The Dance Hall 13: When You Dance on the Ice and Your Feet Twizzle Twice, That's Amore

[her grace]

Thrilled for Wolfkostin/Tsarevski's 5th-place debut on the senior Grand Prix. That's a strong start! And just because I was curious, here's what placement other American teams got in their first GP competition:

5th: Carreria/Ponomarenko, Zingas/Kolesnik, Neset/Markelov, Brown/Brown
6th: Bratti/Somerville
7th: Green/Parsons, Pate/Bye

 

[marbri]

So if my menu french is correct looks like Laurence got her French citizenship.

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eta.. I see now @cholla already shared this in the French skating thread:

Post in thread 'News and updates à la Française, part quatre'

Yesterday at 6:45 AM

Laurence Fournier-Beaudry is officially a French citizen

• cholla

• 
• 

 

[SidelineSkater]

Thrilled for Wolfkostin/Tsarevski's 5th-place debut on the senior Grand Prix. That's a strong start! And just because I was curious, here's what placement other American teams got in their first GP competition:

5th: Carreria/Ponomarenko, Zingas/Kolesnik, Neset/Markelov, Brown/Brown
6th: Bratti/Somerville
7th: Green/Parsons, Pate/Bye

Adding in…

3rd - Shibs - NHK in 2010
4th - Chock/Bates - SC in 2011

 

[MsZem]

4th - Chock/Bates - SC in 2011

Their senior GP debuts before teaming up:

Samuelson/Bates - 4th, 2008 Skate America
Chock/Zuerlein - 8th, 2009 Cup of China

I will always miss Emily and her glorious toe point.

 

[Dobre]

My overall thoughts this ice dance season:

I'm ready for a whole new code of points.

 

[Karen-W]

Okay, so question here for folks who were far more tuned in and paying attention to the 2014-18 cycle. Kaitlyn Weaver expressed ardent support during her Skate Canada commentary for the IDTC's direction in trying to expand ice dance beyond the strictures of gender roles by reducing any emphasis/use of established pattern dances as an element in the RD. I saw some snark either in the SCI pbp thread or on X that this tracked because she actually was never all that good at compulsories/pattern dances during her own career. I'd sort of attributed her efforts to cultural reasons, but it's been something that's been niggling at the back of my head the past week or so. So, what's the consensus? Is Weaver someone who struggled with compulsories/pattern dance elements during her competitive years and is that a bigger, perhaps subconscious, factor in why she's so hellbent on sucking up to Rettstatt and pushing ice dance in the direction it's gone this Olympic cycle?

 

[~tapdancer~]

Okay, so question here for folks who were far more tuned in and paying attention to the 2014-18 cycle. Kaitlyn Weaver expressed ardent support during her Skate Canada commentary for the IDTC's direction in trying to expand ice dance beyond the strictures of gender roles by reducing any emphasis/use of established pattern dances as an element in the RD. I saw some snark either in the SCI pbp thread or on X that this tracked because she actually was never all that good at compulsories/pattern dances during her own career. I'd sort of attributed her efforts to cultural reasons, but it's been something that's been niggling at the back of my head the past week or so. So, what's the consensus? Is Weaver someone who struggled with compulsories/pattern dance elements during her competitive years and is that a bigger, perhaps subconscious, factor in why she's so hellbent on sucking up to Rettstatt and pushing ice dance in the direction it's gone this Olympic cycle?

I loved W/P back in the day and I didn't think she was weak in CDs or pattern dances. I don't think that is the reason at all. I personally hate the idea of expanding ice Dance or pairs "beyond the strictures of gender roles". And certainly with Kaitlyn's personal life choice, she would be on board with that, imo. I don't think we need to color everything with "gender identity" but that's my own personal view. And for what it's worth, she and Andrew portrayed a beautiful woman/man couple on the ice with complete authenticity during their competitive years. At least in my eyes. And I think honestly most of the pair or ice dance couples portray authentic woman/man couples on the ice no matter what their life choices are. Even sibling teams give it their best shot and succeed.

male/male or female/female skating together? Androgynous couple? Save it for the ice shows. Could be lucrative, I suppose.

 

[Bigbird]

Having seen this for ballet, My Way - Frank Sinatra, I see no reason why same sex pairings cannot be just as impactful. We're giving women in particular more choices and avenues for self-expression. It's our preconceived notions that are prejudicing us against something that could be really good for the sport.

 

[Karen-W]

Having seen this for ballet, My Way - Frank Sinatra, I see no reason why same sex pairings cannot be just as impactful. We're giving women in particular more choices and avenues for self-expression. It's our preconceived notions that are prejudicing us against something that could be really good for the sport.

I don't have a problem with same-sex partnerships in either dance or pairs, but I guess what I find troubling is if trying to open the sport up more is being used as an excuse to further reduce the importance or necessity of the pattern dances. I don't see any reason why you can't just designate the steps by Partner 1 and Partner 2 and leave it at that but still keep the pattern dances with key points as an element in the RD. What we're seeing in juniors with this is that both partners are being forced to learn both sets of steps, which is the truest form of equality between the genders that can exist.

 

[Marta24]

Junior ice dance still has patterns while doing those decade themes and overall their RDs are more cohesive, because they don't have that ridiculous Choreo Step in there. The IDTC is showing in Juniors how you can still keep patterns without adhering to the strict gender roles (e.g. allowing partners to switch key points), therefore her argument makes no sense at all.

 

[Bunny Hop]

I'm going from memory, but I don't think Weaver and Poje were weak at compulsories, and doubt they'd have had the success they did had that been a problem. In comparison to your Virtue and Moirs who were very good at patterns maybe they would suffer in comparison but that would be the extent of it.

I don't see any reason why you can't just designate the steps by Partner 1 and Partner 2 and leave it at that but still keep the pattern dances with key points as an element in the RD.

Ballroom uses Leader and Follower to designate who is doing what steps and is introducing same sex events at certain competitions.

What we're seeing in juniors with this is that both partners are being forced to learn both sets of steps,

I would really like to see the seniors doing this.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Okay, so question here for folks who were far more tuned in and paying attention to the 2014-18 cycle. Kaitlyn Weaver expressed ardent support during her Skate Canada commentary for the IDTC's direction in trying to expand ice dance beyond the strictures of gender roles by reducing any emphasis/use of established pattern dances as an element in the RD. I saw some snark either in the SCI pbp thread or on X that this tracked because she actually was never all that good at compulsories/pattern dances during her own career. I'd sort of attributed her efforts to cultural reasons, but it's been something that's been niggling at the back of my head the past week or so. So, what's the consensus? Is Weaver someone who struggled with compulsories/pattern dance elements during her competitive years and is that a bigger, perhaps subconscious, factor in why she's so hellbent on sucking up to Rettstatt and pushing ice dance in the direction it's gone this Olympic cycle?

When Weaver and Poje made their Worlds debut in 2007, they finished a few places higher in the compulsory dance than they did in the OD and FD so I don't think Weaver could have been too terrible at compulsories. Plus W&P won the short dance at both the 2014 and 2015 GPFs. I like the idea of expanding the gender norms of ice dance (bring back Anissina and Peizerat-style reverse lifts!) but I think that can be done while still having pattern dances as part of the sport.

 

[Rukia]

I don't have a problem with same-sex partnerships in either dance or pairs, but I guess what I find troubling is if trying to open the sport up more is being used as an excuse to further reduce the importance or necessity of the pattern dances. I don't see any reason why you can't just designate the steps by Partner 1 and Partner 2 and leave it at that but still keep the pattern dances with key points as an element in the RD. What we're seeing in juniors with this is that both partners are being forced to learn both sets of steps, which is the truest form of equality between the genders that can exist.

I've said it before, but if they were serious about wanting to do away with gendered roles in skating, they would just have each skater skate each part of the pattern. Tbh, a lot of skaters already do this anyway if they do any coaching because they will skate them with their students. My coach would even make me switch sometimes just to get more comfortable with the pattern. For that matter they would change lift requirements so that skaters could really do interesting things with who is being lifted and still get their levels.

In the end I support the goals of removing pointless gender roles from skating, but it somehow feels inauthentic in this instance. Maybe it's because it feels like they gave up before making any attempts at keeping patterns around.

Also I think it'd be funny to see the shorter partner have to be behind the taller partner for that skid stop into the toe hops of the Yankee Polka like let them be the big skating spoon for once.

 

[Kateri]

In the end I support the goals of removing pointless gender roles from skating, but it somehow feels inauthentic in this instance. Maybe it's because it feels like they gave up before making any attempts at keeping patterns around.

Yup. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBTQ)

 

[marbri]

If I may, just want to jump in with a side note that pinkwashing is also associated with the "Think Before You Pink" Breast Cancer campaign that started back in 2002. Just a little PSA for those that do hear the term to know it has other meanings and good to be aware of for those inclined to buy pink items with the belief proceeds go towards cancer research:

About Think Before You Pink® - Breast Cancer Action

www.bcaction.org

You may now carry on discussing Kaitlyn Weaver's campaign to destroy ice dance as we knew and loved it

 

[her grace]

If something from Weaver’s personal skating experience has deeply affected her views, I don’t think it’s that she was bad at CDs (she was a strong technical skater). Rather, she and Poje were facing like the uber-ist heteronormative dance couple in recent history in Virtue/Moir. Her close proximity to that could have colored her opinions on what is needed to “improve” dance. But even in her day, there were plenty of teams that went beyond the lovers’ angle: Bobrova/Soloviev’s sailor dance, Shibs, Pechelat/Bourzat’s creative voidy dances, etc.

 

[manhn]

Interesting, as I always thought that Weaver and Poje also benefited from that male female chemistry thing, especially with Je Suis Malade. Contrast that to a team like Gilles and Poirier that have never benefited from that. But this discussion takes me back to that Virtue Moir docuseries where it was so amazing that Weaver and Poje were roommates but never dated.

 

[Twilight1]

This talk about Virtue and Moir just makes me sad they are not still skating.

That said, Weaver was a strong technical skater.

 

[PRlady]

Je Suis Malade was one of the most heteronormative FDs of the last ten years, right down to the drooping negligee strap. No one forced them to skate a story right out of a sexy French movie but they did. Then there was the one I loved with Kaitlyn in updo and pearls, like a skating Grace Kelly. It was fabulous but again, a choice.

Then there are couples who went in different directions. DenkSta Seven Sins, one of my favorite FDs of all times along with A/P’s Carmina Burana. The Carnivale FD from DelSchoes. Even Navka’s Pink Panther. None of those dances depended on overt sexual chemistry.

 

[Bigbird]

If something from Weaver’s personal skating experience has deeply affected her views, I don’t think it’s that she was bad at CDs (she was a strong technical skater). Rather, she and Poje were facing like the uber-ist heteronormative dance couple in recent history in Virtue/Moir. Her close proximity to that could have colored her opinions on what is needed to “improve” dance. But even in her day, there were plenty of teams that went beyond the lovers’ angle: Bobrova/Soloviev’s sailor dance, Shibs, Pechelat/Bourzat’s creative voidy dances, etc.

Bobrova/Soloviev's chess SD is one for the ages. Boy, did they bring the drama for that one.

 

[Bigbird]

Je Suis Malade was one of the most heteronormative FDs of the last ten years, right down to the drooping negligee strap. No one forced them to skate a story right out of a sexy French movie but they did. Then there was the one I loved with Kaitlyn in updo and pearls, like a skating Grace Kelly. It was fabulous but again, a choice.

Then there are couples who went in different directions. DenkSta Seven Sins, one of my favorite FDs of all times along with A/P’s Carmina Burana. The Carnivale FD from DelSchoes. Even Navka’s Pink Panther. None of those dances depended on overt sexual chemistry.

Frida from Delobel and Schoenfelder, also if we're reminiscing.

 

[Bigbird]

If I may, just want to jump in with a side note that pinkwashing is also associated with the "Think Before You Pink" Breast Cancer campaign that started back in 2002. Just a little PSA for those that do hear the term to know it has other meanings and good to be aware of for those inclined to buy pink items with the belief proceeds go towards cancer research:

About Think Before You Pink® - Breast Cancer Action

www.bcaction.org

You may now carry on discussing Kaitlyn Weaver's campaign to destroy ice dance as we knew and loved it

She may have been scarred permanently from their partnership with the slimy one, N. Morozov.

 

[Twilight1]

Heart Attack Bourne & Kraatz.

Loved that program... but like 26 years old

 

[coralline]

I´ve heard rumors that IDTC may bring back pattern dance for Sr next cycle.

 

[her grace]

Je Suis Malade was one of the most heteronormative FDs of the last ten years, right down to the drooping negligee strap. No one forced them to skate a story right out of a sexy French movie but they did.

I wonder if she felt constrained by skating convention, her coaches, etc. But note that’s just my speculation.

Rachel Parsons and Karina Manta are on record stating that they were criticized for not being feminine enough and were definitely pushed toward conventional feminine expression in their partnerships. Even a skater teamed with her brother couldn’t avoid those expectations.

 

[Twilight1]

Kaitlyn Weaver and Andrew Poje worked with Shae Lynn, Angelika, Pasquele, Igor, Galit and Nikolai etc. She was exposed to many coaches and styles but I think they looked most happiest with Anjelika and Pasquele just IMHO. Shae Lynn was still locked up in shows (thus being with Anjelika and Pasquele) and they only moved to Nikolai towards the end of their careers. (Good thing that given NM's rep)

I think they just had the curse of 2nd team on them because for several years they were so good and arguments could 100% be made they should have won World's in 2014

 

[kwanfan1818]

I think it was last year, or maybe the season before, that the juniors had one set pattern, and each skater had to switch roles in the pattern repeat Not choose one lead and one follow: each had to lead and follow. That should have solved any gender role issue. Very little change feels comfortable the first time around.

 

[MsZem]

I like the idea of expanding the gender norms of ice dance (bring back Anissina and Peizerat-style reverse lifts!) but I think that can be done while still having pattern dances as part of the sport.

And there's no reason not to do them as a choreo element (Faiella and Scali or the Kerrs had non-scoring ones), or even as a regular lift (Hurtado and Diaz got L4 for their reverse lift).

Je Suis Malade was one of the most heteronormative FDs of the last ten years, right down to the drooping negligee strap.

It was 14 years ago (2011-12 season)

 

[Bunny Hop]

right down to the drooping negligee strap.

Why did you have to remind me of that? The memory is going to make me twitchy for the rest of the evening.

 

[marbri]

And there's no reason not to do them as a choreo element (Faiella and Scali or the Kerrs had non-scoring ones), or even as a regular lift (Hurtado and Diaz got L4 for their reverse lift).


It was 14 years ago (2011-12 season)

But they brought it back six years later and skated it at 2018 Olympics. And as I typed that I started doing the math for Gilles/Poirier and Vincent but for them it's 7 years so will shall see how lucky seven turns out to be.