Ross Miner Out Of Olympic Team (OFFICIAL)

[berthesghost]

Don’t you think it’s a bit of an exaggeration to say Jason struggles with “triples”? Yes, he bombed his FS here. Yes he underperformed this season and specifically, struggled with the 3A and 4T. But if he couldn’t generally do all of his triples and do them well most of the time, he would never have made it as far as he has.

yes. I was speaking of the 3x which would have held anyone back in the 90s. COP may allow people to leave a 3r off here or there but how can a guy be “elite” in 2018 without a reliable 3x. But my point was how can quads be a realistic possibility for a guy who hasn’t a strong 3x? I don’t think he’s lazy. I just don’t think jumps are his strength so why get a dig in when he’s only showcasing his strengths like everyone else.

 

[Tavi]

yes. I was speaking of the 3x which would have held anyone back in the 90s. COP may allow people to leave a 3r off here or there but how can a guy be “elite” in 2018 without a reliable 3x. But my point was how can quads be a realistic possibility for a guy who hasn’t a strong 3x? I don’t think he’s lazy. I just don’t think jumps are his strength so why get a dig in when he’s only showcasing his strengths like everyone else.

I don’t disagree with your basic idea that people should showcase their strengths, but I think Jason already does that with his programs, which showcase his skating skills, flexibility, and ability to do difficult footwork. At the same time, I think he strives to improve his weaknesses.

If you compare this year to last year when he was healthy (2017 Lombardia, SLC, Skate America, Worlds), you’ll see that last year his 3As were consistently good (+GOE 1.50/2.00), and he was making progress with 4T. It’s not clear why he struggled so much this year. But I don’t think a consistent 3A or 4T is out of reach for him.

 

[Skittl1321]

yes. I was speaking of the 3x which would have held anyone back in the 90s. COP may allow people to leave a 3r off here or there but how can a guy be “elite” in 2018 without a reliable 3x. But my point was how can quads be a realistic possibility for a guy who hasn’t a strong 3x? I don’t think he’s lazy. I just don’t think jumps are his strength so why get a dig in when he’s only showcasing his strengths like everyone else.

That's a great question. What's wrong with the rest of the men's field that Jason manages to beat so many of them so often?

 

[giselle23]

In the end, when evaluating a skater's record over his or her career, a silver medal at Nationals is worth a lot. Tonya Harding was on two Olympic teams and failed to medal either time. Does that matter or do her medals at Nationals and Worlds and other events mean more? I think career success is measured more by winning than making the team.

 

[kwanfan1818]

"Quality of skate" is subjective.
There is no such metric.

And, again I disagree. There are qualitative metrics.

We have various indicators of quality of elements- such as GOE for quality of technical elements or PCS.

Again, I disagree. Those are the metrics.

Which is why you can break down a skaters' BOW to try to predict who has the best chance to do the best at the Olympics, which is nominally their criteria for making the decision.

If someone claims Miner should have been considered more highly because of "quality" of his skate, then you can pull out the actual metrics, evaluate them, and say they shouldn't merit additional consideration. That is much more objective than saying that someone's 5th at GPA should merit higher consideration than someone else's bronze at GP B or CS 1, because the fields at the latter were okay, when the GP A field included half of GPF.

But I still don't understand why one would care what the % increase over base value of TES is vs what the actual TES is. I'd much rather send the guy with the highest score than the guy who has better GOE and a low score.

The guy with the highest score might have an outlier competition, like Mordovian Ornament, with a particularly forgiving tech panel, having hit all of his jumps for the first time ever, he scored 20 points below his three other scores, and his PCS may be sitting in the mid-7's. Whereas another skater might have an average 15 points above the other guy's average, but can be counted on to get his levels, high PCS even if he falters on jumps, and monster +GOE in any given competition. Or the guy with the highest score may be trending downwards.

 

[Skittl1321]

One of the reasons a panel looks at the body of work IS because of outlier competitions. Like, say, nationals.

We have no idea if Ross is trending upwards. One good competition does not make a trend. I guess if he wins 4CCs we will see he is, and maybe USFS will have to admit they made a mistake.

 

[aftershocks]

Would you have had an issue if Vincent was left off the Olympic team in favor of Adam?

It's not clear if this was a rhetorical question from you, a general question to everyone, or addressed to me in particular, since you posted it on page 35 in this thread directly after one of my posts.

I do not think there's any mystery about who I felt should be on the Olympic team on the basis of what happened in the men's fp. I've stated it plenty of times in several threads here. Going into Nationals, like many fans, I felt that Nathan, Adam and Jason might have the best chance to make the team. But anything can happen in figure skating, and it did. Under the circumstances of Ross' silver medal position and his two clean & rousing performances (he was the only top male skater to skate two clean performances, and Nathan skated fairly solidly as well), I would have chosen Nathan, Ross and Adam for the team.

Vincent did not have great performances in either sp or fp. He has great talent and very promising potential, but he's still young and he needs to develop more power and maturity. Since he did not perform very well during the season, coupled with not having clean, complete performances at Nationals, I would have sent Vincent to 4CCs and Worlds, and Ross to the Olympics with Nathan and Adam.

I also believe that Vincent's PCS were too high, and that Adam should have been slightly in front of Vincent in bronze medal position anyway. And then USFS would have been able to send the podium without all the controversy. It's really not about team medals nor about singles medals at the Olympics, because with Nathan and Adam competing in the team event, neither Ross nor Vincent would be needed as the third man.

IMHO, Ross had an Olympic-worthy set of performances. Isn't that what the Olympics is about -- rewarding an athlete who put heart, soul, sweat, tears and belief together and performed his heart out? Adam did that in the sp and nearly in the fp. Ross did it in both programs. Nathan was steady and capable even being a bit ill, and it's apparent what he can do with his amazing talent. Vincent is still learning and trying to prove himself, and he will have many more opportunities to do so. The selection should have been between Vincent and Adam in any case after the way the event was scored and the way the athletes performed overall.

 

[Jarrett]

One of the reasons a panel looks at the body of work IS because of outlier competitions. Like, say, nationals.

We have no idea if Ross is trending upwards. One good competition does not make a trend. I guess if he wins 4CCs we will see he is, and maybe USFS will have to admit they made a mistake.

I doubt USFSA or any sports body would admit they made a mistake. If anything they would take credit for inspiring him to skate his best since it is his last competition maybe ever. That said, looking at the entries he won't even be top 6.

 

[aftershocks]

Some people here are really grasping at straws for the argument for Ross.

That's your contention and perception. The way Ross skated and the quality of his talent speaks for itself and therefore no argument is needed by anyone here to prove anything on his behalf, and certainly no 'grasping at straws.' Looking at it through your lens, it's then possible to claim that people with negative feelings and expectations against Ross are 'grasping at straws' to support a bonehead USFS decision. As the silver medalist with two clean and wonderful performances, Ross deserved an Olympic berth, along with Nathan and Adam.

People are talking back and forth in this thread, sharing their own opinions, but none of us here have any viable say in what happens anyway. Unless there are USFS members here who were on the selection committee and are now posting in order to build an 'argument' for what was a difficult decision, but also a very unfair and controversial outcome due to USFS' own ineptness.

In the local broadcast video interview it was reported that Ross has not decided whether he will compete again, in the wake of the selection committee's decision. Therefore, Ross apparently hasn't yet made a decision about 4CCs.

 

[Skittl1321]

I doubt USFSA or any sports body would admit they made a mistake. If anything they would take credit for inspiring him to skate his best since it is his last competition maybe ever. That said, looking at the entries he won't even be top 6.

No, I neither think Ross will win, nor will USFS ever make a mistake. But if he does win; it will certainly appear the federation made a huge mistake.

 

[Jarrett]

No, I neither think Ross will win, nor will USFS ever make a mistake. But if he does win; it will certainly appear the federation made a huge mistake.

I don't understand this response to my post. I didn't say you thought Ross was going to win and you said maybe the USFS will have to admit they made a mistake if he did.

 

[MacMadame]

If you want to argue that US international selections should be based solely on placement at Nationals, go ahead and do that.

Me, me! I want to argue that. And already have.

 

[olympic]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wylie

Paul's last worlds finish was 11th in 1991 and his other two finishes were 9th and 10th. 3rd and 5th in his fall events. Hardly setting the world on fire yet he won the silver medal in 1992.

Paul was not considered a consistent competitor at all. He had great nationals performances but did not skate to his potential in international events until he graduated college and devoted time exclusively to training. But I guess this scenario isn't going to happen anymore since we will use body of work to choose skaters who may have peaked prior to nationals or are unable to stand up under big event pressure.

Adding to what @Zemgirl posted upthread and since we are using Paul Wylie as a comparison point for Ross, Paul still outperformed Ross in terms of both ranking and frequency of making it to the World Championships. Ross had two World's appearance in 2011 and 2013 where he finished 11th and 14th respectively. Additionally, Paul was an Olympian in 1988. Ross's last medal of any kind in any important competition was a bronze at RC in 2015.

You bring up that with today's criteria, there never would have been a Paul Wylie moment in Albertville. But, it is not the job of the USFSA to bank on the remote possibility a skater might have a magical moment. It is their responsibility to field the best skaters and that requires looking at their recent history.

 

[becca]

When I talk about why not send a message to Jason, I am not saying he is not practicing or trying.

BUT it seems to me that if you keep doing the same thing and expecting different results. It is very possible with a stronger technical coach, he might be able to work on those issues.

Yes PCS matter BUT Pcs are also reputation based. So people's PCS are not going to grow if they are not showing up at major competitions.

 

[Willin]

@becca But he isn't doing the same thing. Kori's been bringing in different jump coaches for him to work with, and she let him go to Frank Carroll to work with him. I'm sure USFS has seen the practice videos and in person that he has landed quads and even a 4T-3T cleanly at home in practice. They know he can do it and that's why they aren't dumping him. I'm sure they (and I) would be happy to see him try going to a different coach more long term, but I don't think Jason will do that.

 

[Skittl1321]

I don't understand this response to my post. I didn't say you thought Ross was going to win and you said maybe the USFS will have to admit they made a mistake if he did.

I said it tongue in cheek (also I typed make and meant admit). Of course they would never make an announcement. But likely those officials would admit to themselves they were wrong. (Especially with the competition at 4CC this year)

 

[becca]

@becca But he isn't doing the same thing. Kori's been bringing in different jump coaches for him to work with, and she let him go to Frank Carroll to work with him. I'm sure USFS has seen the practice videos and in person that he has landed quads and even a 4T-3T cleanly at home in practice. They know he can do it and that's why they aren't dumping him. I'm sure they (and I) would be happy to see him try going to a different coach more long term, but I don't think Jason will do that.

Anyone can land something once or twice in practice. You need to be able to land it a high percentage of the time. It's possible working with Frank full time would make a difference.

He wants to stick with the coach he has had as a kid it's understandable. But it suggests that he is also not willing to do all it takes. (A part of me think the coach should step in and let go)

And as I mentioned if USFSA played tough love and did dump him it might make him make some changes. Look at Czisny. She switched coaches and yes improved dramatically once USFSA stopped holding her up and sent her a real message at Nationals.

It is not just Jason's quad that is the problem. The other jumps do as well.

So I am sorry I do think USFSA is way harder on the talented jumpers than on the Jason's and I don't think it's very fair.

 

[Dr.Siouxs]

Meh, upon rewatch USFS should have shelved Vincent, not Ross. Fabulous jumps but what a low quality skater!

 

[bardtoob]

Adding to what @Zemgirl posted upthread and since we are using Paul Wylie as a comparison point for Ross, Paul still outperformed Ross in terms of both ranking and frequency of making it to the World Championships. Ross had two World's appearance in 2011 and 2013 where he finished 11th and 14th respectively. Additionally, Paul was an Olympian in 1988. Ross's last medal of any kind in any important competition was a bronze at RC in 2015.

You bring up that with today's criteria, there never would have been a Paul Wylie moment in Albertville. But, it is not the job of the USFSA to bank on the remote possibility a skater might have a magical moment. It is their responsibility to field the best skaters and that requires looking at their recent history.

And by what criteria did Paul get onto the Olympic and World Teams? Back then, was it not purely by placement at Nationals according to the selection committee?

1988 US Nationals Paul got his first Top 3 medal at US Sr. Nationals, Silver. Paul got a berth on the Olympic Team - Age 24
1992 US Nationals Paul got his fifth Top 3 medal at US Sr. Nationals, Silver. Paul got a berth on the Olympic Team - Age 28

2018 US Nationals Ross got his fourth Top 3 medal at US Sr. Nationals, Silver. Ross did not get a berth on the Olympic Team - Age 26

2018 US Nationals Adam did not get a Top 3 medal at US Sr. Nationals, Pewter. Adam did get a berth on the Olympic Team - Age 28

How did they do at Worlds?

Paul went to Worlds 3 Times. He placed 9th, 10th, and 11th in that order.
Ross went to Worlds 2 times. He placed 11th and 14th in that order.
Adam went to Worlds 4 times. He placed 6th, 13th, 8th, and 6th in that order.

How did they do at Sr. Nationals?

Paul placed in the Top 3 at Sr. Nationals 5 times in his 11 appearances. (3 Silver, 2 Bronze)
Ross placed in the Top 3 at Sr. Nationals 4 times in his 8 appearances. (2 Silver, 2 Bronze)
Adam placed in the Top 3 at Sr. Nationals 3 times in his 8 appearances. (1 Gold, 2 Silver)

There is very little distinction between Paul's career and Ross' career. In fact, I see a lot of uncanny parallels. I included Adam's information for integrity and consistency.

ETA:

This pretty much lends itself to the idea that the Olympic Team should have been Nathan, Ross, and Adam with Vincent getting assigned to 4CC and Worlds.

 

[MacMadame]

Meh, upon rewatch USFS should have shelved Vincent, not Ross. Fabulous jumps but what a low quality skater!

Interesting that you should say that because I finally got to watch the Mens SP yesterday and Miner's performance was not that impressive. He ended up 6th because of it. So we're talking about sending him to the Olympics based on one great performance in a season of meh ones that followed several seasons of meh ones.

That said, I believe all the strategizing sports organizations do to send the "best" team rarely works out as planned so it's better to just go with the results of Nationals unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a potential medal winner who couldn't make Nationals due to a short-term problem. (Or potentially had an uncharacteristically horrible competition there though even that can be iffy.)

And I definitely believe that the person left off the team for the Olympics should go to Worlds.

Also, in the grand scheme of things Worlds is actually more important than the Olympics to USFS because that's where slots for the next year's Worlds are decided. So, if anything, they should send Miner to the Olympics and Adam to Worlds.

 

[barbk]

There was at least one Olympic selection in that general timeframe where the formal agreement was that athletes would be named to the team based on podium finish at Nationals only with no injury byes allowed. Might have been '92 or '94. I'm pretty sure it was only one time, and the rest of the time the criteria left it up to the committee.

But, Paul was selected under 6.0. Ross has to live with COP and a team event at the Olympics. The USFSA (like most other successful federations) is now considering more than Nationals. None of this should/could have been a surprise. His results were considered not as strong as Vincent or Adam's results in BOW in the timeframe that is specified.

Ross did a great job at Nationals. He's had a good career that was better than many, if not at the top. He's had many, many opportunities to compete internationally and make good friends from many countries and clubs over the years. He didn't get his fairytale ending, but few do.

 

[bardtoob]

He didn't get his fairytale ending, but few do.

Ross, who has skated for 23 years, is a four time top 3 finisher at nationals that finished 2nd Saturday, so getting an Olympic berth was not a fairy tale end. It was a very realistic possibility. He placed as well or better than at past nationals ... But you tell yourself that.

 

[olympic]

And by what criteria did Paul get onto the Olympic and World Teams? Back then, was it not purely by placement at Nationals according to the selection committee?

1988 US Nationals Paul got his first Top 3 medal at US Sr. Nationals, Silver. Paul got a berth on the Olympic Team - Age 24
1992 US Nationals Paul got his fifth Top 3 medal at US Sr. Nationals, Silver. Paul got a berth on the Olympic Team - Age 28

2018 US Nationals Ross got his fourth Top 3 medal at US Sr. Nationals, Silver. Ross did not get a berth on the Olympic Team - Age 26

2018 US Nationals Adam did not get a Top 3 medal at US Sr. Nationals, Pewter. Adam did get a berth on the Olympic Team - Age 28

How did they do at Worlds?

Paul went to Worlds 3 Times. He placed 9th, 10th, and 11th in that order.
Ross went to Worlds 2 times. He placed 11th and 14th in that order.
Adam went to Worlds 4 times. He placed 6th, 13th, 8th, and 6th in that order.

How did they do at Sr. Nationals?

Paul placed in the Top 3 at Sr. Nationals 5 times in his 11 appearances. (3 Silver, 2 Bronze)
Ross placed in the Top 3 at Sr. Nationals 4 times in his 8 appearances. (2 Silver, 2 Bronze)
Adam placed in the Top 3 at Sr. Nationals 3 times in his 8 appearances. (1 Gold, 2 Silver)

There is very little distinction between Paul's career and Ross' career. In fact, I see a lot of uncanny parallels. I included Adam's information for integrity and consistency.

ETA:

This pretty much lends itself to the idea that the Olympic Team should have been Nathan, Ross, and Adam with Vincent getting assigned to 4CC and Worlds.

Your jiggling the facts here to suit the point you want to make: Paul's world finishes save one were all in the 1992 Albertville cycle. Ross's world participation were in the previous Sochi cycle and he never cracked the top 10.

 

[bardtoob]

Your jiggling the facts here to suit the point you want to make: Paul's world finishes save one were all in the 1992 Albertville cycle. Ross's world participation were in the previous Sochi cycle and he never cracked the top 10.

And?

I never said Ross WAS Paul. I said they are similar.

Was Adam's Nationals win a fluke? I'm am going to have to rewatch the performances.

 

[olympic]

And?

Well, my friend, if you are comparing 2 skaters by world finishes and saying there is little difference between them, and thus it's a travesty that one went and the other will not go, then I will point out that there are differences, mainly that the World finishes of the one sent were much closer to his Olympic competition and thus more relevant.

 

[bardtoob]

And?

I never said Ross WAS Paul. I said they are similar.

Was Adam's Nationals win a fluke? I'm am going to have to rewatch the performances.

Well, my friend, if you are comparing 2 skaters by world finishes and saying there is little difference between them, and thus it's a travesty that one went and the other will not go, then I will point out that there are differences, mainly that the World finishes of the one sent were much closer to his Olympic competition and thus more relevant.

I hit post premature. I updated my post.

I never said Ross WAS Paul. I said they are similar.

 

[aftershocks]

Ross skated clean in both Nationals performances, something no other top man did at 2018 Nationals, no matter who doesn't like his skating or his music or his style. Again, no one is going to take away Ross' hard-won achievement nor the feeling he had leaving the ice after that standing O.

That USFS has made the memory of Ross' triumph controversial and bittersweet for fans is solely US fed's shame and their blame. IMO, the decision will come back to haunt them.

 

[barbk]

Ross' record over a 23-year span of competition is irrelevant. The factors were specifically outlined as being performance over much more limited time, with some competitions holding more weight than others. It is not a lifetime achievement award, a participation trophy given to he who has competed the longest. Heck, under that metric, we'd probably have had to send John Baldwin, Jr..

I'm sure it stings to realize that a skater you really, really like has not had great results internationally in the relevant timeframe.

 

[aftershocks]

Ross' record over a 23-year span of competition is irrelevant

And ultimately, so is this thread, along with the opinions, nasty darts, and blathering being slung around here. Nothing is going to diminish Ross' great effort and his marvelous, Olympic-worthy accomplishment.

I'm sure it stings to realize that a skater you really, really like has not had great results internationally in the relevant timeframe.

Sounds like officious, inept and pointedly cruel USFS-nattering, unsurprisingly.

Any clear-eyed fan of Ross Miner is certainly aware of his weaknesses and shortcomings, as well as his competitive record, as surely also are Ross and his coaches. And that knowledge still does not take away from Ross' 2018 Nationals accomplishment. In fact, it makes his clean and rousing performances in San Jose all the more satisfying, regardless of negative naysayers, killjoys, and sour USFS enablers.

 

[bardtoob]

Was Adam's Nationals win a fluke? I'm am going to have to rewatch the performances.

I away from where I can watch ... But wasn't Adam's win controversial over Nathan? Wasn't it just sort of dismissed because they were both RA's skaters and were expected to just sort of work it out amongst themselves at the rink?