Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

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VGThuy

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I think that’s why punishments against the state with actual bite that punish the entire system even if it means banning or suspending the state’s athletes for a good number of years to affect a “generation” of athletes are more appropriate than just acting as if it’s an individual problem because it’s the state that has created this culture of financial vulnerability and exploitation. And then to use that to create an “athletic army” to promote state pride and thus propaganda is also another gross aspect. Using the very few who make it to the highest class and give them all the materialistic and status-related rewards to reap for the purpose of encouraging new generations of vulnerable children to go through this same system…yeah. A widespread problem cannot be dealt with by divvying up individual punishments. Of course, sanctions can be argued to hurt those vulnerable more but the cost of acceptance or just reducing it as “reality” doesn’t help matters and actively encourages it.
 
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MacMadame

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Whether Russia was represented de jure or officially is besides the point. Belaboring the argument that Russia wasn’t represented at the Olympics even though Russia was named in the “Olympics Athletes from Russia” or “Russian Olympic Committee” is just intentionally arguing a point that doesn’t matter as the Russian people have celebrated the results with national spirit and fervor shows that they know what’s up. You even labeled this situation as “anti-Russian” sentiment. All of that shows was Russia was represented de facto.
They are trying to have it both ways. "There was no Russian team" and "You are anti-Russian to complain about that team. You know, the one that isn't the Russian team."

The team had Russia in the name and there were no athletes on that team from any other country except Russia. It was the Russian team just with a different name.
 

caseyedwards

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They are trying to have it both ways. "There was no Russian team" and "You are anti-Russian to complain about that team. You know, the one that isn't the Russian team."

The team had Russia in the name and there were no athletes on that team from any other country except Russia. It was the Russian team just with a different name.
The thing that’s clear is that people just don’t hate Russia the country but Russians the people. Russia was banned. Russia gets no credit. No Russian flags were allowed. If you had a Russian flag you were expelled from the Olympics. That’s hatred of Russia the county. But that’s not good enough. All Russian people have to be banned. That’s hatred of russians the people.
 

MacMadame

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The thing that’s clear
The thing that is clear is that you love to exaggerate. And lack nuanced thinking.

If Russian athletes can participate in the Olympics on a team with Russia in the name and even have a team uniform with the colors of their flag (as happened in 2022), why does the Russian state have any incentive to stop their state-sponsored doping program? They clearly do not.
 

airgelaal

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I think that’s why state-sanctioned punishments with actual bite are more appropriate because it’s the state that has created this culture of financial vulnerability and exploitation. And then to use that to create an “athletic army” to promote state pride and thus propaganda is also another gross aspect. Using the very few who make it to the highest class and give them all the materialistic and status-related rewards to reap for the purpose of encouraging new generations of vulnerable children to go through this same system…yeah. A widespread problem cannot be dealt with by divvying up individual punishments. Of course, sanctions can be argued to hurt those vulnerable more but the cost of acceptance or just reducing it as “reality” doesn’t help matters and actively encourages it.
On the other hand, this gives an extremely dangerous signal to the whole world. Any athlete can do anything and hide behind his status as an athlete. What example can they set for children around the world? What example do they set for athletes around the world? On the one hand, they declare that you cannot remain silent about the facts of abuse, and on the other hand, they reward for silence.
Doping is not the only problem in russian sports. This is simply a paradise for physical and mental abuse. And naturally, no one will think about solving these problems as long as sports are used by propaganda. russia and Kamila do not need the CAS decision, since they decided everything themselves. Why investigate when you can blame everything on the evil West. And, as for me, if a tough decision had been made at least once over the last 10 years, significantly fewer people would have suffered. And not only in russia.
 

Vagabond

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Heck, it's difficult enough for most people to just uproot their lives and relocate within their own country, much less to a whole other country.
Plenty, if not most, of the elite Russian skaters did uproot themselves from distant provincial cities and towns to train at elite training centers in and around Moscow and St. Petersburg.

One can either say that if they were able to do it once, they should be able to do it again or question the mindset of the entire Russian skating world that purportedly entraps these people.
 

Karen-W

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Plenty, if not most, of the elite Russian skaters did uproot themselves from distant provincial cities and towns to train at elite training centers in and around Moscow and St. Petersburg.

One can either say that if they were able to do it once, they should be able to do it again or question the mindset of the entire Russian skating world that purportedly entraps these people.
The circumstances are NOT the same and you are trying to create a false equivalency between a) athletes moving to another part of their own country for better coaching/training opportunities, and b) people moving to another country to protest the actions of their government/fellow citizens.

But, let's find an equivalent hypothetical scenario, shall we?

In 2024, if Trump is reelected, are you prepared to pack your family (spouse, children, parents, siblings, siblings' spouses, nieces, nephews, and grandparents) up and move to... Canada or some other country with a similar living standard and language as the US?

Let's say you answer "yes" to that question - you are willing and have the financial resources to pay for that... Would all those family members WANT to move to Canada? Let's assume that the Canadian government offers amnesty and work visas for everyone fleeing the US in this scenario, but would there be jobs available that would equal the income they're leaving behind here? Doubtful. And, what if, things got so bad here that any able-bodied American men were unable to return to the US even for a brief visit for fear of being conscripted or jailed?

It is all well and good to say "but they can leave..." and ignore the emotional and personal ties that are much harder to sever. You're answers are easy - in Utopia. But the real world, whether it's Russia or the US or any other country, isn't Utopia.
 

kwanfan1818

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How many of us think that Facebook did immeasurable and unconscionable damage to American democracy during the 2016 campaign and election?

How many of us who do think that have given up Facebook, Instagram, and anything else Mark Zuckerberg owns? Even if it means they can't convince grandma to DM on another platform or it's such a bother to move that private group to some other platform?

It's a pretty low bar, but I'm guessing not many of us.
 

skatingguy

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How many of us think that Facebook did immeasurable and unconscionable damage to American democracy during the 2016 campaign and election?

How many of us who do think that have given up Facebook, Instagram, and anything else Mark Zuckerberg owns? Even if it means they can't convince grandma to DM on another platform or it's such a bother to move that private group to some other platform?

It's a pretty low bar, but I'm guessing not many of us.
I never had Facebook, but I have given up Instagram, and Twitter (X) - it's not much, but as consumer of social media it's the only thing I can do.
 

Orm Irian

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How many of us think that Facebook did immeasurable and unconscionable damage to American democracy during the 2016 campaign and election?
I'd argue Rupert Murdoch did considerably more, but that's off-topic for this thread.

Dominina/Shabilin's OD was indeed monstrously racist. Stating so does not constitute hatred of all Russians, just disgust at the creation and performance of that one program.
 

VGThuy

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On the other hand, this gives an extremely dangerous signal to the whole world. Any athlete can do anything and hide behind his status as an athlete. What example can they set for children around the world? What example do they set for athletes around the world? On the one hand, they declare that you cannot remain silent about the facts of abuse, and on the other hand, they reward for silence.
Doping is not the only problem in russian sports. This is simply a paradise for physical and mental abuse. And naturally, no one will think about solving these problems as long as sports are used by propaganda. russia and Kamila do not need the CAS decision, since they decided everything themselves. Why investigate when you can blame everything on the evil West. And, as for me, if a tough decision had been made at least once over the last 10 years, significantly fewer people would have suffered. And not only in russia.
Just to be clear, I’m talking in cases where the issue is so widespread and specific to a state-sponsored and perpetuated system of cheating and abuse. Sanctioning the state will also result in banning athletes, coaching staff, etc. who have any active support or meaningful ties to that state and/or were actors of that system for a good number of years as deemed appropriate given the severity of the system and the harm.
 

Primorskaya

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The thing that’s clear is that people just don’t hate Russia the country but Russians the people. Russia was banned. Russia gets no credit. No Russian flags were allowed. If you had a Russian flag you were expelled from the Olympics. That’s hatred of Russia the county. But that’s not good enough. All Russian people have to be banned. That’s hatred of russians the people.
Real question: what does it bring you to do this? You must get some sort of gratification from it since you keep doing it. By "it" I mean repeating partisan statements that are demonstrably false. You're not even Russian I think, so what's the urge?
 

On My Own

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Real question: what does it bring you to do this? You must get some sort of gratification from it since you keep doing it. By "it" I mean repeating partisan statements that are demonstrably false. You're not even Russian I think, so what's the urge?
He's a troll?

Most people troll others for either revenge, for attention seeking, for boredom and simply for personal amusement. For some, they could be hitting out at people who are successful, happy, and enjoying their life because maybe the troll's life isn't like that.

 

Mafke

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people just don’t hate Russia the country but Russians the people

Before the scale of russian cheating was exposed in 2015 I didn't think much of russian athletes one way or another, I really liked some, really didn't care for others

Before february 24, 2022 I never thought much about russia the country or russians, the people, one way or another...

Now I have a reflexive aversion to anything russian (can no longer do things like watch russian tv shows or listen to russian songs both of which I used to do occasionally).

russians worked very hard to make people dislike them and I've had it up to here with their whining about it... I just want them away
 

caseyedwards

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Real question: what does it bring you to do this? You must get some sort of gratification from it since you keep doing it. By "it" I mean repeating partisan statements that are demonstrably false. You're not even Russian I think, so what's the urge?
Facts and truth

Before the scale of russian cheating was exposed in 2015 I didn't think much of russian athletes one way or another, I really liked some, really didn't care for others

Before february 24, 2022 I never thought much about russia the country or russians, the people, one way or another...

Now I have a reflexive aversion to anything russian (can no longer do things like watch russian tv shows or listen to russian songs both of which I used to do occasionally).

russians worked very hard to make people dislike them and I've had it up to here with their whining about it... I just want them away

Would you say all the doping Americans like Armstrong and Jones and gatlin and all Americas invasions of countries like Iraq were efforts at getting disliked?!?!? Americans can dope and invade and no one says anything ever about it. Same thing with China. Russia held to ridiculous standard
 
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VGThuy

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Facts and truth



Would say all the doping Americans like Armstrong and Jones and gatlin and all Americas invasions of countries like Iraq were efforts and getting disliked?!?!? American can dope and invade and no one says anything ever about it. Same thing with China. Russia held to ridiculous standard
Nobody? Weren’t Armstrong and Jones banned and stripped of the relevant results? Weren’t they big scandals in the US? Didn’t they lose every endorsement deal and their reputation so tarnished that they haven’t been able to reenter public life to cash in on their “accomplishments” and or existing fame?

And about half the voting population publicly outcried American’s invasion of Iraq and it was one of the talking points Obama used against Hillary Clinton which was effective enough help propel him to the Democratic nomination. And then his lack of exiting was a much-cited criticism. Not to mention we now have a political landscape where increasing influence of the far right and far left are united about American intervention in a broad sense (the details are where they differ there) among a few other things despite being very disagreeable on key core policy positions. But the big fervor of American’s lack of confidence is government is the history of the two major parties partaking in what those voters label “neoliberal agendas” and selling out the American public for profit.

China got their 2000 Olympic medal stripped due to one athlete being unusually public about the age faking.

Of course with both major superpowers, both enjoy latitude and tolerance with their power, but the IOC bent over backwards with Russia for years in similar fashion and it has escalated to this situation.
 

On My Own

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Would say all the doping Americans like Armstrong and Jones and gatlin... American can dope ... and no one says anything ever about it.
Ignoring the fact that, whether you like it or not, the Russian team WAS competing all these years, the reason for its current ban isn't doping. It got banned on an international level because of the war it's inflicting onto Ukraine currently.

Literally who was quiet about Lance Armstrong?

Same thing with China.
I must have dreamt up the Chinese swimmer who was banned for doping.
 

DreamSkates

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Are you being dense on purpose to make a point? Yes, there was a Russian team. It even had Russia in the name. Let's not pretend that technicalities made a difference in this.
I thought there was no Russian team but Russians competing under a general flag as Olympic athletes due to previous doping consequences. Which to me is a joke allowing athlete from a country found guilty of doping. They should be barred from Olympics for one or 2 cycles. No consequences, no motivation to clean things up.
 

On My Own

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