Royalty Thread #11: Putting the "Fun" in Dysfunctional

[becca]

Criticisms don't have to be statements of "you're not all white" or "you weren't born here" to be based on race or nationality. You're missing my point about how not growing up in a certain kind of setting is always in the background because the outsider doesn't have that same context.

If someone is already being perceived as an outsider, they're going to be more closely scrutinized, and what might be written off as mistakes or misunderstandings by others might be characterized as worse if that person does the same thing.

Kate has been criticized, yes, and I do recall some comments suggesting that her parents were "common" because they didn't have titles and their money was from running their company, not inherited. And she didn't grow up on an estate or go to a posh school. But she is white and she is British. So she has more cultural context in which to fit into the royals than Meghan does. That's not a criticism of Meghan, it's just a reality.

Why yes. But the point is that it the outsider is shown making an attempt to learn the culture and the ropes it can go a long way with people. Prince Phillip wasn’t British born.
Foreign royal marriages were common.

I am not saying there weren’t going to be growing pains but I am coming to a 1000 year old monarchy and I am going to be a disrupter really isn’t the best attitude to have.

It would have been better to quietly learn the culture and the ropes. And that was something she did have a responsibility to do in this case.

My thing is not everything is about Harry and Meghan for example there is the British people’s opinion about paying for security for non working royals and the attitudes could affect monarchy as a whole.
Which is financial plans shouldn’t have been published on websites before agreements
There is the fact that Harry’s grandfather is 98 and just got out of the hospital and Queen Elizabeth is getting 93 as well. Did they really need this public dispute.

And if they are going to be in Canada for months why not bring Archie to see his Great Grandparents.
Add in the threats now out there of tell all interview.

 

[canbelto]

I keep saying: race is the first, last and only thing people see about others. That is true of Meghan and Archie.

 

[becca]

I keep saying: race is the first, last and only thing people see about others. That is true of Meghan and Archie.

Really? If that is how you see the world it is pretty sad.

 

[MacMadame]

If Harry and Meghan aren’t doing royal duties why should the British have to pay?

There is nothing in their announcement that says they aren't going to do royal duties. They said they will support the Queen both when they are in the UK 6 months of the year and also while in Canada.

They said they are stepping down from senior royal duties. Not from all royal duties.

 

[overedge]

Why yes. But the point is that it the outsider is shown making an attempt to learn the culture and the ropes it can go a long way with people. Prince Phillip wasn’t British born.
Foreign royal marriages were common.

Prince Philip grew up in a titled family and had numerous royals as relatives. Royals from other countries who married into the UK royal family are also royals. They grew up in that setting; they know those kind of people and the "right" way to act. That is not even close to being the same as someone from another country with no monarchy or system of peerage marrying into the UK royal family - someone who also grew up in a family that wasn't rich.

You can "attempt to learn the culture and the ropes" and do your best to fit in, but if you don't have the same background and the same understanding of how that culture works, you are never going to be completely successful at fitting in. And people who do fit in are going to look more critically at you, especially if they think you are trying to "get above your raising" and act in a way that is really not you.

 

[canbelto]

@becca it's sad but true. I'm not white. I fully expect that many people will never see beyond the fact that I'm not white. I can't tell you how many times I've been told "where are you FROM?" when I say I was born in the USA. So therefore I think it's even worse for someone like Meghan. The amount of racist trolls in social media makes me think that there's a large percentage of the UK population who will never accept her because she's not white.

 

[overedge]

Really? If that is how you see the world it is pretty sad.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but that is true of a lot of people. (Not saying that @canbelto is a racist, just that they are describing a reality about how the world works.)

 

[canbelto]

Exhibit A: whenever I show people my cat or dog I can't tell you how many times people have said "but I thought Chinese people eat cats and dogs."

 

[Coco]

As a white woman, I am learning that whiteness is so often the norm, the default, the center of it all, it can be very hard to see prejudice and racism, and hard to understand the impact of countless slights like the one canbelto mentioned.

 

[canbelto]

As a white woman, I am learning that whiteness is so often the norm, the default, the center of it all, it can be very hard to see prejudice and racism, and hard to understand the impact of countless slights like the one canbelto mentioned.

An example: every member of the BRF has been white. 100% white. All the Ascot Gavpyte and polo events are whites-only events by default.

 

[becca]

Exhibit A: whenever I show people my cat or dog I can't tell you how many times people have said "but I thought Chinese people eat cats and dogs."

Wow! I know someone saw my Dads wife speaking Spanish to my Colombian American one year old half sister and they asked me if she was American she is beautiful she looks American. I was in shock! That was in Chicago. I actually live in a city in Texas where well I am the minority. Never occurred to me that wasn’t an American look.


Here is the thing though I worked in the past in City of Chicago schools where all the time when I would tell a child to stop acting up I would get accused of racism.

In my head I would be like what do you think I would let a white kid act like this (there were no white kids in the class)

I can tell you how frustrated it was when everything became about race When your not thinking about race at all. And I worry how those kids are going to be successful if every time they are criticized it’s about race.

 

[mag]

I was talking to a friend today who moved here from Britain. She said one of the toughest things to get used to is the food and grocery shopping. She said it was totally overwhelming and reduced her to tears on more than one occasion. Canada may be in the commonwealth, but our restaurants and grocery stores are SO different. I remember reading somewhere that Meghan ordered their groceries online. She may have really struggled with some of the really basic stuff. Going to a grocery store and not knowing the differences the names of things. Not pronouncing things the way the store clerks do. How she would say “tomato,” is it “squash” or “pumpkin,” “lemonade” or “lemon squash.” Dealing with staff, is it “tea” “dinner” or “supper.” Is it a “family room” “living room” “lounge” or some other name. “Couch” “Chesterfield” or “Sofa?” What about “duvets” “bed spreads” or “coverlet?” “Hoover” or “vacuum cleaner?” “Ground beef” or “mince?” “Bathroom” “washroom” “restroom” “toilet” “loo?” It may seem ridiculous but there were a lot of changes in a very short time.

I am sure there are a 1000 other differences that we can’t even think of. Even stuff like walking on the right which becomes walking on the left. It all sounds so small and insignificant, but when you are already overwhelmed and have just had a baby, it could cause severe homesickness. Perhaps getting back to Canada and feeling in control is what she needs. I am not saying this is the whole problem, more of a contributing factor.

 

[canbelto]

Most behaviors in school are heavily based on acceptable "white" behaviors. For example school uniforms in charter schools are usually: no sneakers, no hoodies, no hats, no logo t-shirts. Those are all clothing associated for better or worse with people of color. Hair is another big thing. Many schools have "no dreadlocks" rules. I saw this all the time with Meghan -- people saying her hair was "sloppy." It's not white hair. It won;'t have the smooth texture of Kate's.

 

[taf2002]

It would have been better to quietly learn the culture and the ropes. And that was something she did have a responsibility to do in this case.

Better for who? Or whom? Actually it appeared that was what Meghan was doing that at first. During that time she was being feted by some & reviled by others. When she became pregnant it never let up.

How many lives do you think Meghan has, other than the one she's living now? Are she & Harry supposed to give up their lives to the Firm & just toe the line no matter what they want?

 

[canbelto]

Speaking of food is it true that Royals can’t eat in public? I read that they’re not supposed to be seen eating.

 

[becca]

Better for who? Or whom? Actually it appeared that was what Meghan was doing that at first. During that time she was being feted by some & reviled by others. When she became pregnant it never let up.

How many lives do you think Meghan has, other than the one she's living now? Are she & Harry supposed to give up their lives to the Firm & just toe the line no matter what they want?

Learn the culture of being royalty since she was being literally paid to represent Britain.

 

[canbelto]

Learn the culture of being royalty since she was being literally paid to represent Britain.

but the culture of England is so classist that how could she learn? She wasn’t born into any of the classes.

 

[mag]

Most behaviors in school are heavily based on acceptable "white" behaviors. For example school uniforms in charter schools are usually: no sneakers, no hoodies, no hats, no logo t-shirts. Those are all clothing associated for better or worse with people of color. Hair is another big thing. Many schools have "no dreadlocks" rules. I saw this all the time with Meghan -- people saying her hair was "sloppy." It's not white hair. It won;'t have the smooth texture of Kate's.

This is a huge issue. It is also an issue for girls who are often held to quite a different standard than boys. The hair issue drives me crazy. Straight hair is the norm. Anything else is seen as juvenile or messy or not professional. It is exponentially worse for people of colour, but it is also tough on those of us who have naturally crazy curly hair. I am encouraged a bit by the natural hair movement which is encouraging people to wear their hair in its natural state. Of course that comes with its own crazies who feel the need to shame people who choose not to. Don’t get me started on how tall people are always told to scrunch down in photos (therefore looking ridiculous) instead of asking short people to stand of something, or better yet, just let everyone be their own height.

The fact is we live in a very conformist culture. The more standard deviations you are from the mean, the tougher it gets. What is interesting, is that in many ways Meghan is a perfect candidate for the job. A few morning show hosts and guests have mentioned that. She is a fabulous public speaker, she is great with crowds, she has energy and appears to love meeting new people.

I realize this may be unpopular, but I think another piece of the puzzle is the being a member of an ensemble cast where you will very rarely get your own story arc and those arcs will be fewer and further apart the older you get. Where you must always hit your mark, but never, ever upstage the stars, and where you have some creative control, any changes to the plan must always be run upstairs for approval could be difficult for a middle aged adult who is used to running their own life to get used to. I am not sure Meghan completely understood that when she signed on. Harry admits that he didn’t want to scare her away.

 

[becca]

Most behaviors in school are heavily based on acceptable "white" behaviors. For example school uniforms in charter schools are usually: no sneakers, no hoodies, no hats, no logo t-shirts. Those are all clothing associated for better or worse with people of color. Hair is another big thing. Many schools have "no dreadlocks" rules. I saw this all the time with Meghan -- people saying her hair was "sloppy." It's not white hair. It won;'t have the smooth texture of Kate's.

Since I was working as a substitute the last thing I cared about was dread Locks sneakers hoodies. I just wanted the kids to not act out so that the entire class could learn.

Plus a lot of those kids were poor and didn’t have much so the last thing I would ever do is criticize their clothes or hair

I always thought Meghan had gorgeous hair.

For the record I am not saying Meghan should become someone she is not. But if you are going to chose to represent a country as part of their royal family their should be some level of learning the culture and at very least refraining from things like I want to be a disrupter.

 

[overedge]

Further to @mag point, I do some freelance work for companies in the UK. They're really nice to work for (otherwise I wouldn't be doing it) but even the ways that co-workers communicate with each other and supervisors communicate to their staff are very different. Not rude or sexist or anything like that - just that ideas and directions are framed differently.

And it's very hard to read the nuances as an outsider. In my regular job, I can tell e.g. if someone's being passive-aggressive and respond accordingly. But if a UK colleague says something like "I'm afraid I can't do that" I know he's not going to do it, but I also don't know if the subtext is e.g. "I really am sorry that I can't help you" or "what a ridiculous idea, don't ever mention that to me again". And this is with me having a British family, so I have some experience with the cultural context and expressions.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I talk about how hard it is to learn a different culture. It's not just smiling and being polite while you watch what's going on. It's much more than that.

Now imagine someone like Meghan going into a different country and a family culture with hundreds (or thousands) of years of history and ritual. Not to mention the public and media attention as well. Learning how to get along successfully in that context would be hugely challenging, and I can see that it would be very easy to get frustrated and want it to change, or want to get out.

 

[becca]

Further to @mag point, I do some freelance work for companies in the UK. They're really nice to work for (otherwise I wouldn't be doing it) but even the ways that co-workers communicate with each other and supervisors communicate to their staff are very different. Not rude or sexist or anything like that - just that ideas and directions are framed differently.

And it's very hard to read the nuances as an outsider. In my regular job, I can tell e.g. if someone's being passive-aggressive and respond accordingly. But if a UK colleague says something like "I'm afraid I can't do that" I know he's not going to do it, but I also don't know if the subtext is e.g. "I really am sorry that I can't help you" or "what a ridiculous idea, don't ever mention that to me again". And this is with me having a British family, so I have some experience with the cultural context and expressions.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I talk about how hard it is to learn a different culture. It's not just smiling and being polite while you watch what's going on. It's much more than that.

Now imagine someone like Meghan going into a different country and a family culture with hundreds (or thousands) of years of history and ritual. Not to mention the public and media attention as well. Learning how to get along successfully in that context would be hugely challenging, and I can see that it would be very easy to get frustrated and want it to change, or want to get out.

I am not saying it would be easy.

 

[starrynight]

They’ve been prepping for this since before June 2019 (when the trademarks were filed), which was only 12 months after they married.

So I honestly think moving overseas was the plan all along.

I think this is why Harry chose to marry someone from a foreign country with no connections to the UK. If he’d married local, he could never have run like this.

 

[AxelAnnie]

See, I don't see anything wrong with this. I guess it's against the Royal rules, but I think this is exactly the kind of thing that Meghan wants to be involved with and is being stifled by "The Firm." Except for people who like to kill elephants, what is there to object to?

I keep saying: race is the first, last and only thing people see about others. That is true of Meghan and Archie.

WOW! Glad I am not living in your head.

 

[canbelto]

This is a huge issue. It is also an issue for girls who are often held to quite a different standard than boys. The hair issue drives me crazy. Straight hair is the norm. Anything else is seen as juvenile or messy or not professional. It is exponentially worse for people of colour, but it is also tough on those of us who have naturally crazy curly hair. I am encouraged a bit by the natural hair movement which is encouraging people to wear their hair in its natural state. Of course that comes with its own crazies who feel the need to shame people who choose not to. Don’t get me started on how tall people are always told to scrunch down in photos (therefore looking ridiculous) instead of asking short people to stand of something, or better yet, just let everyone be their own height.

The fact is we live in a very conformist culture. The more standard deviations you are from the mean, the tougher it gets. What is interesting, is that in many ways Meghan is a perfect candidate for the job. A few morning show hosts and guests have mentioned that. She is a fabulous public speaker, she is great with crowds, she has energy and appears to love meeting new people.

I realize this may be unpopular, but I think another piece of the puzzle is the being a member of an ensemble cast where you will very rarely get your own story arc and those arcs will be fewer and further apart the older you get. Where you must always hit your mark, but never, ever upstage the stars, and where you have some creative control, any changes to the plan must always be run upstairs for approval could be difficult for a middle aged adult who is used to running their own life to get used to. I am not sure Meghan completely understood that when she signed on. Harry admits that he didn’t want to scare her away.

the ironic thing is Kate has very curly hair which she straightens relentlessly. But sometimes in hot humid temperatures her curly hair comes back.

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but for black women straigjt shiny hair is really an impossibility. Unfortunately many school dress codes still mention “neat” hair as a requirement.

 

[Polaris]

The video of Harry pressing Bob Iger to give Megan a Disney voice-over job is so awkward it is cringeworthy. Iger looks like he can't wait to get out of there.

 

[puglover]

Perhaps it is a matter of degree but Meghan is hardly the first royal to be criticized regarding her looks. Princess Anne even jokes about the many references to her having a "horse face". Her hair styles are also not considered attractive or stylish. Beatrice and Eugenie have been laughed at and ridiculed for their clothing choices. I think part of the relentless pursuit of Harry and Meghan by the press is because she is such a beautiful and photogenic woman. If she was more of a plain jane those photos would not sell nearly as well. Having either Meghan or Kate on the cover of a magazine is likely a huge boon to sales.

 

[mag]

the ironic thing is Kate has very curly hair which she straightens relentlessly. But sometimes in hot humid temperatures her curly hair comes back.

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images.app.goo.gl

but for black women straigjt shiny hair is really an impossibility. Unfortunately many school dress codes still mention “neat” hair as a requirement.

I would love to see Kate with her natural curls. It will never happen though. The claws come out on sites like what Kate wore as soon as her hair is deemed “too curly. People also seem to hate both hairnets and flyaways which I find a bit confusing.

School dress codes, IMHO, are very much based on the old white man / old boy idea of what people should wear. The sooner they are gone, the better. I had one of my better rants when a teacher told my dd that her wearing a tank top on an extremely hot day “distracted the boys.”

 

[canbelto]

I would love to see Kate with her natural curls. It will never happen though. The claws come out on sites like what Kate wore as soon as her hair is deemed “too curly. People also seem to hate both hairnets and flyaways which I find a bit confusing.

School dress codes, IMHO, are very much based on the old white man / old boy idea of what people should wear. The sooner they are gone, the better. I had one of my better rants when a teacher told my dd that her wearing a tank top on an extremely hot day “distracted the boys.”

I once was scolded by a school principal for wearing a sleeveless dress. “But it’s 98 degrees outside and the AC in my room is broken.” The principal looked perturbed for a moment and then said “we can get you a fan.”

 

[starrynight]

The UK have school uniforms.

 

[overedge]

I am not saying it would be easy.

While you're criticizing her for not trying hard enough to learn the ropes, or for jumping ahead with things before she fully understands how royals are supposed to behave.

You're also completely missing the point that she may never be able to adapt, and not for lack of trying.