The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

Tak

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^^^
It is pretty amazing considering at this point last season they were perceived to be sinking fast and were very close to possibly being surpassed by Z/G (only prevented from being official by their withdrawal from nats.) in the hierarchy. A season later they're national champions and stand a good chance at standing on a world podium! Pretty amazing how fast things can change :respec:
Some of us always saw their potential. :rockstar:
 

NAOTMAA

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She was gushing over Nikita :rofl: : he has always been an outstanding skater, but used to have mental problems in the past, they mahaged to fix this problem with Zhulin.
- Also said that Zhulib laid down his life for Nikita, he had to be so patient..
- "They executed this program beautifully, it was a birth.. a birth of a star.. "
- "we have to teams who can fight [for medals?], but today THEY skated like they can actually win and fight! Let them fight for the gold, for the silver [on international level]"
- "there was so much love, so much sadness, so much tragedy in that dance..."
- "Nikita is a skating genius, he has always been, he was born like this, he can do so much, but he couldn't put things together "
- "Vika has learnt so much, I would have never guessed that she will be able to do it. She now has very clean and soft legs, she can be so different now"
- "Zhulin put up with him for so long.. Zhulin and Vodorezova (Buyanova) they both were so patient"


She was in a great mood after Kovtun's LP :D
she most certainly was :cool:

http://freegifmaker.me/images/2dQEZ/

:rofl:
 

Ka3sha

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Russian Fed announced team for Europeans: Sinitsina/Katsalapov, Stepanova/Bukin, Evdokimova/Bazin
(subs: Popova/Mozgov, Skoptsova/Aleshin, Zahorski/Guerreiro)
 
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Sylvia

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Not sure where this news would go but I'm so happy for them. Coomes and Buckland are engaged.:cheer2:😍
Thanks and congrats to them! A GSD thread has since been started: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/penny-coomes-and-nicholas-buckland-are-engaged.105017/

Re-posting from the U.S. Dance thread re. Chock/Bates' upcoming season debut at Mentor Torun Cup (Jan. 11-12 in Poland):
Chock & Bates' strongest competition at Mentor Torun Cup are Betina Popova & Sergey Mozgov, who recently placed fourth at Russian Nationals. They are much improved since moving to Anjelika Krylova. Montreal training mates Shiyue Wang & Xinyu Liu (CHN) are also competing. The event is January 8-12. Check out the entire entry list at mentorcup.pl.
Current Senior entries are:
1 India NETTE / Eron WESTWOOD AUS (aiming to get the minimums for 4CC)
2 Anna KUBLIKOVA / Yuri HULITSKI BLR
3 Teodora MARKOVA / Simon DAZE BUL
4 SHIYUE WANG / XINYU LIU CHN
5 HONG CHEN / ZHUOMING SUN CHN
6 WANQI NING / CHAO WANG CHN
7 Katerina BUNINA / German FROLOV EST
8 JULIA WAGRET / PIERRE SOUQUET FRA
9 ADELINE GALYEVIEVA / LOUIS THAURON FRA
10 Emily MONAGHAN / Ilias FOURATI HUN
11 Steffi VALERSI / Aleksandr VASILETS ITA
12 Kaliszek NATALIA / Spodyriev MAKSYM POL
13 BETINA POPOVA / SERGEY MOZGOV RUS
14 Victoria MANNI / Carlo RöTHLISBERGER SUI
15 Yulia ZHATA / Yan LUKOUSKI UKR
16 Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES USA
Kaliszek & Spodyriev have the highest SB (granted Tallinn scores were super high and not really comparable). Popova & Mozgov have been having a tough season, actually. Very rough at Golden Spin, but they skated better at Nationals. I think Tanith said that Krylova is having them relearn their technique, which has likely been a big challenge. Should be an interesting head to head with K&S, P&M, and W&L.
 

starrynight

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Papadakis/Cizeron have provided their view on the Tango Romantica levels debacle: Article Link translation below:

AOI : Why is it so difficult to get high levels in this sequence of Romantic Tango ? We have seen many levels and levels again. 1.

Gabriella : I do not know, this year the judges are very strict ... We say that for us it is very hard because the idea with which this dance was created is very different from what we are asked to do today . Many of the steps and movements of arms and even the musical times that are required are almost illogical! So that's why it's very difficult to make everything work in order to get the key points. It's always like that, but this year in particular!

Guillaume : The dance was not designed to have key points! I think the same Torvill and Dean, or skaters of that caliber, if they skated these RD as they skated in their day would never take the key points!


-- I kind of wonder that at this stage of the season (with only Euros/4CC and Worlds to go) whether teams will just be hoping to get through the rhythm dance on GOE alone. (Like Hubbell/Donohue's GPF strategy of not worrying about levels and concentrating on GOE) Sounds like the tango romantica may be chalked up to a lost cause and the levels aren't worth enough to panic over anyway.

What they say about previous teams not doing the key points as we know them this season is true - that wasn't the way the compulsories used to be judged (no team had to get the rocker lol). Although it's impossible to know what those teams could have done had they been trained in and required to conform with the modern ice dance structure.
 
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marbri

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I think we can't forget that even the ice dance tech committee didn't want some things to count in this dance until people like Barbara and Fabian stood up and started complaining. They knew it was going to be really hard for even the best teams to get the key points.
 

starrynight

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I think we can't forget that even the ice dance tech committee didn't want some things to count in this dance until people like Barbara and Fabian stood up and started complaining. They knew it was going to be really hard for even the best teams to get the key points.
I found the discussion again from the technical committee meeting. It's super interesting to go back and listen

The discussion about the pattern starts here: https://youtu.be/E7tYDftWFGg?t=8564

As Fabian said of removing the rocker as a key point: 'Are we trying to go for excellency or are we trying to level down everybody?'

A member of the committee says 'It's very difficult to define tango romantica in some steps. It's written one way but we do something else'.

Then this question: "I want to know, how important is it to keep the pattern of the dance?'. Answer: 'Well, this is important for the judges in a way because as much as the pattern is correct should go in the GOE of the judges'. (LOL that's not true)

Here: the committee chuckling amongst themselves as to whether it would be possible to do the rocker https://youtu.be/E7tYDftWFGg?t=8865

Fabian had a good quote here:

'If some of the coaches are thinking it's possible to do the rocker and some coaches are thinking it is not, well that's the point of doing sports. Some people are going to be able to do it, some people are not going to be able to do it. But not giving the rocker a key point is not going to give the opportunity to the people who are going to be able to do it, to show that they have more skills. So for me [not including the rocker] is just like dragging down everybody else'.

At the end of the day, this season and the challenging tango romantica has been very interesting for ice dance. Just seeing who can cope with the pattern and who can't. (Which is in fact not many teams at all).

It seems the politk argument is that a team can't keep the character of the dance and do the levels, so the levels shouldn't matter. That seems to be the Gadbois strategy at the moment and it seems to be working for them.

I'm very much predicting that whatever happens with the levels for the self created patterns next season is going to massively dumbed down, because the technical committee were proven right that teams couldn't do this pattern.
 
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Bigbird

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Gui Cizeron is right. The tango and this compulsory dance are completely disconnected and these judges don't have a clue what they're really doing. These people have absolutely no sense of actual rhythm otherwise the key points wouldn't be structured as they are. Period! They need to find a new way to judge this so called dance.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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I've suspected for a long time that these dances were not created to be judged in a keypoint fashion. Funny enough though is that Gadbois knew with the increased GOEs that one should really perform the dances (almost old school with the way ice dance teams of the past did them) and that the GOEs will make up for any loss of level which is only 0.5 differential from one level to the next. This is closer to how I thought these dances should be judged really (as a whole rather than a few steps determining the rankings), but ironically for me, the level 1 and basic calls still getting +3s-+5s doesn't set right with me either. Some times fans don't know what they really want.

Back in the old +3 system with teams close in rank, a level 2 could kill your chances to make the final group and maybe to medal in the SD, but now if you perform the dance with character and you look good doing it (rather than struggling to try to hit the right edge) then the GOEs can make up the difference. We'll see what happens to other Gadbois teams when there are non-Gadbois teams who can get similar GOE and PCS but hit their key points. We kind of saw what happened among the two Spanish teams. A lot of the top teams from last season did not compete in the GP series, and if/when they come back, we'll see if that strategy will work out in the long-run. They could also struggle with the levels as well.
 

RoseRed

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Papadakis/Cizeron have provided their view on the Tango Romantica levels debacle: Article Link translation below:

AOI : Why is it so difficult to get high levels in this sequence of Romantic Tango ? We have seen many levels and levels again. 1.

Gabriella : I do not know, this year the judges are very strict ... We say that for us it is very hard because the idea with which this dance was created is very different from what we are asked to do today . Many of the steps and movements of arms and even the musical times that are required are almost illogical! So that's why it's very difficult to make everything work in order to get the key points. It's always like that, but this year in particular!

Guillaume : The dance was not designed to have key points! I think the same Torvill and Dean, or skaters of that caliber, if they skated these RD as they skated in their day would never take the key points!


-- I kind of wonder that at this stage of the season (with only Euros/4CC and Worlds to go) whether teams will just be hoping to get through the rhythm dance on GOE alone. (Like Hubbell/Donohue's GPF strategy of not worrying about levels and concentrating on GOE) Sounds like the tango romantica may be chalked up to a lost cause and the levels aren't worth enough to panic over anyway.

What they say about previous teams not doing the key points as we know them this season is true - that wasn't the way the compulsories used to be judged (no team had to get the rocker lol). Although it's impossible to know what those teams could have done had they been trained in and required to conform with the modern ice dance structure.
The top three in the CD at the 2010 Olympics were all fantastic, and their Tango Romantica's were superior to everything we've seen this season (imo of course). But they weren't being judged by key points. It was more about the overall execution, right? So maybe he's right. I wonder if any of those teams got the keypoints in those performances.
 

Fizz

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The top three in the CD at the 2010 Olympics were all fantastic, and their Tango Romantica's were superior to everything we've seen this season (imo of course). But they weren't being judged by key points. It was more about the overall execution, right? So maybe he's right. I wonder if any of those teams got the keypoints in those performances.
I’ve tried to check the key points of the Vancouver compulsories (though it’s a bit difficult with the camera work) and really, most teams would get the last key point in the second section at best. Nobody even attempts the correct entry edge on the rocker except Oksana Domnina. V/M’s rockers were completely flat, and I think D/W’s Tango Romantica was a bit of an overscored mess all round. The 2010 teams skate in closer hold and have better lines and ice coverage and character but they’re also not trying to be as precise.
 
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Dobre

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It seems to me that Guignard & Fabbri and Sinitsina & Katsalapov's tangos are both in character and hitting most of the keypoints. I think other teams--like Hurtado & Khaliavin/McNamara & Carpenter/Stepanova & Bukin/Hubbell & Donohue/Weaver & Poje/Chock & Bates--are fully capable of doing so too, and that the performance aspect of RDs with strong keypoints are likely to be better performed as we hit the second part of the season. Maybe not every keypoint, but most. (It should be noted that many of the very top teams didn't get every keypoint back in 2012 either). It is always common to see teams performing more full out as they gain security in their technique and the season goes along.

I don't see why Gadbois shouldn't expect their teams to hit those keypoints. Everything we have seen from their top teams in the past says that those teams should be able to perform both the technique and the artistry at the same time. (They have a lot of lower and mid-level teams that could be expected to struggle, but their top teams should be as capable as G&F and S&K of executing both). I mean, it's nice that Smart & Diaz and Hawayek & Baker have a good tango feel in their programs; but ultimately you should be doing both. (And should be rewarded for doing both).

It seems the politk argument is that a team can't keep the character of the dance and do the levels, so the levels shouldn't matter. That seems to be the Gadbois strategy at the moment and it seems to be working for them.
See above. Plus this strategy didn't work for Smart & Diaz at Nationals. They lost over 2 points on the pattern to Hurtado & Khaliavin. (S&D have a very well choreographed tango; but without the levels, they aren't maximizing the advantage).

Then this question: "I want to know, how important is it to keep the pattern of the dance?'.

Answer: 'Well, this is important for the judges in a way because as much as the pattern is correct should go in the GOE of the judges'.
That is interesting. So that's at least two places (along with the 100% correct edges and steps thing in the GOE description) where we have heard that GOE should be taking in the correct execution of the pattern. So what needs to happen for this to be reflected in the marks? I'd like to see it reflect the performance on the day (thereby reflecting improvement for teams that do improve their patterns by season's end), and it seems like for that to happen, there needs to be some form of communication between the technical panel's final call on the levels and the judges.

I think we can't forget that even the ice dance tech committee didn't want some things to count in this dance until people like Barbara and Fabian stood up and started complaining. They knew it was going to be really hard for even the best teams to get the key points.
Did you have a reason for mentioning Barbara? The posts I read at the time said it was Fabian and Shpilband who wanted the rocker included.
 
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GreenGan

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Did you have a reason for mentioning Barbara? The posts I read at the time said it was Fabian and Shpilband who wanted the rocker included.
If I remember the video well, Barbara started the topic and then Fabian got back to it. He was the more adamant about it, but she was part of the coach that raised their hands when the comitee asked who in the room agreed with Fabian.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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Miraculously at Worlds all of a sudden every top team gets level 4 on their patterns - it seems to happen every year!
I remember thinking everyone got all of their levels at the 2016 Worlds SD, but when I checked again, I was wrong. Only Papadakis/Cizeron, the Shibs, Gilles/Poirier, and Coomes/Buckland hit all of their levels.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/wc2016/wc2016_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf

It seemed like everyone got all level 4s for the FD though, but looking at it, it was Papadakis/Cizeron, the Shibs, Chock/Bates, Cappellini/Lanotte, Hubbell/Donohue, Coomes/Buckland, and Guignard/Fabbri. Noticeably, Weaver/Poje and Gilles/Poirier did not.

At 2017 Worlds, only V/M got all level 4s in the SD (but as Dobre below said, most teams hit the extremely abbreviated midnight blues pattern, it was the partial step and SBS that did them in) and nobody in the FD got all level 4s.

I remember 2012 Worlds, the first Worlds where they used the keypoints system, nobody hit all of their rhumba patterns except for Pechelat/Bourzat, Hubbell/Donohue , and Zhiganshina/Gazsi. Some seemingly random teams hit at least one with a level 4: Reed/Reed, Alessandri/Vaturi, Coomes/Buckland, Ilinykh/Katsalapov, and Weaver/Poje.

Interesting to note that EVERY team outside of Virtue/Moir's level 3 rhumbas got negative GOEs by at least one judge and almost all of them had a negative GOE or enough to get base value for the pattern overall, including the teams that got level 4s for both rhumba patterns. I think W/P got enough to get positive GOEs overall but there were some minuses among the judges.

Compare and contrast the protocols six seasons later with ONE rhumba pattern, not just levels but GOE.
 
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Dobre

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Miraculously at Worlds all of a sudden every top team gets level 4 on their patterns - it seems to happen every year!
Papadakis & Cizeron had a level 3 on their pattern at Worlds last year. Chock & Bates had a level 3 on the pattern at Worlds in 2016. Papadakis & Cizeron and Weaver & Poje both had a level 2 on the pattern at the 2015 Worlds. Cappellini & Lanotte and Pechalat & Bourzat both had a level 2 on the pattern while Weaver & Poje had two level 3s on the pattern at Worlds in 2014. (I only looked up the medalists. Obviously some top teams off the podium also had issues. Most top teams did get level 4 in 2017, but the pattern was quite abbreviated that season).
 
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VIETgrlTerifa

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Papadakis & Cizeron had a level 3 on their pattern at Worlds last year. Chock & Bates had a level 3 on the pattern at Worlds in 2016. Cappellini & Lanotte and Pechalat & Bourzat both had a level 2 on the pattern while Weaver & Poje had two level 3s on the pattern at Worlds in 2015. (I only looked up the medalists. Obviously some top teams off the podium also had issues. Most top teams did get level 4 in 2017, but the pattern was quite abbreviated that season).
Yep. It was the partial step that did most of those teams in at the 2017 Worlds SD. Isn't that is what essentially replacing a pattern next season?
 

Bigbird

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While as a whole S/K and G/F are hitting the key points, their patterns are almost generic looking, IMHO. It's really hard to tell artistic people that their is only one way to interpret a dance. We wouldn't get the sultriness and sophistication of P/C or the stylings of H/D or H/B. I mean what should count if this is a rhythm dance is how does the pattern fit into the mood of dance presented as well as the theme chosen. Or better yet have them create new patterns for select themes each year and mark them on technical prowess, interpretation, originality etc. But as it is it must be frustrating for very expressive teams.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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They're already doing that. The partial step sequences started last Olympic cycle was a way for teams these days to create new patterns set to select rhythms. It wasn't here this season, but it'll be back without the pattern dance next season. And with the way H/D and P/C have been rewarded (P/C did hit one level 4 at TdF), it's clear that artistry certainly matters in GOE and PCS...some say a bit too much as missed levels don't seem to affect the scores too much (what's 0.5-1.5 when your GOE and PCS is like sky high over your competitors (at least when GOEs were just in the 3 range and PCS was kept closer together, those level calls made a difference and helped teams NOT in favor gain traction and build up favor).
 

Bigbird

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They're already doing that. The partial step sequences started last Olympic cycle was a way for teams these days to create new patterns set to select rhythms. It wasn't here this season, but it'll be back without the pattern dance next season. And with the way H/D and P/C have been rewarded (P/C did hit one level 4 at TdF), it's clear that artistry certainly matters in GOE and PCS...some say a bit too much as missed levels don't seem to affect the scores too much (what's 0.5-1.5 when your GOE and PCS is like sky high over your competitors (at least when GOEs were just in the 3 range and PCS was kept closer together, those level calls made a difference and helped teams NOT in favor gain traction and build up favor).
Thank you for this. I hope we see some great originality next season. :) And teams being rewarded for it.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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I don't want them to get rid of the pattern dances though. It differentiates the adults from the children and rewards the real technicians. I don't want that to go away nor do I want teams to be able to hide their lack of technical precision with artistic flourishes that bamboozle the judges. It's one of the few objective measures ice dance has even if I question how objective level calling actually is in ice dance as many ice dancers get confused why certain levels are achieved and why certain levels are not from competition-to-competition. I think there's a better way to be able to reward it all, but don't ask me because I don't have the answer.
 

starrynight

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Yep. It was the partial step that did most of those teams in at the 2017 Worlds SD. Isn't that is what essentially replacing a pattern next season?
I am intrigued to see what this 'Pattern Dance Type Step Sequence' will actually be.

Will it be like the one foot step sequence where they have certain turns they have to complete? I'm interested to see to what extent this will make the RD more like a mini FD.

Thank you for this. I hope we see some great originality next season. :) And teams being rewarded for it.
It'll be interesting to see who comes up with the best 'Pattern Dance Type Step Sequence'. Some coaches are going to have a heck of a time choreographing a new one for each team and being fair in terms of which teams get the best ones.

We may have a situation like how Papadakis/Cizeron and Hawayek/Baker have the same one foot step sequence this season. There just runs out of time and options for teams.

A good opportunity for a coach and a team to make a reputation for themselves because I suspect they will be using this to create a new compulsory pattern dance.

I mean fancy if a team invented something of the magnitude of say a Finnstep??? lol and then imagine if a coach gave this pattern to only one team in a coaching group and the others got just a random bunch of boring turns and steps? That would be controversial.

With the GOE I honestly think that if a team hit on something like a new Finnstep or Yankee Polka then the judges would make sure they good very good scores.

Teams that can afford to pay top dollar for the best choreography will be at an advantage.

The choreographers are really going to have to up their game next season, because most step sequences you see are (in my opinion) choreographically not that remarkable. The ones that became famous as compulsory dances are really really special because of how recognisable and different they are.

The choreographers are going to have to come up with something that will replace a pattern dance in the RD and I am interested to see what happens. I do suspect that the best most unique pattern dances may come from a team we least suspect. Probably a lower ranked team with less to lose and more incentives to take risks.

I also think that next season is going to be incredibly controversial. The advantage of the set pattern is that you get to compare apples with apples. It doesn't matter if the pattern conforms to each team's own individual feel and strengths - everyone has to do it. But next year, I think a lot of teams are going to be accused of 'hacking the system' by doing pattern dances that are easier to others. Perhaps we will see teams that struggled to get levels this season start getting level 4s next season when they can choose their own pattern.
 

chameleonster

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I mean the rules may be tweaked again next season, but we've basically already had this before. Gilles/Poirier created the Maple Leaf March from their 2015/16 SD, and next season the juniors will be debuting the brand new Tea Time Foxtrot, created from Kaliszek/Spodiriev's SD from the same season.

I've heard a lot that the compulsories were not meant to be skated in a way that best allows teams to hit their keypoints, and I am curious to see if the new patterns are better suited to the key point system.
 

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