The best performances in 90's women's figure skating that just missed out on a World medal

[SkateGuard]

Some incredibly talented skaters just missed out on a medal at the World Championships in the 1990's. Six of them won World titles either before or after they finished 4th.

Taking into account the overall performances (CF or QR if applicable, SP/OP, FS) of the following, which two skaters gave the best performances the year(s) they finished 4th and why?

 

[briancoogaert]

I'd say all of them !
Of course some made mistakes, but it's so sad Laetitia Hubert, Marina Kiellmann or Tatiana Malinina never made a podium at Worlds ! Their performances at Worlds were memorable.

 

[screech]

I still remember after the 98/99 GPF thinking Tatiana Malinina would be on the podium at Worlds. So disappointed that she just missed out.

 

[VGThuy]

I voted for Kwan 1995 (anyone surprised?) based on how she skated in all phases of the competition, but Irina was shockingly good at 1997 Worlds LP. I need to rewatch some of the others and maybe I’ll change my vote if somebody else changes my mind.

 

[tony]

This poll for me comes down to who I actually think deserved a medal based on the performances. If it were best performance, I might very well give it to Slutskaya in 1997 and then Kwan in 1995.

Here's who definitely wouldn't get my vote:

Yamaguchi in 1990 I cannot give a fair assessment since I don't know how the compulsories went.

Hubert in 1992 is out. Triple jumps everywhere, but multiple splats (including one on a late 3T which she didn't even need to do) and the basics/choreo were.. bad.

Kielmann in 1994 loses out because her technique was also "interesting" and I think Szewczenko was the rightful medalist.

In 1997, I know Slutskaya had a brilliant LP but I still think Gusmeroli deserved 1st in the short program and Kwan 1st in the long, so I don't think Irina would've been able to catch back up anyways. The program had 6 triples, including a 3+3, but Kwan was much better IMO.

Malinina in 1999, IMO, was held up to the point of being one judge away from the silver medal. She won NHK and the GPF and suddenly her marks really shot up for the same exact empty Aladdin program. I'm protesting on behalf of Gusmeroli again, who certainly deserved 2nd in the short ahead of Soldatova, and had the much better overall skating and programs when compared to Malinina.

These are the ones that I think make the best cases:

Kwan in 1995 should top the list. I remember the ordinals in the short and long were so split and probably 'one judge away' in both cases to move Michelle up into the medals. Presentation may not have been brilliant yet, but she was fabulous through the whole competition.

I remember we had a watch party (created by moi) several years ago regarding 1996 and most people thought Butyrskaya deserved bronze over Slutskaya. I know her program was very start and stop, but she skated really well until the very end and her overall presentation was lightyears ahead of Slutskaya at that point, who was flailing around everywhere. Irina also had that wild fall on the 3Lz to start the long.

And surprisingly enough, I'd say Laetitia Hubert in 1998. Butyrskaya is my all-time favorite, but I think her short program placement was a huge gift (I think I put her 9th or 10th) and if she were even one spot lower than the 5th they gave her, Laetitia would've been on the podium.

Since it's two choices, I'm going with Kwan in 1995 and Hubert in 1998.

 

[viennese]

Malinina had a brilliant season but ended up fourth because of a placement in the qualifying round.

I'm glad those qualifying rounds are gone.

 

[tony]

Malinina had a brilliant season but ended up fourth because of a placement in the qualifying round.

I'm glad those qualifying rounds are gone.

Malinina ended up fourth because she stepped out of her Lutz in the short program. She was 2nd in her qualifying, ahead of eventual bronze medalist Soldatova.

 

[bardtoob]

It is clear that Kwan did not win a medal at 1995 Worlds because the judges had a "wait your turn" attitude. She clearly had superior skating skills in comparison to at least one skater that finished above her, even if she only had the speed and power of a waif at age 14, and, of course, she had great jumps and her spins were probably better than in later parts of her career.

Irina's LP from the 1996-97 season is my favorite of her career. If I were a judge, I would have probably sandwiched Irina between Kwan and Lipinski in the LP at 1997 Worlds because their technical flaws were just as glaring but Irina had more robust technique.

 

[On My Own]

Irina's LP from the 1996-97 season is my favorite of her career. I were a judge, I would have probably sandwiched Irina between Kwan and Lipinski in the LP at 1997 Worlds because their technical flaws were just as glaring but Irina had more robust technique.

Yep!

 

[tony]

Irina's LP from the 1996-97 season is my favorite of her career. If I were a judge, I would have probably sandwiched Irina between Kwan and Lipinski in the LP at 1997 Worlds because their technical flaws were just as glaring but Irina had more robust technique.

Pulling up an old post of mine:

Yes, it was going to be almost* (see below) impossible to slide Slutskaya between the two unless a judge was ready to throw a 6.0 at Irina for either mark, and we know that wasn't going to happen. They all ended up with three first place ordinals each, and the three judges that gave Irina first all placed Michelle second. Irina would've needed 2nd place ordinals from at least two more judges that had Lipinski second, so that only leaves judges 3, 6, and 7, and none of them left any room without a 6.0.

Interestingly, out of the three judges that had Slutskaya 1st, two of them had the option of slotting her in 2nd between Michelle and Tara. Michelle would've needed more help, but those judges were still giving Tara the win with Irina's 1st place ordinal

6.0 and boxing themselves in made it pretty much impossible.

 

[Andora]

Irina's LP from the 1996-97 season is my favorite of her career. If I were a judge, I would have probably sandwiched Irina between Kwan and Lipinski in the LP at 1997 Worlds because their technical flaws were just as glaring but Irina had more robust technique.

I've long thought I was alone in that being my favourite of her programs. Agreed.

 

[bardtoob]

I've long thought I was alone in that being my favourite of her programs. Agreed.

This is my favorite performance and broadcast of it.

Irina Slutskaya (RUS) - 1996 Skate Canada International, Ladies' Long Program

Kitchener, Ontario, CANADA - 1996 Skate Canada International, Ladies' Long Program - Irina Slutskaya of Russia won the Long Program and ended up winning the ...

www.youtube.com

 

[Private Citizen]

I've always wondered why Slutskaya didn't do the final 3S, which she had been doing all season, at 1997 Worlds and if a seventh triple may have won over a couple more judges.

Rewatching the performance, I'd have called her lutz 3Lze and her flip 3F!. I do think she got the edge better on both jumps after her 1999 technique change, even though she started telegraphing more.

I liked the Phantom on Ice program, too. It had a powerful, angular style that was a precursor to her 2003-05 free skate.

 

[viennese]

Malinina ended up fourth because she stepped out of her Lutz in the short program. She was 2nd in her qualifying, ahead of eventual bronze medalist Soldatova.

I stand corrected.

 

[SkateGuard]

Such interesting thoughts from everyone!

Looking at where we are in skating today, I think it's quite interesting how Michelle Kwan was arguably 'held down' in 1995 because the perception was that she had the jumps but not "the whole package"... yet if you look at the 2022 Olympic women's podium it's quite a contrast in terms of what is being rewarded in skating these days.

The improvement in Irina Slutskaya's skating from '96 (when she won the bronze) to '97 (when he didn't) is a great point @tony!

@viennese - I kind of miss the qualifying rounds one way. I'm not a fan of this whole Minimum Score to get to compete in Worlds business. I think every ISU member deserves a chance to compete on that stage. I didn't like the qualifying rounds the years that those results were directly factored into the overall result.

 

[Andora]

This is my favorite performance and broadcast of it.

Irina Slutskaya (RUS) - 1996 Skate Canada International, Ladies' Long Program

Kitchener, Ontario, CANADA - 1996 Skate Canada International, Ladies' Long Program - Irina Slutskaya of Russia won the Long Program and ended up winning the ...

www.youtube.com

Ah - thank you! I usually end up watching worlds or (I think) the GFP with black costume. But agreed - I think that is the best performance and packaging of it.

Always thought it quirky that she skated to music from the same score for her SP that year, too. (Loved her SP costume)

 

[viennese]

SkateGuard, that's an interesting take. I didn't like the qualifying rounds as part of the overall score because I though that a three day event, for singles skaters, was a drain on energy (two competitive free skates over 3-4 days is a LOT). But I did like to see that competitors from all around the world had a chance to get to worlds.

 

[tony]

SkateGuard, that's an interesting take. I didn't like the qualifying rounds as part of the overall score because I though that a three day event, for singles skaters, was a drain on energy (two competitive free skates over 3-4 days is a LOT). But I did like to see that competitors from all around the world had a chance to get to worlds.

Welp, the qualifying rounds are coming back for those in the field not in the first 18 positions. So now we have the case of pre-1999 and 2012 or whatever year it was randomly back where some skaters will have to go through 3 programs and the rest only 2– starting next (2025) season.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I kind of miss the qualifying rounds one way. I'm not a fan of this whole Minimum Score to get to compete in Worlds business. I think every ISU member deserves a chance to compete on that stage. I didn't like the qualifying rounds the years that those results were directly factored into the overall result.

In 2024-25, they're adding them back, if there are enough members. They are changing the Minimum TES to a Combined Minimum, so that the skaters who have a cushion in one segment, but haven't been able to meet the other can compensate with their stronger segment. However, no matter what the actual scores are, any skater/team from that Member must be in the Top (S-30/P-16/ D-24, discipline-specific) Qualifying* Members' Combined Minimum.

*I'm interpreting this as a list of those Members who don't have Direct Entries. Because if they include countries with Direct Entries, the number of countries who could enter the Qualis would be about half.

Since there will be Direct Entries (24 for Singles, 16 for Pairs, and 20 for Dance, unless there more 2's and 3's, and they all get Direct Entries) that don't have to compete in the new Qualis, they can't and won't include the scores from them into the total scores.

I disagree, though, that every Member should be able to compete at championships without having some technical minimum. I think the minimum should be the total of the L1 base where elements are leveled plus the bases of the least difficult non-leveled elements that meet the SP/RD required elements with 0 GOE.

 

[tony]

I disagree, though, that every Member should be able to compete at championships without having some technical minimum. I think the minimum should be the total of the L1 base where elements are leveled plus the bases of the least difficult non-leveled elements that meet the SP/RD required elements with 0 GOE.

Agreed on all accounts. I still remember the very colorful argument that was brought up where some posters insisted every country should have at least 1 entry (I think one poster even wanted 3 entries), and when I brought up me skating for a South American nation with a 2T+2T, 2S, 2F, and 2A<< should allow me to go to Worlds as a 36 year old who has never really tested any levels, there was a ‘well… the federations should have a minimum level of skating’. In other words, there should be some kind of minimum!

If a skater cannot successfully do a 3T+2T, 3S, and 2A as a minimum at some point in international competition (at least as far as senior women are concerned), their Worlds trip is to probably skate in the QR and then go home. Gone are the days when ‘this is the only time they can skate around such great skaters or see them!’ Almost every competition is streamed now in full, and there are a plethora of international competitions that can be entered for experience.

ETA- and the judging panels. The way the new QR system is set up, they’d only ever have to judge 36 skaters in one segment. If you open up Worlds to each and every country who wants to send someone and get rid of the QR in the process, you are well over 50 entries in the singles’ fields, and it’s way too long of a day. It happened a few times from 2007-2010 IIRC and it’s just too long.

 

[SkateGuard]

Agreed on all accounts. I still remember the very colorful argument that was brought up where some posters insisted every country should have at least 1 entry (I think one poster even wanted 3 entries), and when I brought up me skating for a South American nation with a 2T+2T, 2S, 2F, and 2A<< should allow me to go to Worlds as a 36 year old who has never really tested any levels, there was a ‘well… the federations should have a minimum level of skating’. In other words, there should be some kind of minimum!

If a skater cannot successfully do a 3T+2T, 3S, and 2A as a minimum at some point in international competition (at least as far as senior women are concerned), their Worlds trip is to probably skate in the QR and then go home.

I was probably one of those people although I definitely think 3 per country would be way too much.

If a skater from Antarctica with a 2T and 2S wants to show up, live their best life and finish dead last, they’re not hurting anyone. Everyone starts somewhere - look at China back in the day. Maybe I’m sappy, but I just think the idea of a World Championships where every member federation is represented is a beautiful thing.

Totally get where you’re coming from though - we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one!

 

[VGThuy]

Welp, the qualifying rounds are coming back for those in the field not in the first 18 positions. So now we have the case of pre-1999 and 2012 or whatever year it was randomly back where some skaters will have to go through 3 programs and the rest only 2– starting next (2025) season.

Do you know how they determined which skaters did the QR (or PR) and which didn't during that random season? I guess it was based on ranking? I just did a quick glance at 2011 Worlds and was kind of surprised that some skaters who competed that season (some placing pretty well) having to do the PR while others didn't.

 

[tony]

Do you know how they determined which skaters did the QR (or PR) and which didn't during that random season? I guess it was based on ranking? I just did a quick glance at 2011 Worlds and was kind of surprised that some skaters who competed that season (some placing pretty well) having to do the PR while others didn't.

I forget, but maybe it was based on ISU rankings at the time? I mean, I can't think of any other explanation how Kozuka had to do the PR and Takahashi & Oda didn't, even though Kozuka was National Champion that year and Oda didn't even make the free skate in 2010-- so it's not like it was based on those specific 2010 results.

ETA- I went back and peeped in on my old (deactivated) blog and found where I went line-by-line during the Congress changes that year:

The skaters that directly qualifying to the short program/short dance are based on the results of the same competition from the prior season.

7. If a Federation doesn't use all of their entries in either the direct competition or qualifying round, then the skaters ranked highest in the ISU World Standings would move into the direct competition. Example, if Elene Gedevanishvili would retire before the 2011 Worlds and Georgia doesn't send any other lady to the competition, then her spot that she directly qualified is now open and the highest-ranked skater in the qualifying round would then move up into the direct competition rather than having to skate three portions.

So Oda not qualifying in 2010 was the reason a Japanese man had to do it in 2011 in the first place, and Kozuka had to be lowest in ISU Standings.

 

[VGThuy]

I forget, but maybe it was based on ISU rankings at the time? I mean, I can't think of any other explanation how Kozuka had to do the PR and Takahashi & Oda didn't, even though Kozuka was National Champion that year and Oda didn't even make the free skate in 2010-- so it's not like it was based on those specific 2010 results.

ETA- I went back and peeped in on my old (deactivated) blog and found where I went line-by-line during the Congress changes that year:



So Oda not qualifying in 2010 was the reason a Japanese man had to do it in 2011 in the first place, and Kozuka had to be lowest in ISU Standings.

I get it now. This must also mean that if a federation "gained" a spot after the prior World Championships, then whoever was "last" in terms of ISU rankings among the entries from that federation had to compete in the PR, since that "gained spot" didn't qualify for the SP/SD of the "same competition" from the "prior season" since there was nobody in that spot to even compete to quality for the SP/SD. That explains Weaver/Poje having to compete in the PR at 2011 Worlds.

 

[tennellicious]

sorry I missed this one!

95 Kwan for sure
Ilia's mom runner up

 

[sadya]

They said that in 1995 Kwan was deemed to young to podium, so they didn't give her a medal. And that's why the next year, she was packaged as a scary person in the lp (it was a great program, but the story behind it is scary), they wanted to show that she was mature enough to medal. Well, as far as I'm concerned, that 1995 performance should have medalled (and for me, personally, Chen should have won 1996 Worlds).

 

[bardtoob]

And that's why the next year, she was packaged as a scary person in the lp (it was a great program, but the story behind it is scary), they wanted to show that she was mature enough to medal.

I never thought of it this way, but you right

 

[Marco]

Kwan in 1995 by a mile.

The ordinals were quite mixed in both portions of the competition so I do accept the final placements as they were, but Kwan was really THIS close to the podium. Kwan did give the most clean and technically difficult programs of the competition with a 3lutz combo and solo 3flip (as the second last element!) in the short; plus 7 triples including 2 lutzes in the free. Bonaly had mistakes in both programs and I am surprised that with her skating quality, she eventually landed in 2nd, other than the fact that she was a multiple and reigning European Champion and lost the last 2 World titles in close split decisions (both 5/4?). That said, I accept Bonaly over Kwan for the podium due to mixed ordinals but I cannot accept Bonaly nearly beating Chen in the free for the title.

In hindsight, I think the correct placement based on overall performances should have been Chen, Bobek, Kwan, Bonaly.

Butyrskaya in 1996 would be my second choice. Slutskaya did have the hardest short program combo of 3lutz2loop but she wasn't going to place above Kwan or Chen and their masterpieces. So the bronze just came down to Butyrskaya and Slutskaya in the free. Aside from a hand down on the second 3loop, Butyrskaya's triples were confident and magnificent. Slutskaya fell on her opening lutz and had shaky landings on some other triples. If Slutskaya wasn't the new and reigning European Champion over Butyrskaya I believe the battle for bronze would have been a lot closer, if not flipped in Butyrskaya's favour.

Slutskaya in 1997 is interesting. In fact I would have Gusmeroli win the short and be even more ahead of Slutskaya heading into the free. However, for me the question really is should Butyrskaya beat Gusmeroli in the free. If she should (and did), then Slutskaya would have won the bronze. Now Buryskaya doubled her lutz but did 5 big triples and 2 combos. Gusmeroli did one of each triple but fell out of the opening flip and did no clean jump combo. Butyrskaya had a beautiful, classical program, whereas Gusmeroli had an innovative program but she did break away to search for those triples esp in the second half and started to look sloppy. It was kind of close for me. I guess it all comes down to whether to closely inspect Butyrskaya's flip or not for a touch down landing. I might just have Butyrskaya ahead on a second mark tie-break, and thereby giving the bronze to Slutskaya. I don't think Slutskaya vs Lipinski would be a legit argument since it was 6 triples vs 7, with one less 3lutz and 2axel-3sal combo; and I didn't appreciate either's presentation.

Malinina lost out the bronze in 1999 much like Kwan did in 1995 or Butyrskaya did in 1996, i.e. after Europeans. I have no idea how Soldatova placed so high in either portion of the competition with her jumps and presentation, unless to take her reigning European silver medal into account (and the fact that she was the second placed Russian heading into the competition with Slutskaya not being there). The jump quality could not compare and her sal was simply atrocious.

 

[Private Citizen]

Kwan in 1995 by a mile.

She was quite slow. I think the top four were all a jumble, and it could've gone any way. Re: Chen v. Bonaly, Chen skated very conservatively, and her spins were always on the weaker side. The difficult elements were all in the first minute / 90 seconds, and from there it seemed like she was skating not to lose until the last 20 seconds or so. I liked the program, but not this particular performance of it.

Butyrskaya in 1996 would be my second choice.

Surprised by this. Butyskaya's Malaguena program had weak choreography and spins. The program had some really obvious rest spots, and she always seemed winded by the 2:30 mark. The spins were also kind of throwaway, e.g., no change-foot combination spin. Both had one big mistake (and Butyrskaya's was as a disruptive as a fall); Slutskaya had more triples, greater speed, much better spins, and a program that kept moving throughout. I thought it should've been closer between Szewczenko (despite no choreography at all) and Butyrskaya, than between Butyrskaya and Slutskaya.

Malinina lost out the bronze in 1999 much like Kwan did in 1995 or Butyrskaya did in 1996, i.e. after Europeans.

The short program error did her in. I do think there's an argument Malinina should have beaten Kwan in both the short and free, which would've given her silver. But that's not a hill I'm going to die on, given that horrible Aladdin program.

 

[On My Own]

Chen v. Bonaly, Chen skated very conservatively, and her spins were always on the weaker side.

Bonaly's skating skills were vastly inferior to hers.

The difficult elements were all in the first minute / 90 seconds,

She did a 3Lo around 2 minutes in...

She also did a split-flip+3T towards the end of the program, followed by a 2A with minimal set up.