The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

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Enchanted

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Part of me sees her point, and sympathizes. But another part of me is wondering, you really need to be told that a stationary lift should be stationary? :shuffle: I like this team a lot, but in this case I think they need to just accept that they made a mistake and focus on fixing it.
IMO this is the way they always speak. I have to say Donohue sounds rather delusional in this interview. He really reminds me of Katsalapov in the way he behaves and this is not a compliment.

“We have fantastic programs, if not the best in the world,” said Donohue. “There’s no need to go back and change anything. The only thing is going back and double-checking what we already know. Just making sure there’s not even an ounce of question in anyone’s mind that’s watching. And otherwise continue.”
 
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Dobre

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For anyone without access to the Kiss & Cry, the entry list for Junior Worlds is up:
http://www.isuresults.com/events/cat03109139.htm

Nice for Lopareva getting a chance to compete there. I found a copy of Lopareva & Brissaud's FD from the Egna Dance Trophy on youtube today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9JD5RS21Dw

Has anyone seen a video link to their RD from any time this season?

As always, I think there's room for unpredictability at Junior Worlds, especially when you look at the top ten as a whole. Some top team pretty much always mucks up. The Greens haven't gone up against anyone at the top yet this season except Nguyen & Kolesnik. (Also Gropman & Somerville and Demougeot & Le Mercier). It's a shame Ukraine can't send two teams as Golubtsova & Belobrov are quite decent. The situation for Ukraine in juniors is kind of similar to the Spanish senior teams in that you've got two teams pretty close to the top ten but with the top team just missing the top ten last season. Fabbri & Ayer have been developing throughout the season and look much more solid now. First Junior Worlds for them, Gropman & Somerville, and Khudaberdieva & Nazarov.

When will we find out the tech panel at worlds or has it already been announced?
Usually, we don't seem to get this information until the ISU starting order page gets published a couple days before the draw. I do remember that Molina announced very early in the season that he was going to call 2017 NHK.
 
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Doggygirl

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IMO this the way they always speak. I have to say Donohue sounds rather delusional in this interview. He really reminds me of Katsalapov in the way he behaves and this is not a compliment.
From the same article...

Hubbell and Donohue are secure that they have “the right recipe,” said Donohue, to dethrone defending world champions Gabriella Papadakis and Guillaume Cizeron of France. (emphasis mine)
Talk about tempting the skate gods...... I hope the writer twisted some words around and that Donohue didn't really say that....
 
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laviemn

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I was going to put that but it felt a little contentious. For me, subjectively, I felt very frustrated by the Canadian/American commentary of that era which sort of felt like "the only way to prove the sport is fair is for us to win" at times, so that the teams I liked, which were generally Russian/French felt sort of like even when they won, they didn't win - if they won, they were attacked so there was no pleasure in it. It almost felt like blackmail to me, like "we must win or we will savage you verbally." Perhaps that will sound extreme to some of you but that was genuinely how it felt to me. Whether that was fair on my part or not, it certainly didn't make the sport very fun to watch.
I felt the same, and for me the distaste for US/Canadian commentary lasted well into the 2000s. There were times the commentary even crossed the line into xenophobia. It spoiled the experience so much that I was downloading British Eurosport or Russian broadcasts (which I didn't understand but at least they were silent during the skates) on a very inadequate internet connection.

I'm grateful that Tanith, Ben, and Charlie have turned out to be not only competent but self-aware and unbiased. I mean, Charlie is like Stepanova/Bukin's biggest fan after TAT. It's a world of difference from 10 years ago.
 

Debbie S

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IMO this is the way they always speak. I have to say Donohue sounds rather delusional in this interview. He really reminds me of Katsalapov in the way he behaves and this is not a compliment.
Talk about tempting the skate gods...... I hope the writer twisted some words around and that Donohue didn't really say that...
This is the same Zach who said at the start of last season that he wouldn't go up on the podium at Nats to accept another bronze medal. And on Sunday, while waiting for their scores in K&C, said, "Just give us the 5s" (uh, no, the panel isn't reviewing the elements to see how much GOE to give you). I have no difficulty believing he said what is quoted. I don't have a problem with skaters being confident and talking about how they want to win - they all want to win or they wouldn't be doing this - and with H/D, the media/broadcasters have stoked that somewhat, talking about their world silver last year and how they hope to 'climb the next step', so to speak. But there's a difference between being confident and sounding like sour grapes/not owning up to your mistakes (or the fact that your competitors performed better).

On a different note, this bit from the article was interesting:
On that fateful stationary lift, Hubbell and Donohue received only the minimum base value of 1.00, plus .62 for grade of execution. In contrast, Chock and Bates had a base value of 5.30 and a grade of execution of 1.42 for a total of 6.73 on their stationary lift.
That would be news to C/B, since they don't have a stationary lift. The writer is presumably talking about the straight-line lift...oh well, at least the writer tried to read the protocols. :lol:
 

sharsk8s

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Madi said that 4cc was a "wake-up call that we’re not untouchable". I genuinely like Madi because she seems more down to earth and better articulated than Zach (not to mention her relationship with other skaters is really cute), but I don't understand how they have ever felt untouchable. They already had S/K nipping at their heels during the GP season and then C/B at US nats. Not to mention they must have seen P/C scores this whole season in addition to the high scores S/B posted at euros. I don't know how in the world they ever thought they were untouchable.
 

bcash

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Part of me sees her point, and sympathizes. But another part of me is wondering, you really need to be told that a stationary lift should be stationary? :shuffle: I like this team a lot, but in this case I think they need to just accept that they made a mistake and focus on fixing it.
I rewatched their FD at 4CC. They really didn't look like they traveled an punishable amount in real time. So I get why she felt it was a bit of an ambush.
 

wickedwitch

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IMO this is the way they always speak. I have to say Donohue sounds rather delusional in this interview. He really reminds me of Katsalapov in the way he behaves and this is not a compliment.
I generally give athletes as pass on statements that seem overconfident, because a certainly level of overconfidence is needed to move up in sports. But Zach's quotes come off like he has no grip on reality.
 

Dobre

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I fear that Zach missed out on the early talk-to-the-media training that many of the U.S. dance team members had during the developmental stage of their careers. Perhaps this is like flexibility and needs to be drilled into one's body/personality at an early age.
 

Doggygirl

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I rewatched their FD at 4CC. They really didn't look like they traveled an punishable amount in real time. So I get why she felt it was a bit of an ambush.
Actually, it was very easy to see the significant travel as it happened directly on top of the word "Continents" in the 4CC logo. The lift traveled half way across that word.
 

Tak

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Which is a point because top teams in the past have been given that protection as a courtesy. And given the opportunity to change an element before the competition (although often at the total last minute).

.
From other comments Ive read in the past, judges don't come up to you and automatically give you a critique [ - well your own country's judge might I guess -], but your coach has the right to ask any or all of the panel for some feedback after a competition. If they received no feedback, maybe it's because the coaches didn't ask for any.
 
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starrynight

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I was going to put that but it felt a little contentious. For me, subjectively, I felt very frustrated by the Canadian/American commentary of that era which sort of felt like "the only way to prove the sport is fair is for us to win" at times, so that the teams I liked, which were generally Russian/French felt sort of like even when they won, they didn't win - if they won, they were attacked so there was no pleasure in it. It almost felt like blackmail to me, like "we must win or we will savage you verbally." Perhaps that will sound extreme to some of you but that was genuinely how it felt to me. Whether that was fair on my part or not, it certainly didn't make the sport very fun to watch.
I can imagine the era of ice dance before individually scored elements must have been hard. I just still don’t understand how the 6.0 system would have worked.

I confess I am bothered by the idea that a skater/team would EXPECT to be given tech panel or judge critique based on competition practices. What? I'm not suprised to hear this is done - it's figure skating after all! [/sarcasm] I would hope that if critiques are being done, they are being done equally for all teams. But I'm pretty sure THAT is not happening!

Sometimes it really is better as a no-tek fan not to know this stuff..... :wuzrobbed

It seems to me like Hub/Don have probably been aware of some risk with this element. Risk does not always net a reward.
I can imagine that there is a heirarchy of teams who would be notified.

From other comments Ive read in the past, judges don't come up to you and automatically give you a critique [ - well your own country's judge might I guess -], but your coach has the right to ask any or all of the panel for some feedback after a competition. If they received no feedback, it's because the coaches didn't ask for any.
Interesting. Well maybe the specific examples I’ve heard have been as a result of Marina Zoueva/Igor etc being down politicking with the judges and being told things?

Madi said that 4cc was a "wake-up call that we’re not untouchable". I genuinely like Madi because she seems more down to earth and better articulated than Zach (not to mention her relationship with other skaters is really cute), but I don't understand how they have ever felt untouchable. They already had S/K nipping at their heels during the GP season and then C/B at US nats. Not to mention they must have seen P/C scores this whole season in addition to the high scores S/B posted at euros. I don't know how in the world they ever thought they were untouchable.
I think they might have felt the GOE they were being given was a good sign they were squarely in the judges’ good books (which they still are). It’s got to be a very good feeling when you are getting lower levels than everyone else and still beating the rest of the field handily.

Each quad there is always a big rivalry. So I’m certain a team or teams will eventually be elevated to the point where it won’t just be P/C shooting fish in a barrel each competition.

My impression is that had H/D been able to combine the momentum they had from last season with programs of the same hype as say Gilles/Poirier’s programs and hit some levels they could have been within a shot of winning Worlds.

But if they were to topple the World Champs they would need an exceptional program with enough hype and backing to make a case for beating P/C.

And coming up with the exceptional programs is not easy. It’s why we have maybe two a season which really stand out. Often coaches and skaters go into the process with all the right intentions, ready to work hard etc and things don’t always click.
 

Spun Silver

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I generally give athletes as pass on statements that seem overconfident, because a certainly level of overconfidence is needed to move up in sports. But Zach's quotes come off like he has no grip on reality.
To be fair I'm sure he was just kidding, and probably hiding some anxiety, when he said Just give us the 5s. Now his thinking their current programs are on a par with P/C or even better - whoa.
 

bcash

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Actually, it was very easy to see the significant travel as it happened directly on top of the word "Continents" in the 4CC logo. The lift traveled half way across that word.
I think in real time it was easy to overlook, hence the high GOEs and initial L4 call.
 

her grace

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This is the same Zach who said at the start of last season that he wouldn't go up on the podium at Nats to accept another bronze medal. And on Sunday, while waiting for their scores in K&C, said, "Just give us the 5s" . . .
And the same Zach who made unsporting remarks about the judging way back in 2009 when he and Gilles finished 4th at the JGP in Hungary. At the time, I was :eek: that a rising team didn't have the good sense not to badmouth the judges and that USFS's PR arm Ice Network actually printed the quotes in its review. Donohue's hubris has been around a long time.
 
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starrynight

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If we are just talking about programs themselves, I’d say the programs of Gilles/Poirier and Fear/Gibson are the ones to beat in terms of creating buzz and impact on the skating scene - if you are wanting to argue you have the best ‘programs’ in the world.

But that’s a different category to overall execution.
 
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bcash

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IMO this is the way they always speak. I have to say Donohue sounds rather delusional in this interview. He really reminds me of Katsalapov in the way he behaves and this is not a compliment.
This "we don't need to change anything" talk is a natural, preemptive response to the panicky, do we need to change things type of thinking after an unexpected loss. At this point in the season, it's the right strategy and the right mentality, given their winning streak this past few months. They certainly don't have a winning program. But It's harmless if they want to talk up their confidence. They are also, like, best friends with P/C, so I guess there's less inhibition in talking about competition.
 

AngieNikodinovLove

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If we are just talking about programs themselves, I’d say the programs of Gilles/Poirier and Fear/Gibson are the ones to beat in terms of creating buzz and impact on the skating scene - if you are wanting to argue you have the best ‘programs’ in the world. But that’s a different category to overall execution.

YASSSS!

And Manta & Johnson. I cant resist!!! :summer:
 

Dobre

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I've never thought hype was anyone's friend.

Having a great program, on the other hand, is worth a great deal; but it can only take you as far as it could go if you have the skills to back it up and you execute the material successfully when it matters. (Smart & Diaz's RD this season is a good example of this challenge, I think. Pechalat & Bourzat's City Lights. Brezina's The Way You Look Tonight. Etc). Sometimes we get all the way to the end of a season before most fans realize how awesome a program can be when performed clean. (Karen's On Golden Pond, for example).

I think it is nice that members of some technical committees are open to providing athletes with feedback on their material. It has to be so frustrating to read a protocol sheet and not know what is wrong. And I think it's both gutsy & wise to ask what has happened and how one might make corrections. (Probably complaining to the press about not being given said feedback is not particularly wise. I often wish athletes were not interviewed directly after a tough result).

I did always assume that communication came following a performance rather than prior to it. (Though I can see that logistically there is so much more time prior to an event than after). Anyway, the first time I had heard of feedback coming prior to an event was Tiffany's mom saying that Tiff had been given good feedback after her practice session at the GPF.

I would think that, of course, there would be some language barriers in gaining feedback; and that it probably is a very real advantage to have a coach that speaks more than one language and can obtain a greater range of communication. But I like to hear that athletes can obtain feedback. I mean, everyone wants to improve. And it makes so much more sense to talk to the actual technical experts rather than trying to sort through assumptions made by TV commentators or fans, for example.

And it's not like most things can be fixed lickety split. It's going to take time & effort in the long run. Changing something at the last minute rarely works. (I have vivid memories of a couple disastrous high bar routines from the U.S. men at the Olympics one year because they felt they had to change their routines after learning that said routines no longer fit the rules. Talk about way too last minute!)

But overall, personally, I would encourage more communication rather than less.
 

puglover

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Lots of things go into determining the final mark. That said, to "create a moment" is also very special. I agree with starrynight, those really special programs are not so easy to come by. Having had one, it is hard to follow.
 

RoseRed

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I remember Tessa and Scott talking about changing a lift last minute before Worlds one year because they'd heard that the tech panel thought it didn't fit the rules, even though they'd been fine with it all season, or something along those lines.
 

sharsk8s

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Yeah from my experience if the judges notice something in the choreography or the way that it is being performed that does not fit the rules they will usually try to give you a heads up and an opportunity to fix it beforehand. But like people said earlier although their lift may have traveled before, it may not have been to this extent. Plus, the judges might only just inform you when the choreography goes against the rule rather than you performing an element incorrectly. I think it just depends on the panel.
 

emilieh

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I actually saw the referee having a long chat with some of the Gadbois coaches in Anaheim, although it was earlier in the week, and I think it was after the RD practice.

It's also common for coaches to bring in judges for feedback sessions to training sessions at the home rink. Plus Champs Camp for Americans and Canada's High Performance Camp both have judges that attend, I think. So there's opportunities to get feedback outside of the competitions.
 

bcash

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My impression is that communications between judges who sit on international panels and top skaters from their own federations are quite frequent. I'm sure the reason H/D changed their program so much leading up to the GPF was because of private input from the judging panel.
 

Debbie S

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I actually saw the referee having a long chat with some of the Gadbois coaches in Anaheim, although it was earlier in the week, and I think it was after the RD practice.
My impression is that communications between judges who sit on international panels and top skaters from their own federations are quite frequent.
Yes. And the referee at 4CC was American. I don't see anything unusual about her having a convo with the coaches of the 3 USA teams.
 

barbarafan

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I remember Tessa and Scott talking about changing a lift last minute before Worlds one year because they'd heard that the tech panel thought it didn't fit the rules, even though they'd been fine with it all season, or something along those lines.
true ...it was the goose lift. When they first did it Tessa actually did a jump on the way down and although it was accepted all year a little bird told them they were going to be slammed at worlds so they changed the exit.
 

Andora

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true ...it was the goose lift. When they first did it Tessa actually did a jump on the way down and although it was accepted all year a little bird told them they were going to be slammed at worlds so they changed the exit.
Didn't they change it for the Olympics?
 
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