The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

starrynight

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I mean the rules may be tweaked again next season, but we've basically already had this before. Gilles/Poirier created the Maple Leaf March from their 2015/16 SD, and next season the juniors will be debuting the brand new Tea Time Foxtrot, created from Kaliszek/Spodiriev's SD from the same season.

I've heard a lot that the compulsories were not meant to be skated in a way that best allows teams to hit their keypoints, and I am curious to see if the new patterns are better suited to the key point system.
I went back and watched the Tea Time Foxtrot section of their SD by Kaliszek and Spodyriev - it was beautiful. (A good example of a high quality step sequence coming from a place where you'd least expect it). I think that season, though because they did have the compulsory pattern section, the self-created step sequence wasn't as much at the forefront - some teams just ticked the boxes of what they needed to do and others went the extra mile. Often its the lower ranked teams with less to lose who are more willing to experiment.

It seems to me that Guignard & Fabbri and Sinitsina & Katsalapov's tangos are both in character and hitting most of the keypoints.
Yes, but the ice dance world needs to be doing something to politik its way out of the mess it's in this season. The levels are making the top teams look like amateurs. I expect to hear a lot more from coaches about how the tango romantica is badly designed if that's the viewpoint Gadbois is taking as to why most of the dance teams can't do it.
 
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Icetigger

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I expect to hear a lot more from coaches about how the tango romantica is badly designed if that's the viewpoint Gadbois is taking as to why most of the dance teams can't do it.
There are problems all round with the Gadbois tangoes- beyond the TR. The only good Gadbois tango straight out of the starting blocks was P/C's which is Dean choreography. Their problems with the TR are as much an extension of that as because of an incompatibility between the set pattern and the key point system. The fact they didn't bring in outside choreographers for any of their 17 or 18 teams (except those I'm sure P/C brought in themselves) for either the RD or the FD says to me they are operating in their interests above their teams. Unfortunately when up against Dean, Igor and the Russians, their tango choreography is third rate. If it wasn't for the TR taking up a substantial part of their RD's, it would be even more painfully apparent.
 

starrynight

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Were P/C the only ones to get outside choreography? It is unusual isn't it that out of that many teams, only one chose different choreographers. But it could just be a financial thing. Maybe a lot of the teams have spent all their funds moving to Montreal, paying coaching fees etc and don't have any left over for getting in outside specialists who they would have to pay on top of their other expenses? Or do they have to pay for Gadbois choreography as an extra fee anyway? (I'm not sure how it works).
 

Ka3sha

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FS-gossips translated interview with Sinitsina/Katsalapov
https://fs-gossips.com/victoria-sin...-ready-to-compete-with-papadakis-and-cizeron/

About not getting to Pyeongchang
Victoria: We wasn’t in a state when it couldn’t get any worse. We gathered our thoughts and continued to train.
Nikita: There was no feeling of the abyss, because we were not going to stop and quit. We just started new year from scratch.

About music for the free dance
Nikita:
Our coach just brought the music and said: “We will skate to it” and explained why. I liked the idea, I wanted to try myself in a light, calm, flying program. But I still needed a week or two to fall in love with this music.
Victoria: Every season our programs change. This is normal. We don’t copy anyone and don’t try to repeat. We are looking for ourselves and our style.

About silver medal at GPF
Nikita:
It will be very motivating, it’s cool and nice. But we are well aware that many pairs haven’t shown themselves yet, but they are training and waiting for their start. We took what we deserved. Before the championship, someone mentioned our internal rivalry with Sasha and Vanya (Alexandra Stepanova and Ivan Bukin), and we thought that once we had a cool skating in Vancouver, it could turn out well in Saransk too. By the way, before the free dance I thought that this would be our seventh performance of the season, so it should be lucky.

About reboot
Nikita:
I just calmed down somehow, after last year’s Russian Natioanals, exhaled and started from scratch. Like I’ve rebooted myself, each practice I started to look for things that turn out, more comfortable ways for me to work. Began to look for a way how to work hard and feel good. After all, figure skating is my whole life.

About European Championships
Nikita:
Are we ready to compete with the French pair Papadakis / Cizeron? Yes! It’s cool that we still have time. I have already reviewed our performances on YouTube and understand what needs to be worked on. Before the New Year, we need to work on everything on maximum, to finish the year well. In any case, in Minsk we will do our maximum, and there – come what may!

About Argentine Tango
Nikita:
When Vika and I were living in Michigan, Marina Zueva sent us to her friend, an Argentinian dancer. In his house the basement was turned into a dance class, then four years ago we started to work on tango. Tango is my most favorite dance. As soon as they announced that the theme of this year’s short dance was tango-romantica, Vika immediately called Dima Vasin and Sagdiana Khamzina (world champions in Argentine tango) and asked to work with us. We love this dance!
 

Icetigger

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Are you including Romain and Sam in your dislike of Gadbois choreography or is it only MFD?
I don't know who has individual responsibility for what with regard to each programme. I can only guess.

The tangoes across the board are uniformly not up to scratch. Smart/Diaz have a lot of style and character to their performance (but I think that comes from previous training on both parts). Soucisse and Firus have a great lift. H/D's has now been improved by making is closer to S/K's and P/C's. But overall the fundamentals of tango and its translation to ice are not understood at Gadbois.
 
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Peepsquick

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Katsalapov in f-s Gossips on V/M:

"Well, Charlie White, when we were training at the same rink, told me that Scott and Tessa almost didn’t need to train."

Very strange comment ...
 

Dobre

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I expect to hear a lot more from coaches about how the tango romantica is badly designed if that's the viewpoint Gadbois is taking as to why most of the dance teams can't do it.
I don't know. I remember Charlie talking last season when he was asked about the rhumba. (Which most people seemed to agree was not really a rhumba). He said he liked the difficulty because he knew if he & Meryl performed it correctly, they could stand out from the crowd.

And I liked McNamara & Carpenter's interview prior to competing at Skate America. They were asked how they felt about their programs and said they loved the tango. That it was a challenge. Like solving a puzzle.

I would think that many coaches would be thrilled to get to "show their stuff." Barbara is breaking through as a coach on this tango, IMO. Koch & Nuchtern have essentially passed Muller & Dieck on the strength of it. The two Wheaton teams have 8 rockers between them so their coaches are proving themselves as well. Shpilband and Bourzat were already in favor of making the keypoints matter. Zhulin has a team climbing the ranks. My guess is that many of the coaches and teams are thinking like Charlie--that this is an opportunity if they can meet the challenge.

And it is clearly a big challenge--at least when it comes to getting those calls from most of the tech panels we have seen on the GP.
 

RoseRed

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Katsalapov in f-s Gossips on V/M:

"Well, Charlie White, when we were training at the same rink, told me that Scott and Tessa almost didn’t need to train."

Very strange comment ...
Looking the full quote, I would read that as Charlie saying that they were more naturally talented than him, and that he caught up due to tons of hard work in combo with Tessa's injuries preventing them from training so much. Of course, this is a translation of Nikita repeating something Charlie said, so I don't know if that's actually what Charlie thinks, but it's what Nikita seems to be saying here.

About idols
Nikita: Of course, Scott Moir! Because this is real dancing on ice, without a single unnatural movement! This is what I would like to watch as a viewer, without thinking about stupid edges. Are they talented from God and it’s impossible to reach them? Well, Charlie White, when we were training at the same rink, told me that Scott and Tessa almost didn’t need to train. Only she had problems with legs, and had to take surgeries. And Charlie has worked around the clock to get to this level. In any case, everyone has his own way. Maybe someone just can’t use talent and someone has a talent not to get out of the ice and to work non stop.
 

RoseRed

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And on Gadbois choreo, I personally like lots of the programs this season, like S/D's tango, both of Lajoie/Lagha's programs, Bronsard/Bouaraguia's FD, both of Fear/Gibson's programs, Fournier Beaudry/Sorensen's tango, Lauriault/Le Gac's FD, among others. And I like most of what Gadbois (MFD and Romain) have done for others in choreo this year, like Stellato/Bartholomay's FS, D'Alessandro/Waddell's programs.
 

starrynight

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I don't know. I remember Charlie talking last season when he was asked about the rhumba. (Which most people seemed to agree was not really a rhumba). He said he liked the difficulty because he knew if he & Meryl performed it correctly, they could stand out from the crowd.

And I liked McNamara & Carpenter's interview prior to competing at Skate America. They were asked how they felt about their programs and said they loved the tango. That it was a challenge. Like solving a puzzle.

I would think that many coaches would be thrilled to get to "show their stuff." Barbara is breaking through as a coach on this tango, IMO. Koch & Nuchtern have essentially passed Muller & Dieck on the strength of it. The two Wheaton teams have 8 rockers between them so their coaches are proving themselves as well. Shpilband and Bourzat were already in favor of making the keypoints matter. Zhulin has a team climbing the ranks. My guess is that many of the coaches and teams are thinking like Charlie--that this is an opportunity if they can meet the challenge.

And it is clearly a big challenge--at least when it comes to getting those calls from most of the tech panels we have seen on the GP.
Yes and in their interview linked above Katsalapov says that he and Viktoria love the tango - so not all teams dislike it. However, I am reminded of that (controversial) interview Papadakis/Cizeron gave where they described the Rhumba as something like tacky or whatnot and not a real rhumba. So I just think they really dislike compulsory dances, so it's not the first time they have criticised the short/rhythm dance requirements.

I hope that coaches like Barbara Fusar-Poli get the recognition they deserve for really working on this pattern, rather than just relying on GOE. It's kind of a shame that Chock/Bates aren't still with Shpilband as I would be interested to see what he could do with a top team and the levels on this RD. I know Shpilband is occasionally working with Weaver/Poje, but not on a day to day basis.

Btw ... just talking about Barbara, I am just laughing to myself remembering the technical committee video where the panel said 'can we all introduce ourselves so those listening online know who you are'. Barbara: 'it's me'. :rofl:
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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Yes and in their interview linked above Katsalapov says that he and Viktoria love the tango - so not all teams dislike it. However, I am reminded of that (controversial) interview Papadakis/Cizeron gave where they described the Rhumba as something like tacky or whatnot and not a real rhumba. So I just think they really dislike compulsory dances, so it's not the first time they have criticised the short/rhythm dance requirements.

I hope that coaches like Barbara Fusar-Poli get the recognition they deserve for really working on this pattern, rather than just relying on GOE. It's kind of a shame that Chock/Bates aren't still with Shpilband as I would be interested to see what he could do with a top team and the levels on this RD. I know Shpilband is occasionally working with Weaver/Poje, but not on a day to day basis.

Btw ... just talking about Barbara, I am just laughing to myself remembering the technical committee video where the panel said 'can we all introduce ourselves so those listening online know who you are'. Barbara: 'it's me'. :rofl:
I agree with this post, except that P/C weren't talking about the rhumba pattern itself but just the Latin American rhythm in general saying when ice dancers do it, it can look tacky. It's the same way some people think Latin Ballroom competitions are tacky with the dress and make-up and hair and interpretation. They were taken to task for those comments as some people thought they were criticizing a whole culture of people as some times even latin dancing by real people can be looked on as "tacky" by outsiders. Other people agreed with P/C and wanted to see classier and more grounded latin dances that didn't seem like a caricature. I think the ISU sort of dodged a bullet at the Olympics as nobody on twitter or tumblr (maybe I missed it) en masse talked about cultural appropriation or anything like that. People really seemed to enjoy all the dances, even the ones that got criticized (like V/M's non-Latin music Latin dance using music that matched the bpm).
 

starrynight

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My non-figure skating fan colleagues were impressed by the Rhumba actually because they immediately recognised it as a popular ballroom theme.

So they were saying things like 'oh ice dance... and they do actual dancing!'

So I think there is a lot of benefit to doing something very recognisable as 'ballroom' for the Olympic season because it helps casual viewers understand what ice dance is meant to be about and why it is different from the other disciplines. Ice dance = dancing on ice.

By the way, does anyone know when Gilles/Poirer's March is going to be used as a pattern dance? Will they be testing that one out on the juniors first before they used it in seniors?
 

Peepsquick

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Yes and in their interview linked above Katsalapov says that he and Viktoria love the tango - so not all teams dislike it. However, I am reminded of that (controversial) interview Papadakis/Cizeron gave where they described the Rhumba as something like tacky or whatnot and not a real rhumba. So I just think they really dislike compulsory dances, so it's not the first time they have criticised the short/rhythm dance requirements.

I hope that coaches like Barbara Fusar-Poli get the recognition they deserve for really working on this pattern, rather than just relying on GOE. It's kind of a shame that Chock/Bates aren't still with Shpilband as I would be interested to see what he could do with a top team and the levels on this RD. I know Shpilband is occasionally working with Weaver/Poje, but not on a day to day basis.

Btw ... just talking about Barbara, I am just laughing to myself remembering the technical committee video where the panel said 'can we all introduce ourselves so those listening online know who you are'. Barbara: 'it's me'. :rofl:
They actually don't ... they said many times that they enjoyed performing last season short dance and I actually understand from their comment this season that they particularly like their Tango. So no, I disagree with that judgement.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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I think my favorite rhumba last year is still Weaver/Poje's rhumba. To me, they gave a grounded and authentic-feeling dance while still going for performance value. Their music seemed to be what real people in every day life would dance to as well.
 

chameleonster

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By the way, does anyone know when Gilles/Poirer's March is going to be used as a pattern dance? Will they be testing that one out on the juniors first before they used it in seniors?
It can't be used on the senior level while Gilles/Poirier are still competing, but I don't know how they plan to schedule the new patterns introduction to competition.
 

starrynight

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https://www.isu.org/isu-congresses/480-isu-communication-2019/file

It says in that communication that the following dances will be added to the 2018-2022 cycle:

  •  March created by Piper GILLES and Paul POIRIER (Coaches: Carol Lane and Juris Razgulajevs)

  •  Foxtrot created by Natalia KALISZEK and Maksim SPODIREV (Coach: Sylwia NowakTrebacka

  • Proposed to resume work on the other new Pattern Dance Rhumba d’Amor, created by Jane Torvill and Christopher Dean in 1993.

Ice Dance Technical Committee would like to introduce this dance as well as the other two new Pattern Dances selected from the Partial Steps Sequences in the new Olympic cycle 2018-2022.

The Council at their meeting in Dubrovnik accepted the project with these new Pattern Dances. The IDTC hopes that this pool of new Pattern Dances can be increased in the future by other worthy dances to new Rhythms.

--- So if they can't have the seniors skate a pattern created by an actively competing senior team, then maybe it will go to the juniors if they are wanting to use it this cycle. What an honour for these teams and coaches.

It seems like there may well be a big focus on introducing new patterns which suit the key point judging system.

Here is the Rhumba D'Amor by Torvill & Dean - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blGxv_LaRk8
It's pretty epic and would make an amazing rhythm dance. Love the steps at this point: https://youtu.be/blGxv_LaRk8?t=109
 
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Tak

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Katsalapov in f-s Gossips on V/M:

"Well, Charlie White, when we were training at the same rink, told me that Scott and Tessa almost didn’t need to train."

Very strange comment ...
Why? It's a compliment, no? I took that to mean they were so naturally talented and good, it's like they almost didn't need to train.

A very nice and classy thing to say about your competition.
 

Peepsquick

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Why? It's a compliment, no? I took that to mean they were so naturally talented and good, it's like they almost didn't need to train.

A very nice and classy thing to say about your competition.
I just think that there is way more work behind performances that people think ... no less, no more. And coming from a fellow skater, it just struck me as a bit strange but I am quite ready to read it (as @RoseRed mentioned) a compliment first from Charlie and then from Katsalapov.
 

barbarafan

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Why? It's a compliment, no? I took that to mean they were so naturally talented and good, it's like they almost didn't need to train.

A very nice and classy thing to say about your competition.
When they first went to Marina's they really pushed themselves from dawn to dusk. It was too much for Tessa's physical makeup and she got compartement syndrome. She was in terrible pain and they cut back on training as it was impossible for her to train as much as they liked. After two big operations she was much better but they totally had to revamp their training using different muscles and diff. ways of doing things and they were seeing specialists for it.
 

suki

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Looking the full quote, I would read that as Charlie saying that they were more naturally talented than him, and that he caught up due to tons of hard work in combo with Tessa's injuries preventing them from training so much. Of course, this is a translation of Nikita repeating something Charlie said, so I don't know if that's actually what Charlie thinks, but it's what Nikita seems to be saying here.
I agree. Meryl and Charlie have always been complementary of Tessa and Scott. They have even said that training next to them helped them to be become skaters.
 

aftershocks

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^^ That's a nice compliment from Meryl and Charlie, but as far as becoming skaters, I believe D/W had to have their own talent and drive too. I've also heard Tessa and Scott return the compliment in speaking highly of D/W regarding how much they admire D/W's technical skills and work ethic.

Below is a quote by Zach Donahue in a recent Skating article posted on U.S. figure skating fan zone site, discussing the Gadbois training environment, etc:

Q: Some people might say the Gadbois school is taking on too much.

Donohue: I think it's very easy to jump to that conclusion when you've seen it happen in every other camp. But I've actually had the opportunity to be at every other camp, and now that I'm with Marie and Patch -- even watching how they managed the three top teams going into the (Olympics) -- it is unlike anything I had ever experienced with a coaching team. They care more about you and your individual goal, and they take the time to prioritize that. They found success because they're not after success. Patch will tell you himself, he never wanted a school, he started off small and it just kind of happened, and now that they have this very successful thing that they're passionate about and love, and it shows in the success that they're having from the highest to the lowest levels of their students. Honestly, I can't think of much they couldn't handle...They're always looking for ways of improving the system and having help.
 
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starrynight

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Thanks @aftershocks - an interesting perspective from Zach. I'm sure though he is buoyed by being the number 2 ice dance team out of 18 at present.

Brian Orser also touched on this in a recent interview. He said:

Yeah, you must have a lot of people asking to join your group. How do you decide whom to take in, what are you looking for in a new student?
First of all, I have to make sure I have space. I teach different than they teach in Europe. In Europe you have groups, usually a group of 8, or 10. And in North America you teach just one-on-one. So I have a skater for 30 minutes or maybe an hour, then another for an hour/30 minutes – depends on what they need.
If I have, let’s say, 5 sessions a day – that’s basically 7 or 8 skaters. So if nobody leaves this means I can’t take anybody. Because I wanna make sure I have enough time for each of these athletes. I have to be available for them.
As there are so many teams at Gadbois and I believe 3 different ice surfaces they train on, I would imagine each team could not get individual time with Marie-France and Patrice daily? Or maybe that is not how the training works? By comparison to Brian Orser's system, I've read that in Eteri Tutberidze's group at Sambo 70 there are no one-on-one lessons and everyone trains in a big group with the coaches generally watching everyone at once.
 

RoseRed

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As there are so many teams at Gadbois and I believe 3 different ice surfaces they train on, I would imagine each team could not get individual time with Marie-France and Patrice daily? Or maybe that is not how the training works? By comparison to Brian Orser's system, I've read that in Eteri Tutberidze's group at Sambo 70 there are no one-on-one lessons and everyone trains in a big group with the coaches generally watching everyone at once.
I don't know exactly what they do at Gadbois - although I remember that everything is scheduled down to 15 min periods by Patrice for who's working on what when. I do know that they have at least 6 on-ice coaches (Marie-France, Patrice, Romain, Pascal Denis, Benjamin Brisebois, and Josée Piché) plus others like Sam Chouinard and Ginette Cournoyer who do dance training and sometimes contribute to choreo + work on the ice, and Catherine Pinard who does acting training. So lots of coaches available to work with each team.
 

Dobre

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Thought I would try asking this question one more time. Can someone explain how Popova & Mozgov earned a level 2 at Golden Spin on the first half of their pattern without any Ys? The protocol marking is:

1TR2+***

Per the small font below, * stands for "invalid element."

Video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBBkUcpg4RM

Pattern starts at the 40 second mark. He does a deep squat at one point, which I initially assumed was the problem but it is a ways into the pattern so I'm not sure if it is what led to no Y's or N's. (Maybe there's just a mistake in the way the protocol was marked? I mean, how can you have either an invalid element or three invalid keypoints and get a level 2?)
 

suki

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^^ That's a nice compliment from Meryl and Charlie, but as far as becoming skaters, I believe D/W had to have their own talent and drive too. I've also heard Tessa and Scott return the compliment in speaking highly of D/W regarding how much they admire D/W's technical skills and work ethic.

Doh! This is what happens when you don't reread your own comments. I forgot to add the word "better" skaters. I absolutely agree with you aftershocks. I love D/W. They are such engaging performers and outstanding representatives for both the sport and the country. I miss the excitement they brought to the ice. I couldn't watch their FD at Sochi, I was so nervous. When someone posted in the D/W discussion thread that they had won the gold, I was fist pumping like an idiot. I still have the pages announcing their gold along with my most beloved skating memorabilia, which extends all the back to Peggy Fleming.
 
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