SafeSport alleges "culture of grooming and abuse" in U.S. figure skating

[Willin]

Mashable (of all places) managed to obtain a copy of the email from SafeSport; except of relevance here:



https://mashable.com/article/figure-skating-abuse-statement/#5Z1fLnn4VaqZ

@overedge I completely agree. To me this excerpt (maybe someone will release the entire statement) reads as a warning to USFS about having larger consequences.

I don't know why you're reading this as a warning letter to USFS in particular. I read this more as an indictment of US sports federations in general, particularly this part of the section you quoted:

it is evident that there was/is a culture in figure skating that allowed grooming and abuse to go unchecked for too long. The issues in this sport are similar to those the Center has seen in many others and cut across a wide population.

So, yeah, I think they're sending USFS a message since they're the ones under media pressure right now, but I think this is a wider statement saying that while USFS is bad, they're awfulness about this type of thing permeates the whole of youth sports.

And I think that might be the point SafeSport may be trying to make: you can't just change the culture around sexual misconduct in one sport. You can't just "fix" the governing body in one sport. You can't just expect things to change. All of sports - youth, adult, and professional - needs to change. The culture of what's acceptable in youth sports and for youth sports coaches needs to change. Maybe the pairs issue is unique to skating due to that dynamic, but it's part of a broader discussion of sports and governing bodies in general. Today they call out US Figure Skating, but there are plenty more organizations to come.

From Phil Hersh's article:

“Many U.S. Figure Skating athletes and members have expressed concern to U.S. Figure Skating leadership over the Center’s actions and shared that they have lost trust and confidence in how the Center processes allegations of abuse,” the USFS letter said.

US Figure Skating said they lost faith in Safe Sport. Well, I have lost faith in US Figure Skating because everything they've done has been about protecting themselves and making it clear that victims are not safe coming forward.

Based on this quote I wonder how many of the "athletes and members" that have "expressed concern" to USFSA are skaters/coaches right in HQ's own backyard who happen to be friends of Dalilah.
As much as skaters mourned Coughlin on twitter, none I saw outside of Dalilah's group were openly criticizing or questioning the investigation. If anything, many at least implied that they supported the SafeSport investigation in question and even more were willing to speak out and say that all accusers deserve to have their claims heard. But really, who does USFSA care about most but themselves? And if two members and two athletes (which, for all we know, could mean basically USFS's leadership council if you include former athletes) complain about SafeSport you bet they'll mention that instead of the literal thousands of skaters, coaches, and parents that support SafeSport.

 

[Moustaffask8r]

I don't know why you're reading this as a warning letter to USFS in particular. I read this more as an indictment of US sports federations in general, particularly this part of the section you quoted:

So, yeah, I think they're sending USFS a message since they're the ones under media pressure right now, but I think this is a wider statement saying that while USFS is bad, they're awfulness about this type of thing permeates the whole of youth sports.

And I think that might be the point SafeSport may be trying to make: you can't just change the culture around sexual misconduct in one sport. You can't just "fix" the governing body in one sport. You can't just expect things to change. All of sports - youth, adult, and professional - needs to change. The culture of what's acceptable in youth sports and for youth sports coaches needs to change. Maybe the pairs issue is unique to skating due to that dynamic, but it's part of a broader discussion of sports and governing bodies in general. Today they call out US Figure Skating, but there are plenty more organizations to come.


Based on this quote I wonder how many of the "athletes and members" that have "expressed concern" to USFSA are skaters/coaches right in HQ's own backyard who happen to be friends of Dalilah.
As much as skaters mourned Coughlin on twitter, none I saw outside of Dalilah's group were openly criticizing or questioning the investigation. If anything, many at least implied that they supported the SafeSport investigation in question and even more were willing to speak out and say that all accusers deserve to have their claims heard. But really, who does USFSA care about most but themselves? And if two members and two athletes (which, for all we know, could mean basically USFS's leadership council if you include former athletes) complain about SafeSport you bet they'll mention that instead of the literal thousands of skaters, coaches, and parents that support SafeSport.

Reading all this, talking about a grooming culture, don't you think it might mean they might have other report about other persons in that same sport re: figure skating and that it might be that lots of individuals, in that sport are not complying with SafeSport rules? I don't think the problem is about pair skating, the problem is with people being in position of power over an other individual, using this power in a way that it implies sexual misconduct. Some of you were talking about Google to get a straight definition of grooming, maybe googling SafeSport and taking the course would make you understand and wonder what pushes some individual with the obligation to take the course because they are members of USFS(coaches, Board members, etc.) can't comply with those rules. Once again, Safe Sport gives tools to protect yourself from being accused. I wonder if we are dealing with people who thinks they are above anything, any rules and just can do whatever they please.

 

[5Ali3]

(As always, I am expressing my personal opinions and not speaking for anyone else.)

Based on this quote I wonder how many of the "athletes and members" that have "expressed concern" to USFSA are skaters/coaches right in HQ's own backyard who happen to be friends of Dalilah.

This is a near universal sentiment among those who have dealt with the Center for SafeSport or heard accurate details of their investigations and outcomes. There are multiple cases in figure skating alone that have stretched over a year with no end in sight, whereas U.S. Figure Skating has explicit (listed in the rulebook) short time frames for grievances. The SafeSport code is less restrictive than U.S. Figure Skating's rules were, and there have been coaches "cleared" by SafeSport for conduct that would have resulted in a ban from U.S. Figure Skating. The Center has prohibited USFS from implementing interim measures like not being allowed to travel with Team USA, which used to be possible. The people who believe that SafeSport is overstepping are more vocal, but I wouldn't conclude that the "concerns" referenced in U.S. Figure Skating's statement refer exclusively or even largely to that viewpoint.

(I think it's important to add that while I believe strongly that USFS handled reported cases of sexual misconduct better than SafeSport is handling them, I'm also aware that many, many people were reluctant to report their abuse to the internal system. I am not advocating for jurisdiction over allegations of sexual misconduct to be returned to U.S. Figure Skating.)

Reading all this, talking about a grooming culture, don't you think it might mean they might have other report about other persons in that same sport re: figure skating and that it might be that lots of individuals, in that sport are not complying with SafeSport rules? I don't think the problem is about pair skating, the problem is with people being in position of power over an other individual, using this power in a way that it implies sexual misconduct. Some of you were talking about Google to get a straight definition of grooming, maybe googling SafeSport and taking the course would make you understand and wonder what pushes some individual with the obligation to take the course because they are members of USFS(coaches, Board members, etc.) can't comply with those rules. Once again, Safe Sport gives tools to protect yourself from being accused. I wonder if we are dealing with people who thinks they are above anything, any rules and just can do whatever they please.

DING DING DING

As a reminder, the PSA and U.S. Figure Skating have required coaches to do continuing education every year for many years regarding grooming and sexual misconduct. Abusive coaches know that they are not allowed to do what they done/are doing and they do it anyway.

 

[Vagabond]

USA Today updated Brennan's article yesterday at 5:14 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...re-grooming-abuse-probe-safesport/3053528002/

It now reads like a proper newspaper article. And includes this, which should satisfy whiny friends of John Coughlin, but won't:

“The most severe sanction the Center can impose is permanent ineligibility to participate in sport,” it continued. “In this instance, the respondent’s eligibility to participate in sport is no longer at issue. Furthermore, the Center is dedicated to providing a fundamentally fair adjudicatory process. Indeed, fairness dictates that the Center not complete an investigation when it is impossible for the respondent to provide testimony regarding events about which only he would have knowledge. While the Center can proceed with an investigation where a respondent voluntarily elects not to participate in the process, it cannot and would not complete an investigation when a respondent is deceased.”

Cue the outrage.

 

[LarrySK8]

SafeSport has made allegations now against an entire group of persons involved in FS in the US. Without any real proof or evidence.

Sounds like mere accusations without any proof. In the real word, that's called slander or defamation.

I think SafeSport is now FOS. No credibility. Sorry.

 

[purple skates]

I don't know why you're reading this as a warning letter to USFS in particular. I read this more as an indictment of US sports federations in general, particularly this part of the section you quoted:

So, yeah, I think they're sending USFS a message since they're the ones under media pressure right now, but I think this is a wider statement saying that while USFS is bad, they're awfulness about this type of thing permeates the whole of youth sports.

And I think that might be the point SafeSport may be trying to make: you can't just change the culture around sexual misconduct in one sport. You can't just "fix" the governing body in one sport. You can't just expect things to change. All of sports - youth, adult, and professional - needs to change. The culture of what's acceptable in youth sports and for youth sports coaches needs to change. Maybe the pairs issue is unique to skating due to that dynamic, but it's part of a broader discussion of sports and governing bodies in general. Today they call out US Figure Skating, but there are plenty more organizations to come.


Based on this quote I wonder how many of the "athletes and members" that have "expressed concern" to USFSA are skaters/coaches right in HQ's own backyard who happen to be friends of Dalilah.
As much as skaters mourned Coughlin on twitter, none I saw outside of Dalilah's group were openly criticizing or questioning the investigation. If anything, many at least implied that they supported the SafeSport investigation in question and even more were willing to speak out and say that all accusers deserve to have their claims heard. But really, who does USFSA care about most but themselves? And if two members and two athletes (which, for all we know, could mean basically USFS's leadership council if you include former athletes) complain about SafeSport you bet they'll mention that instead of the literal thousands of skaters, coaches, and parents that support SafeSport.

At Synchro Nationals this last week, there was a lot of safe sport discussion. I personally spoke with or listened to conversations between male coaches who span four disciplines of skating, and to a man they were concerned about what could happen to them under Safe Sport. By virtue of the sport, male coaches do sometimes touch females, including young females, especially in dance and pairs. All it takes is one vicious person with a grudge (and anyone who has been in skating knows there’s plenty of them out there) to make a complaint, and your career is over. Doesn’t matter if you are guilty of anything or not.

Reading all this, talking about a grooming culture, don't you think it might mean they might have other report about other persons in that same sport re: figure skating and that it might be that lots of individuals, in that sport are not complying with SafeSport rules? I don't think the problem is about pair skating, the problem is with people being in position of power over an other individual, using this power in a way that it implies sexual misconduct. Some of you were talking about Google to get a straight definition of grooming, maybe googling SafeSport and taking the course would make you understand and wonder what pushes some individual with the obligation to take the course because they are members of USFS(coaches, Board members, etc.) can't comply with those rules. Once again, Safe Sport gives tools to protect yourself from being accused. I wonder if we are dealing with people who thinks they are above anything, any rules and just can do whatever they please.

Safe Sport has some dumb rules, though. Or at least they are dumb as they are being interpreted. We’ve all heard stories of skaters being forced to change in public bathrooms at qualifying competitions - including at Synchro Nationals this weekend. How is that safe?

I’m not saying toss SafeSport, but there is a lot of problems with it in its current state.

 

[lala]

Well, what I understand..I really believe the innocents, the minors and the vulnerables must be protected, but I'm sure I wouldn't be figure skater especially coach in US.

 

[rfisher]

My answer to those coaches is to do exactly what we do in medicine when we image people of the opposite sex for any procedure or speak with a student, and that is to have a witness. That may not eliminate a grudge complaint from being made, but it provides an independent verification of what happened. And to always be professional.

I'm sorry, but a lot of people who don't want to post something blatantly negative about the victims who come forward, are making SafeSport be the bad guy. There would be no need for SafeSport if this didn't happen and if those within the sport didn't cover it up.

 

[Deleted member 221]

Wow, it's a shame to see the USFS and SafeSport attacking each other with neither organization (seemingly) doing anything for the athletes.

Re: SafeSport's allegations, I've seen a good number of pair relationships over the years (and sometimes just general skater relationships) that are in statutory rape territory. As other have pointed out, Katia and Sergei would've likely violated SafeSport regulations; likely Kovarikova and Novotny as well. It doesn't seem to be just a US thing. Skaters live in a bubble; pairs skaters live in a further bubble; the men in this bubble tend to be a good five-plus years older than the women in the bubble; most of the women that the 20-something men will encounter in this bubble are teenagers. Because the men in the bubble tend not to spend a lot of time in school and live fairly sheltered lives, the life stage differences inside the bubble are comparatively small, even though the physical differences are comparatively large. Hormones are high; add in adrenaline and very close physical contact.... In my view, this is an atmosphere that will cause sex between 20-something men and underage girls -- in the US or otherwise.

Is it deliberate grooming? I'm not sure. I tend to think no, actually -- it's probably a function of the strange dynamics of pairs skating versus deliberate ill-intent. But I am sure it's ignored. Mandatory reporters, including a lot of high profile coaches, are / were well aware of these relationships that violate professional code and sometimes the law, and do nothing. Judging by actions, skating (USFS and otherwise) has said -- at least to this point -- that these relationships are OK. If SafeSport is trying to point out this phenomenon, I think it's absolutely correct.

What to do about it? For one, the USFS could make very clear that any relationship that would constitute statutory rape (or possibly any relationship where one party is under 18) is always wrong, and anyone who knows about and doesn't report the relationship is subject to the same punishment as the offender. Some of the people who are speaking out about SafeSport, seem to be at least suggesting that Coughlin, in his 20s, had a relationship(s) with an older but possibly not yet legal teenager(s). And they seem to think that is/was OK. We seem to have a situation where SafeSport and those criticizing it are not that far apart on the facts, but are oceans apart on the meaning of those facts. If that's the case, everyone needs absolute clarity on what the facts mean -- without exception.

This, to me, would be a more productive discussion than mudslinging. Maybe some of the people who think this was OK would have an awakening that it was not, and maybe some of the people who want to throw the book at all offenders would recognize that there are mitigating factors that warrant much lighter punishment.

 

[Moustaffask8r]

My answer to those coaches is to do exactly what we do in medicine when we image people of the opposite sex for any procedure or speak with a student, and that is to have a witness. That may not eliminate a grudge complaint from being made, but it provides an independent verification of what happened. And to always be professional.

I'm sorry, but a lot of people who don't want to post something blatantly negative about the victims who come forward, are making SafeSport be the bad guy. There would be no need for SafeSport if this didn't happen and if those within the sport didn't cover it up.

In Safe Sport it is called the rule of two!!! so simple, you text a student, you copy someone else, you talk or have a meeting, you have another coach with you and do it somewhere public. It's purely basic commun sense that is not just specific to skating world ... your students skaters whatever are not your friends!! you need to keep the relationship professionnal! You cannot save stupid people from themselves. If coaches are given tools to dictate how they should behave and decided not to follow those rules, or think that those rules are not for them what can people do!!

 

[alj5]

I started watching A Very English Scandal this evening and the grooming by the powerful Hugh Grant character of the pitifully vulnerable young man was so awful I just turned it off. (And he was not a minor.) Stream the first episode, Tinami, for a really graphic portrayal of the process

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I tried really hard to get through the first episode because of the cast and the buzz, but I was just so creeped out by Hugh Grant's performance. I mean clearly Hugh is a great actor, because even a month later I still am creeped out by Hugh Grant.

 

[gkelly]

Absolutely coaches should not have one-on-one interactions with underage skaters outside of lessons.

During lessons, there are usually other people present on the ice, or in the vicinity in the areas where coaches might be preparing students to get on the ice, but they might not be paying attention to exactly what is said and done during the course of a lesson. There isn't anyone whose job it is to monitor every single professional coaching interaction.

Even less is there any way to monitor what goes on between two skaters off the ice, one younger than 18 and the other older. Of opposite sexes, they can chat on the ice while not in lessons, or in the lobby/warming room, or the parking lot, etc. If they're of the same sex, they may also chat in the locker rooms or restroom. Who's going to know if they make a date to meet somewhere other than the rink, or what goes on during that date?

Coaches, parents of younger skaters, fellow skaters, club volunteers, etc., can make an effort to keep their eyes open and speak up if they see anything especially concerning.

But ultimately, it's up to coaches and older skaters in positions of relative power to behave appropriately, and for younger skaters to learn what to look out for in terms of attention that may feel flattering to a naive young person.

 

[lala]

In our culture and it seems in Russia, too the good coaches are also pedagogues who care about the student outside the sports courts, ice. They know their family relations, their school progress their friends and maybe the boy/girlfriends. They touch each other, the coaches the pupils several times... There are ugly things in such conditions, of course but in most of the cases everything is normal because most of the people are normal! There are no more abusive cases in our system than in American where everybody is suspicious and "alleges culture of grooming and abuse in U.S. figure skating" -Awful!

 

[Willin]

@lala Of course US coaches also know about family relations, school progress, and the skaters' relationships. Those are common conversation topics and even if they weren't rink gossip would make its way around to the coach. That in itself is not problematic. What is problematic is for the coaches to get directly involved in those things. The coach is there for skating, not to be the skater's best friend, family member, or significant other.

Reading all this, talking about a grooming culture, don't you think it might mean they might have other report about other persons in that same sport re: figure skating and that it might be that lots of individuals, in that sport are not complying with SafeSport rules? I don't think the problem is about pair skating, the problem is with people being in position of power over an other individual, using this power in a way that it implies sexual misconduct. Some of you were talking about Google to get a straight definition of grooming, maybe googling SafeSport and taking the course would make you understand and wonder what pushes some individual with the obligation to take the course because they are members of USFS(coaches, Board members, etc.) can't comply with those rules. Once again, Safe Sport gives tools to protect yourself from being accused. I wonder if we are dealing with people who thinks they are above anything, any rules and just can do whatever they please.

I took the wording to mean other sports ("in this sport are similar to those... in many others"; sport being the subject here, not situation). It could refer to more cases in figure skating as well. I'm not discounting that this is not a common problem in skating - because especially in the elite levels I'm sure it is. I just think that SafeSport in this statement was trying to put it into a broader context.

Well, certainly there are people who think/know they're above everything. There are plenty of coaches out there that got away with it and continue to get away with it despite their creepiness being general knowledge even to USFSA leadership because of who they know or the results they produce. And then you have that one Russian coach in the US who everyone knows dates/marries barely legal skaters but he can't be gotten because he doesn't coach any US skaters and therefore isn't governed by USFSA and skaters are less likely to report him to SafeSport - and of course he's famous and gets results too. Just like Nassar in Gymnastics and some of the USA swimming coaches implicated (and a bunch of the people in hollywood/business/politics/life) you don't have to use those tools if you think your prominent position will protect you.
Personally I think in the case of pairs skating, that this SafeSport investigation seems to be about, I think it's less a case of people thinking they can get away with it and more a case of skaters being kept in this tiny bubble where they don't know what's right or wrong on both sides of the equation (men and women). Apparently that's what happened in the Alex Naddour case in Gymnastics and what has happened in a few of the USA swimming cases that did not involve coaches. I think for this cultural change and education of skaters/parents about whats appropriate and inappropriate is absolutely needed.

At Synchro Nationals this last week, there was a lot of safe sport discussion. I personally spoke with or listened to conversations between male coaches who span four disciplines of skating, and to a man they were concerned about what could happen to them under Safe Sport. By virtue of the sport, male coaches do sometimes touch females, including young females, especially in dance and pairs. All it takes is one vicious person with a grudge (and anyone who has been in skating knows there’s plenty of them out there) to make a complaint, and your career is over. Doesn’t matter if you are guilty of anything or not.



Safe Sport has some dumb rules, though. Or at least they are dumb as they are being interpreted. We’ve all heard stories of skaters being forced to change in public bathrooms at qualifying competitions - including at Synchro Nationals this weekend. How is that safe?

I’m not saying toss SafeSport, but there is a lot of problems with it in its current state.

As @rfisher said, it's not hard for a coach to simply not be alone with a skater, especially in synchro. If you have a witness (in synchro often other skaters, in singles/pairs/dance often other coaches/skaters) it could help protect you from false allegations.

For skaters that are in a pair - since this seems to be an issue of inappropriate relationships between pairs partners - there needs to be some sort of change. Whether it be encouraging skaters not to date their partner, having witnesses, a wider cultural change, etc. But that's different than the coach-student thing, so it needs to be figured out. I don't know if I think more rules would help - people break rules all the time - but I do think there needs to be some more guidance provided not just to the coaches but also to skaters. What SafeSport seems to be referring to seems to be less of a coach grooming a student problem (although that does happen and needs to be fixed), but a skater-to-skater problem. In that case telling the coaches is good, but telling the skaters and parents directly might have a more direct impact on the problem.

It is ridiculous that competitors at synchro competitions often have to change in public bathrooms. With more men's skaters in the sport it seems USFS now has a separate men's changing room available, but it's often very inconvenient. Generally what I've seen or heard is that it's done on a case-by-case basis. If the guy is comfortable and the girls are comfortable the guy can change in there with the girls (there's plenty of witnesses); if not he goes into the hockey bathroom, uses the men's changing room, or goes to the public bathroom. More commonly, though, everyone is now just wearing their costumes to/from the rink to minimize changing in a locker room setting. So, yeah, it's violating safesport rules, but I think it's good the rules are in place because the vast majority of skating and synchro is not men changing with women being the standard anyways nor should it be.

In Safe Sport it is called the rule of two!!! so simple, you text a student, you copy someone else, you talk or have a meeting, you have another coach with you and do it somewhere public. It's purely basic commun sense that is not just specific to skating world ... your students skaters whatever are not your friends!! you need to keep the relationship professionnal! You cannot save stupid people from themselves. If coaches are given tools to dictate how they should behave and decided not to follow those rules, or think that those rules are not for them what can people do!!

TBH it shocks me how many coaches are social media friends with their underage students. Some of the younger coaches I know even hang out with students near the rink. Even if it's a female coach with female students or even if the students are already in high school I'm always shocked by someone thinking that's appropriate.
Teachers can't friend students on social media until that student is no longer a student (graduated). Camp counselors or tutors can't friend campers/students until that person is 18+ and out of the program (although I've seen places that say not even then). Healthcare providers can't even google their patients outside of what's strictly needed for work purposes at work, let alone friend them on social media. In all those cases hanging out with them is highly unprofessional except under very particular circumstances (eg. a former student who becomes a colleague) and can lead to someone getting fired. I don't know why it's accepted in figure skating or any youth sport.

This isn't just skating - and in fact I think skating's better than some other sports about it - but travel is also highly problematic. In skating a parental chaperone (your own or another skater's parent) is generally required. My youth team required at least one chaperone in each room.
In other sports I had friends on high school travel teams for (Volleyball, Soccer, Swimming, Field Hockey) it was common to have no parents come due to the frequent travelling (usually every weekend or every other weekend during the season with plenty of 3 to 5-day-weekend tournaments thrown in there) and just to have members of the mens and womens teams mingle and mix in the hotel. In swimming especially I heard there was a LOT of drinking and partying on these trips because that's what happens when you have 10+ teens chaperoned by maybe one coach for a whole weekend (idk how the hotel rooms got booked with so few 18+ people on the trip - maybe a block under the coach's name?).
Now in pairs I don't see the same partying problem being a thing, but with frequent travel the skaters may be sharing a hotel room or may only have limited chaperones (maybe even only a coach), and I could see that leading to some very problematic situations.

 

[Karen-W]

It's not just in youth sports but in most youth clubs/organizations that these changes in chaperone requirements, the "rule of two (or more)", social media friendships, separate dressing rooms for youth/girls/boys/adults, etc are being enacted. I work with a teen/tween girls organization and the changes that have occurred in just the last dozen years are staggering. And while these rules and regulations are in place, ultimately, to protect the youth/vulnerable, they are also there to protect the coaches/mentors/chaperones/advisers from false accusations. I follow this thread and other similar discussions, to note not only the parallels but to also keep myself aware of the issues we face, as a society, with protecting our youth from unhealthy situations and relationships.

 

[lala]

@lala Of course US coaches also know about family relations, school progress, and the skaters' relationships. Those are common conversation topics and even if they weren't rink gossip would make its way around to the coach. That in itself is not problematic. What is problematic is for the coaches to get directly involved in those things. The coach is there for skating, not to be the skater's best friend, family member, or significant other.

does'nt need Safe Sport for this

 

[Tinami Amori]

Grooming can be between adults too. In the case of abuse, there are elements of power and control over a victim. Grooming means building trust so the victim can be manipulated into doing things that he/she wouldn't consent to. It is primarily to take advantage of the victim.
Here is another list of definitions and examples.
https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/grooming

Thank you! that link is very helpful. One of the key issues is that highlighted phrase you posted, about "manipulating into something one would not consent to without the manipulation".

I started watching A Very English Scandal this evening....
Stream the first episode, Tinami, for a really graphic portrayal of the process

Thanks! i saw the 3 episodes on russian channel (they were out earlier), and familiar with the story and the original book. in the TV series, yes, "grooming" is presented clearly (in real life, however, it is not so black and white, and the "victim" (Yosiffe) was, let's say, quite a character himself, with shady actions, behavior and lies. not that it excuses Thrope's actions).

Well, "grooming" is clear for me now. thank you, guys!

 

[Rogue]

In a film "Gentlemen prefer blonds", is there "grooming"? TC pretends to be a woman, and a confidant to MM, gets into her trust, develops friendship; then pretends to be a rich boy and makes her fall in love with him. Is that "grooming"?

This confused me at first because in Gentlemen Prefer Blonds, MM is doing all the seducing because she wants a rich husband or provider. Then I realized you meant Some Like It Hot.

 

[Tinami Amori]

This confused me at first because in Gentlemen Prefer Blonds, MM is doing all the seducing because she wants a rich husband or provider. Then I realized you meant Some Like It Hot.

Yes, that's what i mean... (in Russian, this film is named differently than the Hollywood title. "Some Like it hot" in named "Girls only jazz band", so the ref back to english is not always correct for me.)

 

[starrynight]

Out of interest, what is the age of consent in the USA? I think this is a source of confusion for me (particularly when talking peer to peer relationships). I am personally used to a system where it is a flat 16 years old unless your partner is a coach, teacher, religious instructor etc and then it is 18. But I know it varies all around the world and from state to state and is older/younger etc etc.

 

[Vagabond]

Out of interest, what is the age of consent in the USA?

The short answer is that it varies by state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States#State_laws

 

[starrynight]

The short answer is that it varies by state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States#State_laws

Thanks. Oh I see it is as high as 18 in some states. That helps me understand some of the comments others have been making.

On a totally unrelated topic, I have no idea how people in the USA deal with the drinking age being 21. I'd actually mostly gotten bored of nightclubs and bars by 21 so when I was that age and starting my first serious full-time job, I had it all out of my system. Not sure how we all would have handled having that world open up right at the point when serious life was meant to be starting.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Out of interest, what is the age of consent in the USA? I think this is a source of confusion for me (particularly when talking peer to peer relationships). I am personally used to a system where it is a flat 16 years old unless your partner is a coach, teacher, religious instructor etc and then it is 18. But I know it varies all around the world and from state to state and is older/younger etc etc.

It's between 16 years and 18 years. Some 16, some 17, some 18. More than half of US states is at 16.

Basically it is like this:
- you and your lover (16) are in a car, in State X where age limit is 17, sitting 1 meter from the State line. You have sex - you're illegal.

- you and your same lover (16) drive 5 meters and cross the State line, into State Y, where age limit is 16, you're legal.. go for it...

 

[Willin]

does'nt need Safe Sport for this

Yes, yes we do. Maybe not if a coach becomes a family friend, but if a coach gets into a sexual or romantic relationship (or even a friendship that involves intimacy) with a skater it's needed. If a coach gets so close or comfortable to a skater that they feel they can just barge into locker rooms when a skater is changing SafeSport is needed.

Certainly there are many, many situations where a coach and skater are close where safesport is not needed, but that doesn't mean SafeSport isn't needed at all.

Out of interest, what is the age of consent in the USA? I think this is a source of confusion for me (particularly when talking peer to peer relationships). I am personally used to a system where it is a flat 16 years old unless your partner is a coach, teacher, religious instructor etc and then it is 18. But I know it varies all around the world and from state to state and is older/younger etc etc.

As @Vagabond said it varies by state and even within states can be rather messy. Some states have Romeo & Juliet laws and laws about child marriage that further blur the lines.

In the case of power differentials (coach and skater, boss and subordinate, teacher and student) things aren't necessarily illegal as long as both individuals are of age, but specific organizations (licensing boards, professional organizations, companies, etc.) may have specific rules against them that can lead a person to be fired or lose a license/certification.

As for drinking, as long as you're not obnoxious (party/noise violations), breaking other laws (usually public intoxication, disorderly conduct, or open container in public), and being responsible about it (not drinking so much you have to go to the hospital, not drinking and driving) people generally aren't cited for it. So in the case of many of my friends their parents would buy them alcohol as long as they and their friends consumed it at their house and stayed the night to ensure they were sober when driving home. Other parents would buy alcohol and send the kids to a hotel for the night, particularly after things like prom. Sometimes older siblings would furnish the alcohol. Generally those supplying it would only get in trouble if the people drinking got in trouble (noise violation, trashing a property, DUI, disorderly conduct, etc.). Some families I knew would let high school and above aged family members have a glass of wine at the holidays. I'd say a good 75% of people I knew drank before 21. Tbh it's one of those things that's technically illegal but rarely enforced.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Willin said


.As @Vagabond

As for drinking, as long as you're not obnoxious (party/noise violations), breaking other laws (usually public intoxication, disorderly conduct, or open container in public), and being responsible about it (not drinking so much you have to go to the hospital, not drinking and driving) people generally aren't cited for it. So in the case of many of my friends their parents would buy them alcohol as long as they and their friends consumed it at their house and stayed the night to ensure they were sober when driving home. Other parents would buy alcohol and send the kids to a hotel for the night, particularly after things like prom. Sometimes older siblings would furnish the alcohol. Generally those supplying it would only get in trouble if the people drinking got in trouble (noise violation, trashing a property, DUI, disorderly conduct, etc.). Some families I knew would let high school and above aged family members have a glass of wine at the holidays. I'd say a good 75% of people I knew drank before 21. Tbh it's one of those things that's technically illegal but rarely enforced.[/QUOTE]

It is not "technically" illegal. It is TOTALLY illegal. To say irresponsible, horrid role modeling, and encouraging out of control behavior. So, in your universe, drinking is in, but SafeSport allegations are in.

Twisted world.

 

[Willin]

As It is not "technically" illegal. It is TOTALLY illegal. To say irresponsible, horrid role modeling, and encouraging out of control behavior. So, in your universe, drinking is in, but SafeSport allegations are in.

Twisted world.[/QUOTE]

I was debating whether or not it was worth it to reply to you, since you won't care about my reply or the actual realities of the situation. (And it's somewhat off topic)

Yes, I do think it does encourage out of control behavior in some situations, like the situations where parents send their kids to hotels with booze or where the parents leave the house when the kids hold a massive party the parents furnished the alcohol for or the cases where athletes go out to party together during travel competitions. All are bad and can lead to SafeSport or police reports.
But it many other situations I think it's perfectly acceptable. I know many people who didn't go through a binge drinking or party phase in college because their parents taught them how to drink in high school. When you have a glass of wine with the family every so often or have a round of beers with your friends at your house, drinking is no longer a novelty to exploit once you get to college. If your parents let you get drunk around them, you'll learn your limits so when you do get to college you'll know how many drinks you can safely have. I don't see an issue with that at all. In fact I think it's a good thing. For as many kids as I saw that drank with their parents present in high school and drank smartly in high school, I saw 10 more who weren't allowed to drink in high school and then had a lot of bad things happen to them once they got access to it in college (rape, sexual assault, hospital trips, injuries, academic probation, etc.)

 

[Tinami Amori]

If a coach gets so close or comfortable to a skater that they feel they can just barge into locker rooms when a skater is changing SafeSport is needed.

"barge into a locker room" in what situation? in men's team sports coaches barge in all the time..

Barge in by "opposite sex coach" also is not a consideration because of "same sex" attractions.

"Barging in" into any room, without knocking, by anyone in any form of relationship is RUDE and uncivilized. Parents should not barge in to their kids rooms... "Barging in" may have nothing to do with "sex", just bad manners and lack of respect for others.

I can't see how SafeSport can get involved in cases where a report is made, and yet a coach or another skater simply has no manners and "barge in" without thinking "sex".

 

[Willin]

@Tinami Amori And yet there is at least one US coach under safesport investigations for being a male coach that liked to peep on young girls changing in lockerrooms... And yes, bargining in, if it's a pattern, can be considered sexual misconduct. One time of accidentally opening a door without knocking is rude and inappropriate, but if someone doesn't learn their lesson and repeatedly does it of course there's reason for suspicion.
You may not think it has anything to do with sex, but maybe you've never heard of a thing called fetishes... Or you've never heard of hostile environments... Or you've never heard of people's perceptions being different from the reality of the situation...

 

[MacMadame]

In certain states, it is not illegal for a parent to give their child of a certain age alcohol as long as they consume it at home and in front of the parent. So the example of a parent allowing their teenaged child to have a glass of wine at a holiday dinner, in at least 30 states, that's not illegal.

As with anything, it varies by state:

http://www.legalflip.com/Article.aspx?id=20&pageid=94

All the rest @Willin cited is illegal and IMO completely irresponsible.

 

[Tinami Amori]

@Tinami Amori And yet there is at least one US coach under safesport investigations for being a male coach that liked to peep on young girls changing in lockerrooms... And yes, bargining in, if it's a pattern, can be considered sexual misconduct.

... peeping and barging in are different stories... peeping in most cases is about "sex" (unless one is a private detective collecting some evidence) and barging in may have nothing to do with sex, just bad manners.

Coach barges into a locker room: https://media.giphy.com/media/26n7aXjOKeStH78v6/giphy-downsized-large.gif

.. and that is far different then a young skater complaining that "his/her coach keeps opening the changing room door peeking in when he or she is undressing".

I have a problem (so far) with lack of set criteria "what should be reported" and how it is defined. There seems to be a lot left to "interpretation" and "personal morals" and "personal view about sex".

I also have an impression that even in 21-st century, in progressive USA:
- "sex" is still considered to be some "big deal".
- that particularly "girl's" virginity is something valuable.
- that "a man takes sex, and woman gives sex".
- that to a female "sex is emotional issue rather than just fun" and to a man "it is nature's call".
- that females should "guard themselves against men who just want to have sex" without any assumption that "females may also just want a boy for a quick sex".
- that a quick affair "is wrong for a woman", and "ok for a man, and that's what they want".

Do "protectors of the young girls" ever consider a possibility that a 17 year old female, can have 3 boyfriends outside a rink, and still have a quick roll in a hay, with a 30-something coach... maybe just for experience, or conquest to add his name to her little black book?