing about, and that other fans find out about from sources in-the-know.

It's always been a rigged sport, more-so during certain periods of time than at other times, and historically ice dance has always been uber political.

It's obvious some P/C fans just want them to be held up no matter how they skate.

It's obvious some S/K and S/B fans just want them to be held up no matter their skill level, and no matter how they skate.

 

[MsZem]

Yep and knowing Daddy Zhulin and Rusfed got their backs regardless.

Coaches and federations politik for their skaters, what a shocking revelation.

 

[aftershocks]

Coaches and federations politik for their skaters, what a shocking revelation.

What an astute observation just to get in your two-cents. ((Clap))

 

[Ka3sha]

I know that most people won’t agree with me on this but this season I had a feeling that P/C had been also held up by judges (GPF being the biggest example, when they got + GOE for the steps in the RD with Gabriella almost falling on one of the steps). They have not showed their best this season (yet) but still beat one record after another. So I believe that in long-term perspective P/C will only benefit from this loss at Europeans.

As for SinKats, I don’t think they can truly challenge the French in the FD, but at their very best they could be very close to P/C in the RD.

 

[Immortelle]

Regardless of the politics which may have been involved in the results, P/C looked sluggish in their RD when compared to earlier in the season. I also feel that the choreo changes haven’t added anything to the program and may have hindered cohesion (to my untrained eye). In the FD, Gabi looked anxious at the beginning and and distraught by the end. They skated tentatively IMO, and it showed. I believe Nikita’s costume change in the RD was a master stroke. S/K skated both their programs the best I’ve seen this season. I’ll never be a major fan of this FD but they brought the depth and drama to it this time that was lacking before. I agree with many that thought G/F were hard done by, and I think they should have been closer to the lead after the RD.
If Gabi is indeed struggling with anxiety and mental health issues, my heart goes out to her. I salute S/K for their efforts to close the gap, especially Vika who has endured some difficult times and proved the doubters wrong.
I hope P/C bounce back, and I hope S/K continue to work hard and offer some competition. I’m looking forward to Worlds!

 

[starrynight]

I wouldn’t be surprised if PC are just bored. In dance there’s no new jumps to master in order to compete with yourself. If there’s no competition, then training would become a real slog.

 

[Icandance]

Yes, they should drop the programme they have scored a world record with this season.

Some judges can be intimidated by a skater/team reputation rather than what is put on the ice.

 

[PRlady]

Tessa was equal, if not unequivocally considered the MVP of Virtue/Moir. I don’t remember any criticism of Delobel and Schoenfelder’s match (Isabelle got her fair share of body hate, but I don’t remember people saying Olivier was superior).

The woman is often “presented” in dance; that dynamic makes the role more inherently open to criticism.

I think it’s also somewhat due to Belbin/Agosto and the negative reaction to the rise of North American ice dance. North American ice dance at the time was characterized by speed and the incorporation of more acrobatic lifts. Criticism that then followed was to say it was frantic toe pushing and dragging of the lady. Belbin/Agosto’s rise was often said to be due in part to Tanith’s looks and flexibility, not her skating skills. It became a more du jour ice dance critique from there, IMO.

There was a former ice dancer on SkateFans for whom Delobel was the most overrated lady ever, and I remember several agreeing with that description. Olivier was generally heralded as a very talented guy. I found their dancing "heavy" in general and no I don't mean her body type.

The Russians used to slag Tanith as just a pretty face but of course they were competing with N/K and D/S so I always thought that was strategic on their part.

The Shibs and the Parsons were well-matched and no one said one was stronger technically than the other. In terms of classic teams, towards the end thanks to injury, Pasha Grishuk was doing the heavy work with her partnership with Evgeny Platov but before his injury they were considered equal. Marina Anissina/Gwendal Peizerat were also well-matched as well. As were Klimova/Ponomarenko.

I actually think it used to be way more common for the female partner to be stronger with some exceptions and I think teams with a stronger female and weaker male have done better historically than vice versa and actually, the teams where the male was stronger than the woman seemed to be criticized a lot more than the converse, which may say something about standards and expectations being unequal across gender lines. Historically speaking I mean.

The criticisms I've read of Meryl, Stepanova (although even I can see her skating weaknesses), Piper Gilles (likewise), Hawayek, Carreira, Fear etc etc do make me believe that the cognoscenti are harder on the female partner. F-P/M were the one team I remember where the guy regularly got trashed for his lesser abilities, although certain guys with skills who regularly biffed something like the twizzles -- Poje, Nikita -- have come in for their fair share of criticism.

I feel like the Brits have pulled ahead of their competitors - the value of smart music/program choices (see also Chock and Bates).

I sat next to Fear's mom at IdF in 2017, and she was worried they would never pass the Poles because of politiking. Well, Gadbois took care of that one alright.

 

[Amantide]

I know that most people won’t agree with me on this but this season I had a feeling that P/C had been also held up by judges (GPF being the biggest example, when they got + GOE for the steps in the RD with Gabriella almost falling on one of the steps). They have not showed their best this season (yet) but still beat one record after another. So I believe that in long-term perspective P/C will only benefit from this loss at Europeans.

As for SinKats, I don’t think they can truly challenge the French in the FD, but at their very best they could be very close to P/C in the RD.

I agree with you on both accounts. I'm still shocked though.

 

[Dobre]

Well, it's not like P/C had a disaster or anything. I think some people simply aren't convinced that S/K are a team that are on a level to take advantage of P/C making small mistakes that only result in a TES loss of 0.15 points, and we haven't even discussed PCS yet.

Five minutes of discussion by the tech panel. I'd hypothesize they were teetering on disaster there for all five.

Tell those same people that S&K being on the level to take advantage of P&C's mistakes means that the 4 other teams that defeated S&K at the GPF are also in range to take advantage of P&C's mistakes, and I suspect a few fans might change their minds.

 

[aftershocks]

Tell those same people that S&K being on the level to take advantage of P&C's mistakes means that the 4 other teams that defeated S&K at the GPF are also in range to take advantage of P&C's mistakes, and I suspect a few fans might change their minds.

Ice dance politics as usual, with fans lining up on the side of wherever as usual. The other teams who defeated S/K and S/B at GPF are better than S/K and S/B too. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. P/C are at this moment in time, still head-and-shoulders above the rest of the field, despite the successful effort at Euros to take them down and some fans' desire to justify it. By all of percentage points, heh heh. The better for fans to swallow it and come around to the idea by 2022.

No athletes are completely invincible but the Russian strategy of pushing less than stellar ice dance teams down our throat and floating p.r. scenarios via quotes in articles, etc. has been quite the success. Zhulin is surely cackling and rubbing his hands together anticipating their next moves. We'll see how Gadbois fights back.

 

[supergirl573]

Tessa was equal, if not unequivocally considered the MVP of Virtue/Moir. I don’t remember any criticism of Delobel and Schoenfelder’s match (Isabelle got her fair share of body hate, but I don’t remember people saying Olivier was superior).

The woman is often “presented” in dance; that dynamic makes the role more inherently open to criticism.

I think it’s also somewhat due to Belbin/Agosto and the negative reaction to the rise of North American ice dance. North American ice dance at the time was characterized by speed and the incorporation of more acrobatic lifts. Criticism that then followed was to say it was frantic toe pushing and dragging of the lady. Belbin/Agosto’s rise was often said to be due in part to Tanith’s looks and flexibility, not her skating skills. It became a more du jour ice dance critique from there, IMO.

Tessa Virtue was considered for many years to be inferior technically to Scott. However, it wasn't because she was bad. It was because he's so good.

 

[clairecloutier]

There was a link posted earlier to a French article about Papadakis/Cizeron and how they almost didn't compete at Euros. But I can't find the link. Could someone re-post it, if possible? Thanks in advance!

 

[cocotaffy]

There was a link posted earlier to a French article about Papadakis/Cizeron and how they almost didn't compete at Euros. But I can't find the link. Could someone re-post it, if possible? Thanks in advance!

Interesting article indeed which puts a lot of things in perspective regarding Gaby's performances this season. She had uncharacteristic bobbles here and there in couple of events when she had been so strong the last couple of seasons.

 

[clairecloutier]

Thanks @cocotaffy! That article definitely helps understand their situation.

 

[heartyxo]

I hope Gabi can rest mentally and physically and come back stronger at worlds! I'm rooting for them