The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[manhn]

Is there a reason why the French and Canadian judges should not judge the FD? Just because they came in first and second in the SD? What if the US team was third, but only by a .04 points? That third place team gets quite the advantage.

 

[Twilight1]

"My politiks didn't beat your politiks" is the same crap from 4 years ago.

The clear bias is showing.

Some fans favourites didn't win so clearly the judging was biased.

Newsflash. Judging bias by one judge is hardly newsworthy when the block judging and overscoring in the SD paints an opposing picture.

Just like 2014... V&M lost gold there. P&C lost gold here.

Now please continue with how one judge skewed the results out of 9 judges.

 

[thvu]

I feel like there are two parallel arguments happening here. There are those of us who are simply criticizing the optics. Then there are those trying to make general arguments about bias. (Then of course, there are those trying to lump everyone together to fit their own narratives for the same old reasons.)

 

[VGThuy]

When three out of four disciplines have gold medal winners that won by fractions of a point more-or-less, then any change in the panel would definitely make a difference one way or the other (different winner vs. winning by a slightly bigger point spread). I think it is worth while to have discussions about panel make up and accurate GOE and PCS judging (and tech calling) when these results are really so close that these “little” decisions make all of the difference.

We all know ice dance was going to be close and I do think having the French judge in the FD could have made the difference. That said I also think this panel in the SD and FD was overall pro-P/C.

 

[BellaSTRARSSA!]

I feel like there are two parallel arguments happening here. There are those of us who are simply criticizing the optics. Then there are those trying to make general arguments about bias. (Then of course, there are those trying to lump everyone together to fit their own narratives for the same old reasons.)

I thought the main argument was against misleading journalism in figure skating from people who claim authority on the sport, since it was the ice network/buzzfeed links that started this whole conversation. When arguments between ice dance fans display more knowledge of and understanding of the nuances behind judging bias than one of the major media outlets for the sport, that is not a good look for figure skating period. Questioning a fed president's presence on the FD panel is fair. But any media outlet presenting that as the only example of judging bias here and ignoring the SD judging in their "recalculations" are misleading their readers to a specific conclusion.

 

[Twilight1]

Alina won because she did the best overall in the sp and lp.

Hanyu won because he did the best overall in the sp and lp.

S&M won because they did the best overall in the sp and lp...

and finally V&M won because they skated the best overall.

Setting it up so that the winner of the lp should win overall is selve serving and frankly sour grapes.

The skater who did the best in 2 programs should win imvho.

And if people want to nitpick about a judge in ice dance from Canada.. perhaps look at what the "one judge" enabled for P&C after they errored on twizzles and a lift from France in their short dance.

Fixating on one component of judging while dismissing clear bias in another area is self serving and laughable.

That some think P&C deserved to win overall after being blatantly held up in the short dance and whining about no French judge in the FD (despite a clear P&C preference with judges) is the same bitter bullshyte I read in 2014 when D&W won over V&M.

Ironically as much of a fan as I am of V&M, I stayed out of the frucus back then because I was legitimately fine with whoever won because both teams did very well.

I am not staying silent on this comp because P&C made very blatent errors and had a costume malfunction in their SD. Their FD is not so perfect as to make up those issues in the SD and it is definitely not astronomically better in composition to V&M to deserve to win overall.

 

[Anyasnake]

We're talking about a buzzfeed article, not about changing results at all... Nobody said V/M didn't deserve to win

 

[Dobre]

I do feel for Papadakis & Cizeron having to deal with the costume malfunction. (I, personally, prefer their SD to V&M's by quite a bit). What terrible timing! But to say it was all luck--I don't know that you can. The costume malfunction led to the errors we saw. But we didn't see a clean skate. And we don't know that they would have had a clean skate without the costume malfunction. Without the costume malfunction, they would still have been the team with less experience. And because of that the team more likely to struggle under pressure.

Would Savchenko & Massot have skated as lights out in the free if Bruno hadn't botched the jump in the SP? I don't know. I told myself the same thing with the Shibs after the mistake at U.S. Nationals. That maybe it was necessary in order for them to reach the end goal. That maybe going into the Olympics with that chasing mindset would make them stronger. And they were stronger at the Olympics.

P&C could have competed the SD in the team event. If they had, would they have experienced this costume problem there & not had it interrupt the individual? Impossible to know. It would, for sure, have been an opportunity for experience. I couldn't figure out why the NBC commentary kept implying that V&M were the favorites in the SD. They didn't win it in the last head-to-head. Would that conversation have changed if P&C had done the team event? Who knows? The competition played out the way it did. The errors in the SD didn't cost P&C much. Not as much as they could have. But they cost enough to lose the title. And that's the way it played out.

Last season, that didn't happen in the fight for the top. Overall, I would say this was a better reflection for the sport in front a much larger audience.

 

[clairecloutier]

"The errors in the SD didn't cost P&C much. Not as much as they should could have."

I have no problem with taking a close look at judges' scores. However, in my mind you cannot discuss any possible scoring advantage V/M might have had in the FD, with Caron on the panel and no French judge, without also discussing the advantage P/C got in the SD (with the overscoring of their PCS).

 

[Twilight1]

We're talking about a buzzfeed article, not about changing results at all... Nobody said V/M didn't deserve to win

But it certainly implies that national judging bias played a role in the outcome. I am more interested in the back scratching between countries between events.

Someone should study that, as that creates a block judging scenario which actually plays a bigger role in outcomes...

For example, China, Russia, US, Canada, Germany, France, Spain all had medal opportunity. Did any of them make block decisions with outlier countries who were more middle of the pack?

 

[DreamsofBliss]

"The errors in the SD didn't cost P&C much. Not as much as they should could have."

I have no problem with taking a close look at judges' scores. However, in my mind you cannot discuss any possible scoring advantage V/M might have had in the FD, with Caron on the panel and no French judge, without also discussing the advantage P/C got in the SD (with the overscoring of their PCS).

And then moving over to the panel there are the questionable level calls for VM in the SD as well. The tech panel also plays a role in scores and they were more generous with some teams than others that night.
It's interesting to think about a battle between the judges and tech panel as it sometimes seems to be.

 

[chantilly]

^ as far as I know, the only one who considered it questionable was Ben Agosto who then quickly mentioned that the camera angles may have told a different story.

 

[Dobre]

The tech panel also plays a role in scores and they were more generous with some teams than others that night.

Which leads us to . . .

Would someone like to tackle an analysis of Hurtado & Khaliavin's rhumba?

Did Ben go over it on Ice Time?

For some reason, my family's verification code never worked for the online NBC coverage so I haven't seen the post-competition analysis from that night. I'm quite fine with H&K's placement. But there was something awkward about that step. And you wouldn't think a team would have a prayer of a level four rhumba then. Was it just that the blade came down heavy on the correct edge? Or did the panel totally botch that?

(I'm not so fine with Muramoto & Reed's over 4 point deficit in PCS relative to their TES. They may not be as fast as some of the teams in the same ballpark, but that LP is a beautiful program).

 

[Zazy]

^ as far as I know, the only one who considered it questionable was Ben Agosto who then quickly mentioned that the camera angles may have told a different story.

The tech panel clearly decided to be generous, and wanted to give all level 4s to the top 2 teams (which is ridiculous, considering how they called the team event - a little consistency would be nice!) but, unlike the judges, they couldn't ignore a clear mistake in the partial sequence. If they had been more strict V/M may have lost a level on the rhumba but P/C could have lost quite a few additional levels. Ultimately we can't know for sure but P/C are the ones who struggle with levels in the SD, a generous panel is an advantage for them. I knew after last year, with V/M so far in front after the SD that they won overall, the ISU would want to make sure that didn't happen again, hence the predictably generous panel.

Everything was in place for P/C to win and a fluke costume malfunction happened. It's a terrible way to lose, I really feel for P/C and their fans but they got some extremely generous judging in the SD. I haven't seen that degree of pre-judging since probably Domnina/Shabalin in 2010. Judges need to score what happens on the ice, not what could have happened. In the end the podium was right but it's always discouraging to see just how much politics plays a role in ice dance scoring, especially in the Olympics. I know it probably won't happen but I'd like to see the judges picked by the ISU instead of federations, based on an analysis of previous performance. Leave enough room for difference of opinion but judges giving +3 to clearly flawed elements would be flagged.

 

[Katha]

I remember in 2015 and 2016, when P/C were dominating so...there were always grumblings about their SDs, which just weren't of the same quality as their great FDs. But they were capable of obliterating the field in the FD, so it kinda didn't matter. This aspect always seemed like a glaring vulnerability that the ice dance field at the time just wasn't capable of exploiting.

The moment V/M announced their return...well, that's not true. My first thought was: Will they get back in competitive shape? Since this seems to be something many skaters underestimate. But one of my first reactions was: "Oh cool, P/C will have to finally, finally up their SD game!" Yet...they IMO haven't done that enough. And this has cost them the WC last year and the Oly Gold. I agree that their scores in the Oly SD were too high, but even with all the judges' help...it wasn't enough.

V/M are capable of outskating them in SDs and then they also won't get trounced in the FD by large point margins, no matter how well P/C skate. And I kinda don't get it? Are they incapable of producing more convincing SD performances? Are they not that interested in that portion? Was it lack of experience?

I mean, V/M are gone now and perhaps P/C can just go back to doing great FDs and not caring about the SDs and it won't make a difference since they'll win anyway. But isn't it a risk? What if some new hot team comes along and starts challenging them?

ETA: Of course I don't literally mean that P/C don't care about SDs. There's IMO just always been an obvious imbalance in quality, comparing their SDs and FDs. And I thought V/M coming back might be a great motivating factor for them to really start focusing on that part of the competition and pushing for improvement. IMO this hasn't happened to the degree I hoped it would. And I just wonder...with V/M gone, will it ever happen?

 

[thvu]

V/M are capable of outskating them in SDs and then they also won't get trounced in the FD by large point margins, no matter how well P/C skate. And I kinda don't get it? Are they incapable of producing more convincing SD performances? Are they not that interested in that portion? Was it lack of experience?

I think their biggest hurdle was levels on the No Touching Steps. They were always going to be behind V&M until they could get their steps to be clean enough. The were having difficulties getting them to level 4, and clearly got over that this season. They were trouncing the field on the compulsory steps too, so I don't think there will be much of an issue for them in the SD in the future.

 

[Anyasnake]

I mean, V/M are gone now and perhaps P/C can just go back to doing great FDs and not caring about the SDs and it won't make a difference since they'll win anyway. But isn't it a risk? What if some new hot team comes along and starts challenging them?

Really ? Nobody is that reckless
Their 2014-2015 SD was really good. The Mozart FD was just outstanding. Plus they made mistakes at Worlds.
Their Waltz SD the next year was really great (and a bit unconventionnal), they happenned to have Build a Home the same year.
It's last year when they skated one clean SD only at GP France. They made a lot of mistakes and at that time you could dropped to level 2 on a sequence, the rule has changed and it's not the case anymore.
This year their SD was really well marked too, plus they have the advantage on the pattern.

 

[supergirl573]

I think their biggest hurdle was levels on the No Touching Steps. They were always going to be behind V&M until they could get their steps to be clean enough. The were having difficulties getting them to level 4, and clearly got over that this season. They were trouncing the field on the compulsory steps too, so I don't think there will be much of an issue for them in the SD in the future.

They were trouncing them in what they were scored, but that Ravensburger Waltz pattern was highly questionable. And also not done to the waltz music requirements.

 

[thvu]

They were trouncing them in what they were scored, but that Ravensburger Waltz pattern was highly questionable. And also not done to the waltz music requirements.

Most ISU officials will disagree with you on that one.

 

[MsZem]

V/M are capable of outskating them in SDs and then they also won't get trounced in the FD by large point margins, no matter how well P/C skate. And I kinda don't get it? Are they incapable of producing more convincing SD performances? Are they not that interested in that portion? Was it lack of experience?

There is absolutely no evidence that P/C don't care about SDs, as you suggest. WTF?

I agree with Anyasnake that P/C's SDs in 2015 and 2016 were actually quite good. You have to remember that they were still an up and coming team in 2015, and missed the first half of the 2015-16 season while Papadakis was recovering from her concussion. It's impressive that they were able to skate so well (and win the SD at Worlds) nonetheless.

Their FDs have indeed been very strong. It wasn't until the Olympics that V/M really showed that they could reach the kind of scores that P/C had been receiving for the past two seasons: before Pyeongchang, V/M's PB was just slightly ahead of what P/C got back in 2016, while their new FD best was around four points higher. That's quite a leap - and no, I'm not going to get into a discussion whether it was deserved, because I was flying over the Atlantic at the time and haven't bothered to watch it since.

 

[morqet]

I can't find the specific interview right now, but P/C have said in the past that they find compulsory dances boring, and the worst thing is that they still have to do it as part of the SD. (ETA: Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9V-pQ1zlro) Not that they don't care, but they definitely aren't as inspired by the format as they are by the FD.

They were told by the judges at Euros in 2016 that their music didn't have a defined enough 3/4 beat. They admitted later it was why they had a heavy synth beat added for Worlds. The sheet music for Charms has it as a 12/8 beat. They weren't the only team to get away with some questionable music choices that year (H/D were even worse offenders) but I have a problem with the judges didn't enforce the prescribed penalties when they were clearly ignoring the defined rhythm. The last time I remember a team getting dinged for ignoring the SD rhythms was A/U at Worlds in 2013. But to my mind, not skating to the specified beat for that year is the same as a singles skater not doing one of the required elements in the SP.

 

[MsZem]

Euros was P/C's first international competition in 2016. It's hardly unusual for skaters to receive and apply feedback throughout the season.

"Not as inspired by" is not the same as "don't care".

 

[morqet]

Euros was P/C's first international competition in 2016. It's hardly unusual for skaters to receive and apply feedback throughout the season.

But by not skating to music that was in 3/4, they were missing a basic requirement. Skaters that have done that before, have been given 0 for the pattern dance element. It is supposed to be treated the same as a skater doing only a solo double in the SP - it's an invalid element. The whole point is that you demonstrate your ability to skate those specific steps to a specific rhythm.

"Not as inspired by" is not the same as "don't care".

Congrats, that's exactly what I said.

 

[Anyasnake]

I can't find the specific interview right now, but P/C have said in the past that they find compulsory dances boring, and the worst thing is that they still have to do it as part of the SD. Not that they don't care, but they definitely aren't as inspired by the format as they are by the FD.

Yes, they did say that Compulsories are really boring. But when done on its own, like watching 25 teams doing compulsories in 2006 for example. They probably prefer the SD format, I guess.
They surely aren't uninspired by the SD, they've stated that they're having a lot of fun in those actually. They just have a clearer vision (or Marie-France and Romain have) for FDs, at least for now.

 

[MsZem]

Congrats, that's exactly what I said.

Clearly it needs to be reiterated for certain posters.

 

[Twilight1]

Personally I miss the CD's. You could very clearly compare teams edge for edge and see the actual quality of ice DANCERS.

 

[Anyasnake]

I'd love to see the CD's back too, but even this year in the Rumba because it's about edges, the difference between teams was something already, even if it was one section. I guess judges might have got bored to see 30 patterns in a row.

Next year, it's a much longer one. Which bring me to this : is there any elements that is going to be left off for the Tango SD ? Because the Pattern takes quite the time. Isn't that why they cut off the No-touch in the waltz SD in 2015-2016 ?

EDIT : Okay, I'm sorry for being the biggest figure skating geek, but I compared times.
Rumba Pattern = 18 seconds
Tango = 55 seconds

 

[Debbie S]

Next year, it's a much longer one. Which bring me to this : is there any elements that is going to be left off for the Tango SD ? Because the Pattern takes quite the time. Isn't that why they cut off the No-touch in the waltz SD in 2015-2016 ?

They might only use half the pattern...they did that with the Midnight Blues last year and then added the partial step seq. If they go with the full TR pattern, I would guess they'll eliminate the partial step.

I enjoyed watching the CDs once I understood the patterns and steps and what to look for, b/c I skate with some dancers, including adults, who were usually working on (or previously passed) the CDs being skated that year, so they could educate me on the pattern and common errors/pitfalls. Before I understood the finer points, I was bored.

 

[chantilly]

I think with the SD’s in general, PC simply had some rough outings in the last few years. Either they made errors, lost a lot of levels due to them, couldn’t get the levels or had to do a rhythm that didn’t play to their strengths. They also had a terrible injury to deal with.
This season the rhumba pattern is right up their alley. Their SD was really good this year compared to other seasons.
As for hating compulsory dances, they are certainly not the first team to say it. Scott said it too.
I do think their strengths, the big sweeping edges, flow, upper body movements can be a disadvantage in the SD’s sometimes. I think for example they’d struggle in a quick step.
I’m curious about the tango next season, as it usually has quick sharp movements. But if they do a tango romantica they should be fine.
I personally however want to see more growth from them next season. Different lifts, different type of movements. For whatever reason I have stuck in my head an African dance. Just based on the way they can utilize their upper bodies. Or something very modern. Although now I think of it, it probably suits H and D better.
I just really hope they take a risk next year.
Based on their scores, they have nothing to lose.

 

[Anyasnake]

They might only use half the pattern...they did that with the Midnight Blues last year and then added the partial step seq. If they go with the full TR pattern, I would guess they'll eliminate the partial step.

I enjoyed watching the CDs once I understood the patterns and steps and what to look for, b/c I skate with some dancers, including adults, who were usually working on (or previously passed) the CDs being skated that year, so they could educate me on the pattern and common errors/pitfalls. Before I understood the finer points, I was bored.

I hope not, I love that pattern when fully done ! I'd personnally get rid of the No-touch because just like in the Waltz SD it takes 2 people together for that type of Dance - as opposite to a Swing or Hip-Hop where a No-touch is necessary. Love it in Latin too. But in Tango ...
Plus, the whole pattern has everything to differenciate the teams : intricacy, slower moments then back to sharp moments.